Silent Protagonist Feature.

[DarkRPGMaster]

^This.
Manly Biceps wins more of my respect yet again.

[Raptorg]

I don't mind silent protagonists, but it bothered me in Dragon Age: Origins.

[Evilkinggumby]

Originally Posted by Raptorg

I don't mind silent protagonists, but it bothered me in Dragon Age: Origins.

I can agree with that notion. After seeing the stellar job they did with voicework on Mass Effect 1 and 2 it was strange to see it backslide a bit on DAO and have them silent again. Granted with so many starting character stories and options I guess there was no easy way to pull it off.. but I was still thrown at first.

After playing a while, and realizing it was sort of an extension of their older Neverwinter type games, it didn't feel so strange(since NWN didn't voice the MC anymore the DAO did).

But being the only silent character in a world so filled with voices is still.. odd to me.

[daveyd]

Originally Posted by Manly Biceps

The quality of storytelling and dialogue between Baldur's Gate I, Baldur's Gate II, and Planescape: Torment is vastly different, yet the stories are all told with a voiced protagonist. It, therefore, clearly is not a case of Bioware being unable to do stories with voiced protagonists well, and only excel when writing stories with silent protagonists. Planescape: Torment is considered by many people to be the pinnacle of storytelling in video game history (I personally don't agree, but that's besides the point.) so it's quite clear to me that Bioware simply has an issue with inconsistent writing quality, not that having a voiced protagonist is inferior.

Huh? I haven't played Planescape yet, but I don't recall Baldur's Gate I and II having a voiced protagonist... Yes, they say all of the standard battle lines (ex: "I could use some healing") but all of the other lines of dialogue, including those that the player chooses, are unvoiced.

That said, I do essentially agree with your other points. For me, it mainly comes down to the quality of the writing and how well they implement the dialogue choices. I have enjoyed games with both silent and voice protagonists. I love Mass Effect but I f@$#ing hate the the dialogue wheel. On more than one occasion my Shepard came off hostile when I didn't intend to be because of not knowing exactly what he would say.

I must say that as much as I do enjoy Shining Force, it is so incredibly awkward in SF3 when the protagonist responds to everything with "...."

[Manly Biceps]

Originally Posted by daveyd

Huh? I haven't played Planescape yet, but I don't recall Baldur's Gate I and II having a voiced protagonist... Yes, they say all of the standard battle lines (ex: "I could use some healing") but all of the other lines of dialogue, including those that the player chooses, are unvoiced.

I don't think "silent" in the case of this discussion is referring to whether or not there's an audio file attached. I think for the purposes within this thread, the "silent protagonist" being debated is one where the PC character's dialogue is unwritten or paraphrased.

[John Cavil]

Originally Posted by Evilkinggumby

But being the only silent character in a world so filled with voices is still.. odd to me.

Play Grand Theft Auto III. It's downright hilarious in that regard.

[kratoscar2008]

Originally Posted by Manly Biceps

I don't think "silent" in the case of this discussion is referring to whether or not there's an audio file attached. I think for the purposes within this thread, the "silent protagonist" being debated is one where the PC character's dialogue is unwritten or paraphrased.

If when you choose a desition it doesnt appear a globe text or words then is a silent protagonist.

[daveyd]

Originally Posted by Manly Biceps

I don't think "silent" in the case of this discussion is referring to whether or not there's an audio file attached. I think for the purposes within this thread, the "silent protagonist" being debated is one where the PC character's dialogue is unwritten or paraphrased.

I'm not sure that's the way other people in this thread were making the distinction. Dragon Age: Origins is being referenced as an example of game w/ a silent protagonist, despite the fact the player is constantly choosing specific dialogue options.

[Evilkinggumby]

Originally Posted by John Cavil

Play Grand Theft Auto III. It's downright hilarious in that regard.

Yeah I played that back when it was new and it also felt strange.. like you were a mute or something. I just imagined the poor guy had his jaw wired shut and then whenever you went on a homicidal killing spree (or rampage) it was just him venting his frustration to the world because he had a great voice like Phil Hartman and couldn 't use it...

Game felt a little less odd, least for a few minutes.

[kratoscar2008]

Originally Posted by John Cavil

Play Grand Theft Auto III. It's downright hilarious in that regard.

It was funny when he appaered in San Andreas and CJ make a comment about his muteness.

[Iris]

For me it just depends what they're trying to do.

Serph and Tatsuya were effective as silent protags, in my opinion, because they seem like they're actually supposed to be quiet characters.

Souji/Yu/Brotag/whatever you want to call him was weird to me as a silent protag because he felt like he should be saying more and offering more input.

[miruki]

I generally don't like silent protagonists. They feel really awkward in conversations, since all the conversation is done by everyone else and the choices you get to make barely ever represent anything I personally would say, so I can't even project my own personality into them.

I also feel a lot less for silent protags... which made the end of P3 have less of an impact to me. I didn't care for the MC at all, the game would have worked without him as well for me. Somehow the silent protag in Persona 4 didn't bother me as much tho. I was fine with Tatsuya as well (and Maya in EP) - like Iris said, they somehow seemed like they were just the silent type - but I just don't like silent protags in general, like in other non-Atlus games, like Dragon Quest VIII, killed lots of the humor and story for me.

I mean, imagine reading a book or watching a movie with a character that doesn't say anything... unless it's a big part of the story and has a good reason, it just doesn't work for me.

I don't mind UNVOICED characters much tho, of course I prefer the MC with a voice, but if he/she at least has his/her own thoughts and dialogue (like the MCs in Fate/Extra) that already does a lot for me.

[Kylaila]

Originally Posted by kratoscar2008

...

In other forums people really dislikes the silent protagonist since they see it as a way for developers being lazy to actually invest time in story telling, etc. I want to know what people think of the silent protagonist in this forum.

On that note my favorites games are persona and Growlanser both titles that are from Atlus and have silent protagonists.

I don't mind silent protagonists at all, it depends on the game. Actually, I myself think it is much more difficult to have a well-fitting silent protagonist than a talking one.
But that also depends on it, with least I mean a fully developed characters "coincidentally" being the one you play.
e.g. FFX
I didn't like him. At all. It made playing the game much worse (gotta admit, I can perfectly see why folks like the game, but I myself do not. Not so much at least)
In others, e.g. in Shadow Hearts (only the first, though) or stuff like Tales of Symphonia it worked out quite well.

But there you yourself can't make much of a decision, or imagine reasons why the character may do what he does (since it's quite obvious)
Of course, the characters fit, but it's simple that you can't change their personalites and there will always be some who can't stand them.

With silent protagonists it's (logically) the other way round.
It's difficult to have a full-voiced game without a silent protagonist standing out.
Either you have a "multiple-choice" character and can do practically everything you want to or can't do anything at all, "trapped" in the game

But I myself like them more, since you can alyways wonder about the actual intention of your character.
Nocturne is a great display of remaining aabsolutely neutral (not in the way to revert to normal)
Watching silently as so-called friends or allies are slaughtered.
I like soo much about the game.

And for games with as different ways to go as in many of the SMT-series I can't imagine something more suitable than silent protagonists.

[kratoscar2008]

Tidus kinda kills the mood of the game but the other cast make up for it. He was the last protagonist of final fantasy that allowed you to rename him thus having a partial part of him work as a "role" for the player to assume. Now all the MC have an already defined background personallity and that make it kill the little rpg feel final fantasy had. The silent protagonist is by now the only part of jrpgs that is a proper rpg element (Customization too but that is for proper rpgs). I hope that ATLUS never have the urge to give the MC of Persona or Growlanser series a personality because i dont want to withstand any character that i dont feels like it and worse when he/she/it is the MC and i have to hear it/he/she all the time.

[Saburo Hikari]

I really hope more SMT games, especially Persona games, do dialogue like Devil Survivor where your character is prompted to say something even if there's only one choice. It makes me feel like my character feels that much more involved in the story.

[kratoscar2008]

Originally Posted by Saburo Hikari

I really hope more SMT games, especially Persona games, do dialogue like Devil Survivor where your character is prompted to say something even if there's only one choice. It makes me feel like my character feels that much more involved in the story.

In the Growlanser series the MC have a dialogue to choose from very often that makes it more easy to involve in the story.

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by Manly Biceps

(Also, before you go run off and start making internet threads exclaiming, "Atlus hates silent protagonists, voiced MC in every Persona game from now on - CONFIRMED!!1!one!shift + one" I'm going to nip that in the bud and tell you that I exert absolutely no design input on any of Atlus Japan's products. This is just a debate over personal preferences amongst us gamers here.)

I'm sorry, just... what? What even prompted that that kind of response? If you think I'm one of those people that things you can just change things if I nag you enough or go crying to another forum because you get snippy - no, I'm not. I understand what localization is and actually considered it as a career option.

Then I met anime fans. Well, not the only reason there, but I get enough unwarranted hostility in the other things I've done.

Anyway, I stand by my opinion. I think Bioware is moving far, far away from the kinds of quality games that made them great - largely because they're now part of EA. Mass Effect was conceptualized before they joined up with EA, so I don't think its suffered as much, but it has been rife with inconsistency in ways their other games have not.

I think having a voiced protagonist takes time away from other characters being developed, as well as having so many characters to focus on and include based upon choice, consequence or death. Part of being ambitious is running the risks of spreading things too thin. I still think characters in ME2 could have gotten more rounding out and I suppose ME3 does that - provided they live - but some of those loose ends getting tied up don't feel as important as they should have been.

A smaller cast and a silent protagonist - to say nothing of a longer development time - seem to be better for Bioware overall.

[Manly Biceps]

Originally Posted by Foobar

I'm sorry, just... what? What even prompted that that kind of response?

That wasn't directed at you, that was a global "you" as a reference to everyone in the discussion, and it's honestly not even for you guys, but as part of the CYA routine I have to do every time I want to step slightly outside the box. That's why I make it so sarcastic.

Trust me, I don't honestly believe that any of the people who regularly frequent this board actually need this warning.

[kratoscar2008]

Im with foobar. A silent protagonist and a Little group is a winning formula for me thats why i love Persona and Growlanser. The objective of a MC in a RPG is for the player to take the role and the playable characters are a support for the developer to unfold the history. Now we have to withstand awful talking MC and the development of the others characters suffer from it since they take more time creating a unforgettable MC and leaving the rest of them (party) as a lot of chumps.

Lets keep the silent protagonist alive

[Leilee]

I don't think the silent protaganist is always the best course of action.
Radiant Historia really should be a recent testament to that.

But I do prefer entertainment in general with smaller casts, when you have 50+ playable and non-playable character stories and biographies to keep up with, it can get a little out of hand. This could be why I never got into Suikoden much. X-x

[kratoscar2008]

Originally Posted by Leilee

I don't think the silent protaganist is always the best course of action.
Radiant Historia really should be a recent testament to that.

But I do prefer entertainment in general with smaller casts, when you have 50+ playable and non-playable character stories and biographies to keep up with, it can get a little out of hand. This could be why I never got into Suikoden much. X-x

Well i liked Valkyrie Profile and there are at least 20 characters and loved the all.

[DarkRPGMaster]

That might have to do with the fact that each character is flushed out before you actually get to throw them in the party, krato. So the player gets why they've been chosen, what they went through leading to their death, and overall get to see the person behind the warrior. Meaning more characterization than we see in Suikoden (where the majority of the 108 Stars of Destiny don't even get much screen time).

[kratoscar2008]

Originally Posted by DarkRPGMaster

That might have to do with the fact that each character is flushed out before you actually get to throw them in the party, krato. So the player gets why they've been chosen, what they went through leading to their death, and overall get to see the person behind the warrior. Meaning more characterization than we see in Suikoden (where the majority of the 108 Stars of Destiny don't even get much screen time).

Yeah thats why Valkyrie 2 didnt have any good recruitable character since there isnt a background for them. I guess developing 108 characters is almost impossible.

[kratoscar2008]

While checking a Gamefaqs guide of Suikoden 5 i found an essay about the silent protagonist that i found enlightening:


In the modern era of Video Games, we have moved into a more dramatic -and
cinematic- type of narrative. At first, Games all had what are called
"Silent Protagonists," heroes who were quiet, and didn't speak a word. This
was due to the art of game production being in its infancy, in both
technological and theoretical terms. Games had little extra space for
anything that did not directly effect gameplay, and production staffs had no
time to create complex worlds or storylines.

The first Game to contain what was called a "Cinema Sequence" was Ninja
Gaiden. In this game, not only did our Protagonist have a name and
motivation, but he also spoke and interacted with other characters in the
game, and many of these other characters played a purpose in the story
beyond being enemies to defeat through gameplay.

In the early nineties, SquareSoft released Final Fantasy IV, (FF II in the
U.S.) this game had an entirely new world, wrought in detail, and characters
that had more complex motivations and dialogue. In terms of cinematics, it
was not only the game with the most dialogue, it was a game that began an
era in Role-Playing, one that we still see today.

By the time of the mid-nineties, the 16-bit era was closing, and the ESRB
ratings had been established, actually making it much easier for production
companies to release games with "mature" content. When the Sega Saturn and
Sony PlayStation hit the market, companies had much more room to store data
in a game, and the technology was beginning to grow rapidly. As such, games
began to become much more complex, and storylines became an artistic element
of production, no longer restrained by the technology. In 1997, the biggest
breakthrough in terms of this new state of the art came in the game: Metal
Gear Solid, which featured full voice-acting and cinema scenes, coupled with
complex plotlines and characters that eschewed the normal, even by what was
being produced in popular film, and had a strong, well written lead
character.

But before this breakthrough, a small, unknown game was released for Sega
Saturn, then ported over to the PlayStation. This game was Suikoden. It had
all trappings of a standard 16-bit era RGP, a silent protagonist, and epic
realm to explore, and many other things that made it seem, at a glance, a
throw-back to the earlier, pre-Final Fantasy IV era. Until you played the
game.

Quickly, all of the cliched elements were thoroughly and precisely
deconstructed. The evil you sought to banish was, in fact, not so evil, and
the characters were a complex mix of good intentions, bad outcomes, and
jaded greed that used more realistic psychology to interpret character than
had been previously been used. The "Bad Guys" were not bad simply because
they were bad, they had thoughts and ideologies of their own, and even if
these ideologies lead them down the wrong path, they still were portrayed as
understandable, if not ideal. The "Good Guys" were not always driven to
serve a vague sense of what is "Righteous." But had many differing reasons
for their actions, some less than noble. Even the most noble new that on
some level, killing other people was wrong, and they fought only to deny the
fate that they were handed to build a brighter future for their nation, even
if it meant to commit a sin.

Amongst all this complexity, all this psychology, all this realism, one thing
was in stark contrast: the Silent Protagonist. Why? with such powerful
characters, and a well-written story, why leave the protagonist to silence?
Why not make him speak a lofty speech? have a discourse on what is right or
wrong? about the nature of Good and Evil? Why not make him as complex as the
rest of the game's cast?

Oddly, it seemed to work very well. But why? Allow me to answer that question
with another question:

During this walkthrough, I often said things like: "X character will tell
you. . ." "You will be forced. . ." etc etc. I even sometimes used the
collective article "We": Before we do this. . .

Did that seem weird? From a grammatical standpoint, I should have said: Take
the Prince here. X character will tell the Prince. . . I used the term "You"
in place of "the Prince" often. Did that seem natural to you? did you even
notice I was doing it?

In 1973 a man named Bruno Bettlehiem published a book called: The Uses of
Enchantment. Mr. Bettlehiem was a survivor of German Concentration Camps and
a renowned expert int he field of Child Psychology. He dedicated his life to
helping severely traumatized children through his practice and study of
psychology. In The Uses of Enchantment, Bettlehiem lays the groundwork for
what would later become the theory of Allegorical Projection.

Essentially, the book details Bettlehiem's work using common Fairy Tales to
treat and psychoanalyze traumatized children, and how these very same Fairy
Tales that we all learned as a child were actually powerful psychological
enablers that educate children both emotionally and morally, long before the
child has even formed conscious ideas about Emotions and Morals. He found
that children often completely ignore the gender, race, and nationality of a
Fairy Tale character. They even ignore the personality traits that many of
these characters possess. The main character is a Fairy Tale is not even
really a character at all, but a representation of the child itself.

To explain: the child does not see, say, Hansel and Gretel as a German
Brother and Sister, but instead sees them both as a single individual.
Hansel and Gretel, instead of becoming characters, they become Mirrors. They
allow the child to Project their own feelings, their own fears, their own
insecurities, their own Image onto them. Cinderella is not a pretty girl,
but a person who is unjustly oppressed and must struggle against that
oppression until the day that they are set free from bondage. Just like how
children often feel -and in the cases of Abused and Neglected children-
often are unjustly oppressed.

What is an Allegory? ha ha ha, well, the old joke in the English Department
where I study is that if you ask ten college professors what an Allegory is,
you will get twenty-five different answers. At its most basic, an Allegory
is something that stands in for more than one other thing. It is something
that stands for something bigger and more difficult to put into words. Yes,
essentially it is a metaphor, but a BIG metaphor. For example: Cinderella is
not Cinderella, but she stands in for a good person who is treated unjustly.

Fairy Tales have unique quality to them though, in that they are not only
allegory, but they also allow a person -of whatever age- to Project their
own, personal feelings onto them. Thus, they become a two-way Mirror, to not
only allow one to see them self, but also to allow one to see the world.

With this in mind, think of the Suikodens. The silent protagonist now becomes
not only a way to see the world, but a way to see yourself. Really, there is
no hero character, the heroes of Suikoden do not even have names. It is just
you, and who your project onto the blank slate of the so-called "Hero," is
not just you, but your idea of yourself and your idea of what is "Right."

This is why the Suikodens appeal so strongly to intelligent and moral people,
because they allow for a much more fulfilling experience if the player is a
more fulfilled person.

When I say "you" during this walkthrough, I meant just that. Because there is
no Freyjadour Falenas. All of the situations, all of the dialogue choices
all of the decisions you made were just a vehicle for you to see the Prince
as yourself and to effect the world that you project onto him.

Needless to say, the fact that these games could achieve that level of
Allegorical Projection requires either some serious talent or some serious
luck. I, for one, being a published author (not at GameFAQs, but actually,
really published in print) and being fully trained in Literature and
Literary Theory, could not even write something that required such a
delicate balance and nuanced style. It is tempting, even as a huge fan of
the series, to write this off as a mere coincidence, that the makers of the
game stumbled onto some kind of writing that allowed for Allegorical
Projection unknowingly, and that they just followed a tradition in gaming.
However, considering the deep level of character and psychological reality,
it become hard to justify that position.

Continue...................

[kratoscar2008]

Take Suikoden IV. The original creator of the Suikoden series is a man named
Mr. Murayama. When Suikoden III was nearing the final stages of production,
Mr. Murayama left Konami. Why, no one is certain. But Suikoden III suffered
greatly in the final stages because of his absence.

Suikoden IV came a few years later. This time the game was written and
directed by one Junko Kawano. While it had the same silent protagonist as
Suikoden I and II, it lacked Murayama's depth of story and character. At the
beginning of the game, you are introduced to the main character and his
friend, Snow. Soon, it becomes clear that Snow is not only a coward, but a
cheat as well. And after that is revealed you end up asking yourself: "Why
is this guy friends with Snow?"

Let me repeat that if you did not catch it: "Why is _this guy_ friends with
Snow?" That is, at that point you have distanced yourself from the
protagonist, and can no longer use him as an allegory nor a vehicle. You no
longer see the hero as yourself, but rather, a strange, quiet kid who is a
bad judge of character.

I often picked on Suikoden IV in this walkthrough, but really, it actually a
good game. It does however lack the superlative storytelling and characters
of the other Suikoden games though. The reason of course because Junko
Kawano lacks any real talent in writing that was present in Suikoden I, II,
and III.

In Suikoden III, there was no silent protagonist. Instead, the protagonist -
called the Flame Champion- tells the player that people must begin to fight
for themselves. That the world is not the responsibility of some mythical
hero of immense power, but instead the responsibility -and the dream- of
everyone, and everyone must work together to protect it.

To me, Suikoden III represents Murayama's change in writing style. He was no
longer trying to construct an allegorical vehicle, but was instead turning
the responsibility for effecting the world where it belonged, onto your
shoulders.

I could go on. But I will leave it there. You have now gotten at least a
taste of why I find these games so fascinating. And why, fourteen years
after playing the first Suikoden, I still love them every bit as much.


Now to play Suikoden 5

[Karkarov]

Yeah good old suikoden 1 where you played as a punk kid who never spoke and Maithu was the real main character. I still remember my reaction to one scene even now where the army went out on "drills" only for it to turn into a full blown assault action. The main character acts surprised in the sense than they say ".....?" and Maithu simply bothers to tell him he didn't want to let the so called general know about the plan for security reasons. Can't have the leader of the army (supposedly) actually know what is going on, he might blab about it if he wasn't a mute.

End result, anyone who views the main character as an actual personality is wearing rose colored glasses. The lead of the game was a walking trope except for the fact that he used tonfa for some horrid reason. Anytime something important was said or done someone else did it while the main character just happened to be standing there.

[kratoscar2008]

http://www.destructoid.com/the-futur...n-160347.phtml

i couldnt have agreed more. This guy understand the concept of the silent protagonist.

[Raptorg]

I loved the #### out of Suikoden V.

I played the game solely through renting the game, I was heartbroken when they didn't want to sell it to me because I really wanted to play it again.(And they stopped stocking the game even though it was released not long before I played it).

Not sure why I never got it second hand from ebay or whatever.. Maybe it was hard to find. That sounds plausible.

I loved that game so much, I even called my dog Miakis.

[NG14916]

I prefer non-silent protagonists because I'd rather have a main character with a personality and dialogue than be the main character myself. It also breaks my suspension of disbelief when other characters get really emotional over the MC, like in Persona 3. Perhaps Persona 3 is a bad example, though, since it had a habit of blurring the line between an MC with your personality and an MC with his own personality. In Xenoblade Chronicles, on the other hand, the main character's motivations are convincing because he's not a silent protagonist; he actually talked to Fiora and had his own personality. That said, Atlus usually does a good job with silent protagonists. Devil Survivor was a good example of that since the MC seemed to have his own personality despite not saying anything by himself because of the particular dialogue options presented; sometimes the options barely differed because it would have been too far outside the bounds of the MC's personality for him to say anything beyond those. Strange Journey also worked well because the MC didn't have any backstory and you chose all of his actions for him. Basically, if the MC is going to be silent, either he should still have a defined personality XOR every action should be determined by the player. I can't empathize with a protagonist who is a mix of both, like in Persona 3, because then I don't really know him.

[Foobar]

Originally Posted by kratoscar2008

http://www.destructoid.com/the-futur...n-160347.phtml

i couldnt have agreed more. This guy understand the concept of the silent protagonist.

I call bias. They call themselves The Silent Protagonist! Of course a silent protagonist would say they're the best. Regardless, I think everyone should follow that blog, bookmark it and like it bunches because it's totally not mine and someone else's. They also have a Teddie avatar and Raidou and Demi-Fiend in their personal blog's header image.

The Silent Protagonist must be an awesome person.

Shameless totally-different person promotion aside I think Metroid Other M, the recent Tomb Raider controversies and the whole Mass Effect 3 debacle have started to expose the weaknesses and limits of the voiced protagonist, in addition to how some developers have grossly underestimating the power of agency (or the protagonist as a "vessel").

Even though I think there is certainly room for a writer to influence Samus, Lara or Shepard there absolutely must be an understanding of how players envision a character. If you're really smart - like Hideo Kojima - you can betray expectations without damaging the protagonist.