Love Plus

[Ladybird]

Not that I don't love RPGs or anything, but we have already so many Japanese RPGs, and Japan has some other really unique genres we have never seen. I for one would be very curious to try a game that is all about building relationships rather than killing stuff. Love Plus seems to be the most advanced dating sim out there right now. I know it's a long shot, but I can always ask, right?

[AdrianMorales]

I love adventure games and all of the sub genres that it includes, but Love Plus has left a bitter taste in my mouth after the whole 'I have married my Love Plus DS game' incident. I could never play this game and not think about some weirdo out there making love plus with his DS. I'm weird too, but this is just sick and very, very wrong.

[dorkatlarge]

I don't think Atlus and Konami have ever worked together to localize each others' games.

Something which only a few fans might know: there's a pair of programs for 3G cellphones which is surprisingly similar to LovePlus. They're called V-Girl and V-Boy, and as far as I can tell, they've existed in English for several years.

A few people are slowly, quietly creating their own LovePlus translation. There's no way to guarantee that it will be finished, but current progress is estimated to be 18%.

...Love Plus has left a bitter taste in my mouth after the whole 'I have married my Love Plus DS game' incident...

Some fans take their interests way, way too far. Crazy fans almost always get media attention, and make any relatively normal fan embarrassed from their behavior. There are weird, attention-seeking fans for an awfully large number of things.

[Hraesvelgr]

They have to make money off of the things they release, though.

/thread

[Ladybird]

I love adventure games and all of the sub genres that it includes, but Love Plus has left a bitter taste in my mouth after the whole 'I have married my Love Plus DS game' incident. I could never play this game and not think about some weirdo out there making love plus with his DS. I'm weird too, but this is just sick and very, very wrong.

It's just a game. That one guy made headlines because what he did was something unique. What about those thousands of other players who didn't make it into news?

I've seen obsessive weirdo fans for a lot of things. If you can't touch anything that someone else has a weird obsession with, you can't watch any anime or play JRPGs.

And heck, if the guy is happy with his imaginary girlfriend, who am I to say it's wrong? It's not like he's out there hurting anybody, and I don't think the girl minds. :tongue:

[DamageCity]

Why even suggest this?

[Ladybird]

Why not? I'd like to play it.

[landlock]

I don't think Atlus and Konami have ever worked together to localize each others' games.

Konami Europe published Hellnight which was published by Atlus in Japan. I think that's the only time.

I'd play it as I'm curious. Though to be fair I already play visual novels on the PC so I'm biased.

[Macheath]

I'd love to play this. The artwork looks great <3.

[pajamavamp]

I believe that Love Plus would be a success as a North American release. I believe Atlus has the best infrastructure to support a release of this game so for the rest of the post I will assume acquiring the rights from Konami as a possibility.

Love Plus achieved plenty of US press for the guy who married his DS, Love Plus also achieved strong sales in Japan and critical praise. This is a high profile game, the announcement of a US localization would be surely covered by all game sites (IGN, Kotaku, etc) leading to plenty of essentially free marketing dollars, which Atlus lacks typically when supporting their releases. Games Discussion forums would be alight with interest, debate, all of it would be press towards the game's release. These factors lead me to believe that if any Dating Simulator had a chance of commercial success in the North America it would be this game.

Why Atlus? Atlus has taken chances on localization before, bringing quirky titles like Zeno Clash, Rock of Ages and Kenko Bancho: BadAss Rumble. Love Plus could only enhance Atlus' catalog. I believe Love Plus would have a much greater chance at success than some of this publisher's recent releases and also a greater chance than other suggestions on this board. It has a true differentiating factor in its genre, it would have no competitors in the market. I believe like Trauma Center this game could continue to sell long after its initial release as it's unlikely it would encounter any genre competitors for some time.

Market opportunity, high visibilty, critical acclaim, this game has the factors to be a success. Any parties that monitor these suggestion boards, please take note and seriously consider what would be a smart publishing move.

[KingOfPrinces]

Love plus seems like a great game and I wouldn't mind seeing it localized.

Theres also this game called "Marriage Royale" that seems like it would be fun too.

[Enzeru]

Now that Love Plus+ is out, I have renewed excitement for it and I really want someone to bring it over. Especially with the ebil copy protection.

[tefting]

I'd definitely buy it if it was localized. I like Harvest Moon / Rune Factory games largely because of the relationship building elements and it would be great to finally play a pure dating sim.

[Zoltor]

Not that I don't love RPGs or anything, but we have already so many Japanese RPGs, and Japan has some other really unique genres we have never seen. I for one would be very curious to try a game that is all about building relationships rather than killing stuff. Love Plus seems to be the most advanced dating sim out there right now. I know it's a long shot, but I can always ask, right?

No offence, but I think that's one of the genres that really should be left in Japan. However I would be all for the visual novels or whatnot, specifically the ones based on games that were already localized/ported over, but others could be good as well(like the ones that animes were based off of).

[pajamavamp]

Zoltor it would make a profit for whatever company chooses to localize it. That's what matter. To be honest the unconventional genre is only a plus, the free marketing from games news websites alone would bring more attention to the title than a typical Atlus release garners.

This game should be best left in Japan only if a smart localization company doesn't feel like making money and enhancing its profile.

[Archie55]

I would buy this!! Yes, please!!!!! But if, IF, it came stateside, I'm willing to bet that Atlus wouldn't bring it over.
And I'm not exaclty sure that it will ever come over. If it does, then I'll sell my old DS and buy a special edition with this, if there is one. If not, I'll buy a pink one and this.

[Sanctine]

Zoltor it would make a profit for whatever company chooses to localize it. That's what matter. To be honest the unconventional genre is only a plus, the free marketing from games news websites alone would bring more attention to the title than a typical Atlus release garners.

No, not really. This type of game would bomb stateside.

[DamageCity]

Even if some company managed to fork over the licensing costs for this game, no one would buy it and it would fall victim to the DS's rampant piracy.

[redrighthand]

Gee, there are all these replies condemning games with relationship aspects. Little-acknowledged fact: Such games have been produced in English by American companies and other such groups since the mid-nineties, and appear to have quite a bit of success. A number of recent RPGs (Tales of Symphonia and Riviera, for instance) also have relationship values as an important game mechanic. Mysteriously, this seems to be quite popular and well-liked in RPGs, at least from what I've heard.

It may not be as prevalent as fandom for FPSes or other "traditional" game genres, but the success of companies like JAST and all those English-patching fan groups says games like Love Plus are going to have an audience if they get brought over.

[DamageCity]

Who is JAST?

and English-patching fan groups make money?

[four_black_hearts]

Light sim elements can help players become more invested in characters, while full on relationship simulators are both creepy and weird!

Also, having "an audience" and actually "being profitable" are two very different things!

[Olethros]

I agree.

@DC: JAST translates Japanese porn games for English speaking Japanophiles. I have no idea about their finances, but I would be skeptical about throwing the term "successful" around in reference to them.

Also, I'd like to think he wasn't implying that fan groups are profitable.

[Phoenix_Apollo]

Light sim elements can help players become more invested in characters, while full on relationship simulators are both creepy and weird!

Also, having "an audience" and actually "being profitable" are two very different things!

Whoa, there. You're sounding like you're literally afraid of these games getting translated. You're saying that those types of things are wierd? Try telling that to the millions that watch Soap Operas and read romance novels. Hell, Sakura Wars had it, and it wasn't bad at all.

You know, if someone tried marketing it to that crowd, these relationship games could actually sell well.

[pajamavamp]

Zoltor it would make a profit for whatever company chooses to localize it. That's what matter. To be honest the unconventional genre is only a plus, the free marketing from games news websites alone would bring more attention to the title than a typical Atlus release garners.

No, not really. This type of game would bomb stateside.


Bomb stateside? You're missing the point.

Love Plus would sell copies, I believe the amount would be well enough to cover the localizing costs and distribution. Of course it doesn't have to sell Mario numbers, look at Atlus' entire catalog, modest sales all around, but enough to keep the company going successfully. Love Plus would be an above average performer for them. There's minimal risk in publishing this title in the US and a good enough upside to make it a smart move.

[Sanctine]

Light sim elements can help players become more invested in characters, while full on relationship simulators are both creepy and weird!

Also, having "an audience" and actually "being profitable" are two very different things!

Word.

@DC: JAST translates Japanese porn games for English speaking Japanophiles. I have no idea about their finances, but I would be skeptical about throwing the term "successful" around in reference to them.

Also, I'd like to think he wasn't implying that fan groups are profitable.

I seem to remember a story about them being in bankruptcy protection a while back. I might be thinking of something else, though.

Bomb stateside? You're missing the point.

Love Plus would sell copies, I believe the amount would be well enough to cover the localizing costs and distribution. Of course it doesn't have to sell Mario numbers, look at Atlus' entire catalog, modest sales all around, but enough to keep the company going successfully. Love Plus would be an above average performer for them. There's minimal risk in publishing this title in the US and a good enough upside to make it a smart move.

I think you missed mine. My point was that it wouldn't.

[pajamavamp]

Light sim elements can help players become more invested in characters, while full on relationship simulators are both creepy and weird!

Also, having "an audience" and actually "being profitable" are two very different things!

Word.

@DC: JAST translates Japanese porn games for English speaking Japanophiles. I have no idea about their finances, but I would be skeptical about throwing the term "successful" around in reference to them.

Also, I'd like to think he wasn't implying that fan groups are profitable.

I seem to remember a story about them being in bankruptcy protection a while back. I might be thinking of something else, though.

Bomb stateside? You're missing the point.

Love Plus would sell copies, I believe the amount would be well enough to cover the localizing costs and distribution. Of course it doesn't have to sell Mario numbers, look at Atlus' entire catalog, modest sales all around, but enough to keep the company going successfully. Love Plus would be an above average performer for them. There's minimal risk in publishing this title in the US and a good enough upside to make it a smart move.

I think you missed mine. My point was that it wouldn't.

Any talk of hentai games and the like are irrelevant, Love Plus was rated C by CERO in Japan relative equivilant to the ESRB's Teen rating. End of any actual controversy.

Irrational personal distaste at Love Plus does not have any bearing on how the game might perform.

Feel free to make your opinions heard but any more pontifications as to a reasonable prediction of this game's performance should be backed by actual arguments.

[Sanctine]

Feel free to make your opinions heard but any more pontifications as to a reasonable prediction of this game's performance should be backed by actual arguments.

1) The DS is an oversaturated market and games on the platform tend to get pirated a lot.
2) The licensing costs would probably be high.
3) There is a lot of dialogue, all of which will need to be translated (which takes time and money).
4) There would be no way to market this game (Visual novel? Girlfriend simulator? Even the best agencies would have a hard time classifying this one)
5) Most people would probably be embarrassed to buy this game in a store. Most would resort to buying online or pirating.
6) No actual gameplay.
7) Potential for bad publicity.

There are probably a dozen other factors.

Hentai or not, the idea of carrying a virtual girlfriend around with you is not exactly a selling point for most people. I'm pretty sure this won't even generate a profit, never mind "be an above average performer".

Irrational personal distaste at Love Plus does not have any bearing on how the game might perform.

When it is shared by the majority, well yes it does.

[pajamavamp]

Excellent I'm glad you chose a discussion.

You're fourth point negates your first. The DS is oversaturated in certain genres, yes, but Love Plus is of a genre and offers gameplay not currently being offered on the platform.

Licensing and Localization costs, I can't speak personally to those and remain an unknown cost, however based on their current catalog, Atlas no doubt has an infrastructure that would make this a doable project.

Whether they buy it online or retail those people will buy it, and as to piracy Atlus has been one of the best companies in providing value to their retail offerings, in the forms of extras, soundtracks, etc. I don't see an increased threat of piracy any more than Atlus already has to deal with.

As I highlighted earlier Love Plus is a tame experience, there would be no bad press, look what Aksys did with Record of Agarest War, ridiculous compared to Love Plus, and there were no pitchforks and mobs. Websites would certainly take note of Love Plus being localized but this would serve mainly as a boon to the game's sales, raising important visibility.

Look at other games Atlas has put out, things like Princess Debut and Zeno Clash, not to my personal taste, probably not to the majority's personal tastes, however if these games can find an audience they succeed, Love Plus would have a large enough audience to succeed as a retail release by Atlus

[daveyd]

4) There would be no way to market this game (Visual novel? Girlfriend simulator? Even the best agencies would have a hard time classifying this one)
5) Most people would probably be embarrassed to buy this game in a store. Most would resort to buying online or pirating.
6) No actual gameplay.
7) Potential for bad publicity.

There are probably a dozen other factors.

Hentai or not, the idea of carrying a virtual girlfriend around with you is not exactly a selling point for most people. I'm pretty sure this won't even generate a profit, never mind "be an above average performer".


What are basing any of this on? Has there ever been a game similar to Love Plus released in the US that bombed?

There haven't really been any pure dating sims released in the US that come to mind, but the games where romance plays a big role seem to have done quite well. The Harvest Moon / Rune Factory series (of which dating sim / relationship building is a huge part) is quite popular in the States. Sakura Wars did well even on the (near dead) PS2 platform. There must be a reason that more and more RPGs these days include romance options...

Your insinuation that the only people interested in this game would be looking for a substitute to a real girlfriend is just silly. Even though the protagonist is male I think a lot of female gamers would be very interested in this type of game. Actually if it is localized I'd buy it for my girlfriend as I'm sure it would be right up her ally.

No actual gameplay? Why do you say that? Because there's no fighting / killing?

You're grasping at straws. There's no reason to believe people interested in this game would be too embarrassed to buy it legally... People buy lots of far more embarrassing things; Porn for instance. This game would be rated E for everyone.

Pirating DS games is pretty easy but a significant number of people still buy the games because they want to see that type of game made again... Fans of dating sims would be ensuring that another similar game never came to the US if they pirated. If anything, I think that would make this game less likely to be pirated.

Again what are basing any of this on, other than your personal dislike for these type of games?

[Sanctine]

Again what are basing any of this on, other than your personal dislike for these type of games?

Intuition.

[ShadowRaskolnik]

While it would be interesting to see this game released I have to agree that it probably won't prove to be as popular or profitable in the long run here.

[Phoenix_Apollo]

I personally wonder how "no real gameplay" really makes a difference here. I mean, look at the Ace Attorney series. That's basically just a bunch of virtual novels with some puzzle solving and "Find the oddity" investigation bits. The only real killing or fighting is done between the characters during their interactions, which is uncontrolable from a player prospective.

And before you brush it off as some sort of anomaly, you'd have to wonder why these games sold in the first place. Apparently, people liked it enough to tell it to their friends, and their friends bought it and popularity spread, leading to sites like Newgrounds becoming famous for it's viral videos based on the series. The games became popular because people liked what the game presented, and it was more like a visual novel more than anything.

What's to say then that Love Plus won't have the same effect? If the story is told well enough, the characters likable, it will find it's audience. Hell, any controversy might even help sales if it's publicized enough (like GTA, Manhunt, etc).

And I'm basing what I say on facts, by the way, not personal opinions. The fact is that, if Love Plus is given the chance, it will have the opportunity to find it's audience if it's made well enough and translated well enough, a la Phoenix Wright. Like I said, millions of people love their romance novels and Soap Operas, how is this any different?

[pajamavamp]

Again the game doesn't have to sell millions, or even hundreds of thousands to be a hit for Atlus. As far as localizing games go and the costs and risks associated, for the reasons stated so far in this thread I believe Love Plus is about as safe a bet as a company like Atlus can make.

[Olethros]

I was about to join in on this wonderful discussion when, of all things, reality occured to me. I thought to myself: Atlus has become as succesful as it is by making smart and savvy decisions. Sanctine knows this. So, all of the justifications, pleas, wishings, etc. won't alter the natural order of things: games like this stay in Japan for a reason. ;-)

[pajamavamp]

Gotta love the "Cus it won't" line of reasoning on whether or not this game would be successful. No one has competently argued against the reasons for bringing this game over.

This game may or may not be localized in the end, but the fact is, if you have a knowledge of the American games market it's clear that there is a place for this game.

[Olethros]

Gotta love the "Cus it won't" line of reasoning on whether or not this game would be successful. No one has competently argued against the reasons for bringing this game over.

This game may or may not be localized in the end, but the fact is, if you have a knowledge of the American games market it's clear that there is a place for this game.

That's a bold statement. Bold enough to bait me in, so consider your fishing line bitten.

First, comparisons to Phoenix Wright are silly. Americans are hugely drawn to legal and courtroom dramas. Just look at any network and you'll find a slew of legal drama shows. The cartoony aesthetics of the games also allow for a large audience approval. Parents won't yell OBJECTION! They probably won't buy a dating sim for their children and/or mom and pop however.

Also, the argument that some RPG's have been playing with the idea of light relationship sim elements is invalid as it's a tacked on piece to a much greater whole. There is no way to discern that this minor element is indeed the reasoning behind some of their successes. Therefore, for all anyone really knows, those parts were universally hated but tolerated because the whole was better than the sum of it's parts.

Soap operas also fail as a valid example. Real life actors in a drama for adults. Not quite the same thing as virtual cartoon females for young males and/or hopelessly single adult males. I suppose I should add in anime loving lesbians as well, although I bet that's a small market share. ANYWAY, bored housewives dreaming of romance in the afternoon are a whole different market.

I could go on and on but I've been down this road ssssoooo many times now. Basically, I just wanted to get the point across that just because I haven't re-argued my stance for the umpteenth time doesn't mean I don't have far more valid reasons than "cuz". :p

[Clephas]

Gotta love the "Cus it won't" line of reasoning on whether or not this game would be successful. No one has competently argued against the reasons for bringing this game over.

This game may or may not be localized in the end, but the fact is, if you have a knowledge of the American games market it's clear that there is a place for this game.

That's a bold statement. Bold enough to bait me in, so consider your fishing line bitten.

First, comparisons to Phoenix Wright are silly. Americans are hugely drawn to legal and courtroom dramas. Just look at any network and you'll find a slew of legal drama shows. The cartoony aesthetics of the games also allow for a large audience approval. Parents won't yell OBJECTION! They probably won't buy a dating sim for their children and/or mom and pop however.

Also, the argument that some RPG's have been playing with the idea of light relationship sim elements is invalid as it's a tacked on piece to a much greater whole. There is no way to discern that this minor element is indeed the reasoning behind some of their successes. Therefore, for all anyone really knows, those parts were universally hated but tolerated because the whole was better than the sum of it's parts.

Soap operas also fail as a valid example. Real life actors in a drama for adults. Not quite the same thing as virtual cartoon females for young males and/or hopelessly single adult males. I suppose I should add in anime loving lesbians as well, although I bet that's a small market share. ANYWAY, bored housewives dreaming of romance in the afternoon are a whole different market.

I could go on and on but I've been down this road ssssoooo many times now. Basically, I just wanted to get the point across that just because I haven't re-argued my stance for the umpteenth time doesn't mean I don't have far more valid reasons than "cuz". :p

Olethros definitely has a point about the courtroom drama thing, unfortunately. I can't see this becoming a huge success here... about the best Atlus could hope for is a small amount of profit from a limited production run, as depressing as that sounds. The visual novel crowd - sad as it might be - is pretty focused on the consoles and pc rather than the portables... and that isn't even mentioning Love Plus' biggest disadvantage... a weak story. The game's plot is - to be blunt - second to the aspect of molding the girls to the player's tastes... and to be honest after trying the Japanese version out, I found it a bit distasteful.

I'm a huge VN fan, but this kind of sim... *Clephas shakes his head*

[pajamavamp]

I didn't mention who the market for this game might be (Ace Attorney fans, women, etc) that was another poster.

The clear market opportunity is in the game's unique sim elements. There are plenty of J-Gamers (fans of japanese developed games) whom this game could draw. In fact I believe it's the very thing that would separate a game like Love Plus from the many New IP japanese games (rpgs, strategy, etc) that companies like Atlus, Xseed and Aksys release.

I would bet, and it'd be a safe bet, that this game would outperform games like Record of Agarest War, Disgaea Infinite, Mimana Iyar Chronicles, Hexyz Force and the like. If companies like Atlus invest in these games it would be a smart move to invest in Love Plus.

[four_black_hearts]

What are your sources for the "costs and risks" associated with the localization of something like this? Or what is or isn't a "safe bet" for a company like ATLUS? If anyone, wouldn't Konami be your best bet for this game, as they already own the rights to it, and have a larger pool of resources? Nobody is personally attacking you or your desire to see this game localized, I just think there's a bigger picture that you're missing.

[pajamavamp]

Atlus is a publisher associated with quality and Love Plus meshes better with its catalog of games. Atlus USA exists in some part to meet this market need, they find games where the original publisher can not or will not bring a game to the US market, they identify opportunities and make it happen. A company like Atlus would be best positioned to market and release Love Plus.

NPD sales numbers are easily available online, look at Atlus' catalog and its performance, for reasons stated earlier Love Plus would sell enough to fall right in line with Atlus' successes. Would it sell as much as Demon Souls or Trauma Center 1? No. It also doesn't need to.

[Olethros]

Atlus is a publisher associated with quality and Love Plus meshes better with its catalog of games. Atlus USA exists in some part to meet this market need, they find games where the original publisher can not or will not bring a game to the US market, they identify opportunities and make it happen. A company like Atlus would be best positioned to market and release Love Plus.

NPD sales numbers are easily available online, look at Atlus' catalog and its performance, for reasons stated earlier Love Plus would sell enough to fall right in line with Atlus' successes. Would it sell as much as Demon Souls or Trauma Center 1? No. It also doesn't need to.

You can't possibly know that for sure. It's easy to say when it's not your money or corporate reputation on the line.

[Clephas]

Also, I can't see this outselling Agarest under any circumstances.

[pajamavamp]

Of course I can't know it for sure, I don't have a crystal ball. However, with all the factors contributing to a possible release of this game that have been discussed I can say it with much more certainty than of many of the other games that Atlus or other's choose to publish.

Risk management is the name of the game for publishers, when risk is assessed the benefits outweigh the costs for Love Plus.

[pajamavamp]

Also, I can't see this outselling Agarest under any circumstances.

Did you see what Agarest sold? Look it up, pretty bad.

[Clephas]

... dude, a jrpg selling 10,000 copies in the US is officially a success, if a small one. Since the 360 version alone managed around 80,000, and that isn't even mentioning the PSN version, I'd say it sold pretty well. You seem to have very odd standards of what 'selling well' is. Love Plus would probably barely make it to the 10,000 mark (if they got lucky)... and most of that would be made up of people 'in the know' or people who were already addicted to the straight dating sim. To put it bluntly, the genre doesn't have a strong fanbase on portable systems here, unlike in Japan. And most of them are PSP-holders, since the majority of the decent VNs on portables ended up on the PSP over there and since the PSP is region-free, they can just get the jp version and play it that way if they want to.

Edit: Though I'll admit that it would be nice if they could get localized, but SCEA's ban on games that 'aren't games' by their standards makes that pretty much impossible. And by what NISA said in that recent interview on Siliconera, it looks like that policy has if anything gotten worse.

[pajamavamp]

80,000? If you're using VGChartz that data is not reliable.

[Clephas]

The very fact that you felt the need to say that says you were looking there in the first place. And in any case, even if it was half that, it would still be highly successful for a jrpg. Most end up hovering between 15,000-30,000, with games like the FF-series being the only ones that could be called hits by conventional standards. And as I said, Love Plus might not even make it to 10,000... and even that is unlikely, considering that I'd give it a pretty abysmal review, personally.

[pajamavamp]

Wasn't looking there until that number got posted, 80,000 is way off.

Love Plus would easily do 10,000 first month alone.

[Clephas]

... again saying it without any basis. Look, even though VNs do have a much stronger fanbase than they used to in the US, the dating sim form of VN has if anything become sidelined, and that is what this is. The strength of your love for the genre isn't going to magically increase the number of people in the target demographic. As I said before, the majority of VN fans end up focusing on the consoles or the PC with the PSP coming far behind and the DS even farther. That is because the selection on the DS is the least varied and has the fewest number of good VNs of the platforms. Though the DS does have a penchant for unusual game types, that actually translates to serious VNs not ending up on it very often.

The best VNs are mostly PC-exclusive and those that aren't usually end up on the PS3, 360, and/or the PSP. There are some exceptions like Higurashi, but you have to recall that Higurashi is itself an unusual game for the genre, a doujin game that gained enormous popularity almost by chance and has ended up on almost all the systems at one time or another. Love Plus, to be blunt, has almost no real plot, and for a VN that is a fatal flaw -especially in the eyes of US VN-fans. The aspect of molding the girls into what you want them to be is attractive to a certain type of person, but in the end, without a strong supporting plot, the game can't be called anything else but weak.

Do you want me to go on? I'm not going to post anymore in this thread, because it is just getting to be too troublesome. To be honest, the main reason I don't want this coming over is because it is the kind of game that gives VNs in general a bad name, and it is for the same reason I wish that Growlanser: HOW had never been localized. I want VNs that are truly worth playing to come over here. I refuse to settle for third-rate.

[Olethros]

Man, this is going nowhere fast. Valiant attempt dear friend Clephas but I imagine that your efforts will be fruitless. This guy isn't going to see reason and he certainly isn't going to convince anyone that isn't already interested in these types of media (better term than game, I think).

I'm done here. (oh, how many times have I said this now? :p)

[pajamavamp]

In earlier posts I provided substantial basis to the statements I'm making. It also doesnt matter if it's good, my point was that it would sell.

The DS will soon become the best selling platform of all time, eclipsing PS2, even if principled Visual Novel fans skip Love Plus the game will sell enough.

Thanks very much for taking the time to discuss this, in the end I believe you're wrong.

[Sanctine]

Man, this is going nowhere fast. Valiant attempt dear friend Clephas but I imagine that your efforts will be fruitless. This guy isn't going to see reason and he certainly isn't going to convince anyone that isn't already interested in these types of media (better term than game, I think).

Why do you think I gave up? :)

[Rednusander]

Bottom line: Nobody in this thread knows the numbers. Unless companies reveal specific numbers in quarterly earnings statements, which admittedly, has been known to happen, throwing out statements like "since the 360 version managed 80,000" and "Love Plus would easily do 10,000 first month alone" are unfortunately, based so far in the fantasy elements these games came from, you may as well be rolling a D20 and multiplying the result by the number of noodles in a package of top ramen.

Gaming publishers are very secretive about their numbers; it's not like the movie industry.

[Enzeru]

To relax the mood a bit, why don't we all play RE: Alistair (http://www.sakevisual.com/realistair/index.html)? It's a fun little OEL otome game, and very good for a free game, so if you like games like Love Plus, I suggest you give it a whiff.

[YinYang1st]

I'll one up this thread. I'm all for it.

[Ladybird]

I've read a few impressions by people who have played Love Plus, and they have said it's pretty good as a game, and it could be compared to Nintendogs (which is, despite what people who haven't played it are saying,a game). It's not a visual novel per say, and the storyline is not the point of it. It's more like an interesting and low-stress "slice-of-life simulation".

[Trucido Umbra]

Wait what? The game a guy got married to in Japan, hold on {record scratches as yanked off track} will SELL, here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsikPswAYUM

In this climate? Where the mere mention of a mildly suggestive art cover causes clamber for a hiding of said game behind registers at gamestop. Also, in a country where demands for changing of similar said cover art before even a confirmation of localization occurs, you are really serious?

The same climate that spouts, get a gf or go google porn 9999 times in a row if you even want the slightest realistic romantic visual portrayal of sex to even come close to 'R' rated film with the seldom included relationship aspects in rpg's. Are you freakin kidding me?

This kind of risk is not happening here, it just will not, america is way too judgmental for it on the level of the most base & non-pornographic level of these console games from Japan to ever be as far as I can tell.

It's a cool dream but it's just a dream. Capitalism dictates all & the u.s. is way too 'uptight' for this genre, end of story.

[Ladybird]

Love Plus is not a porn game, not even close. It's very innocent by today's standards... Bayonetta, Dante's Inferno, Bloodrayne and a whole lot more games have more suggestive material than this one.

What comes to the guy who "married" his virtual girlfriend, there's been some talk on how the whole thing was just made up in a pathetic attempt to get famous. The "marriage ceremony" worked out like a press release, and all of the wedding "guests" were reporters he'd invited himself. Afterwards he tried to make a big deal out of himself in the Internet.

[Ladybird]

Sorry for the double post, but let me make a couple of points here.

Re: lack of traditional gameplay elements. Did this in any way stop Nintendogs and The Sims being massive hits? In fact, many of the best-selling games are low-stress software toys about the most mundane things.

About only bored housewifes being interested in romance. Here's a snippet of an interview with Dr. Greg from Bioware:

Q: How is sex going to be handled in Dragon Age 2, and how do you react to the intense scrutiny and interest that accompanies the sex in Dragon Age and Mass Effect? I mean, I have a friend who was absolutely obsessed with trying to nail one of his party members. What do you think of that?

GZ: Will there be romance opportunities? Of course! It's not just your friend, it's a large part of the experience. It's really funny, because when we first did it in Baldur's Gate, the same concept, we asked fans and did focus tests they all said, "Oh no, we don't really care about that, we're not really interested." Yet when they play, they do the exact opposite. They obsess over it, spending all this time and effort, and in Dragon Age you had the gifts. It was involved, right? I think it's something that's actually an important part of the game. It's part of the whole concept of having relationships. I think it's a good thing. They key thing for us is that it's mature content for an appropriate age group. But I think it's a big part of the game.

Here's another from http://www.videogamer.com/news/bioware_talks_romance_pack_dlc.html

BioWare co-founders Greg Zeschuk and Ray Muzyka have said they would consider releasing relationship DLC for their games, admitting that this is something fans have been asking for.

"People actually do ask: 'Why don't you do more relationships?'" Zeschuk told Kotaku in San Francisco last week.

Kotaku says that Zeschuk is in favour of such a thing, suggesting the release of what he called a "Romance Pack".

See the Bioware forums and social groups. The threads for the love interests are the most popular ones. Some romanceable characters have several threads that all have several thousands of posts. The most popular character is Tali, mostly liked by young males.

See the Baldur's Gate modding community. Most fan-made mods are romance mods.

[Trucido Umbra]

Ladybird, you are preaching to a person who imports to enjoy what isn't allowed or would not 'according to corporate' sell here more than anyone he personally knows, & who has gone through hell to learn as much as possible about another language to do so.

Some have called me a weeaboo, but I don't ever just import from the 'archipelago', nor do I hate everything about the country here either. This country had astoundingly great ideas beyond anywhere else in the world at its start, those things I love, also love some people in it & I'll leave it at that.

There are rules about what is allowed on consoles in japan vs PC games which I have discussed very recently in fact, & if you had just looked at some other threads you might have found them, but no matter about that.

I am very aware of the content of this game, as well as the purpose of the real world 'marriage' related to it.

The general populace is who I am referencing, & the media 'sit'storm that would follow. The game could have 2 seconds of suggestive anything from an innocent/not so innocent bend/pose to a single kiss & hug between lovers or EVEN nothing but a fade to black screen with mild suggestive dialog, or simply a bumpy camera shot of a house & joking words not even related to romantic sex & would still be considered porn for someone with no life. ESPECIALLY, if there wasn't killing, fighting, sports, trivia, puzzle or baby games inside the package along with that content.

Even though I do not care what others think about my personal games of interest (other than whether the developers do what it is I'm searching for in the game experience 'right'), apparently the MAJORITY does care what the next chump in line thinks about what they are buying & why, as well as what their family thinks, friends, et cetera.

I was simply adding reasons for why the risk is not going to be worth it for a publisher, reasons that had not been as direct or directly stated.

If you can change that more power to you, but you better find tons of supporters for this genre here (dating sim/romance) to ever get a chance on its own outside of those few select additions in other gaming genres. Let alone as was brought up already in this thread this same genre alone, limited to anime depictions; & I mean so many supporters that it could get the attention of a publisher beyond what is amassed so far.

Being that a forum following work member of this publisher actually took the time to politely explain why this isn't already happening or planned at all.

[Ladybird]

The saying goes "there is no such thing as bad publicity", and it does seem to apply to games as much as anything else. Media backlash against games like Mortal Combat, Street Fighter II and the Grand Theft Auto series has always resulted in increased sales. Mass Effect one had sex and nudity in it, and Fox News called it a sex simulator. Mass Effect was a hit and is about to have it's second sequel.

Why guys have such problems associating themselves with romance is beyond me, but I don't see how this would greatly affect the sales. Nobody has to make a full disclosure of what you are buying to the world. The DS is more private than a game console. It's not like handhelds haven't been used on anything embarrassing before. There's a reason why the PSP is sometimes called "Playstation Pornable".:p

[Trucido Umbra]

Actually, when it's something new, there is. Mass Effect had a ton of storyline, dialog & action (mostly endless shooting & side quests of all the same re-hashed areas inside colonies/mining complexes/et cetera) going for it beyond relationships that SELLS here.

There was no sex, no nudity & only a 2-4 second side shot of a bare ass & back with some suggestive close contact, not even a single thrust or controllable event ever occurred. In a game that can run over 40 hours+ if all side missions & DLC are thoroughly scoured.

Which simply made my point clearer, it's all 'sex' even if there isn't any whatsoever; 'full frontal nudity' even if there isn't any.

Guys aren't the only ones with an issue, this includes everyone here, women just happen to be more open to romance in general.

The point here about the PSP is that they'd rather keep it limited to real people because anything else is of course only for children & americans cannot stomach anime or realistic imaging of 3-d characters in this manner even slightly, even though technology has advanced quite well it only means what I already said about said adult person wanting the game to be more 'realistic in character portrayal'.

Here's another reaction to this case in point, on another title being discussed in this same forum section that isn't even purely about what this game represents... Maybe that would help but I did see the trailer and that really grossed me out.

[Saburo Hikari]

Regardless of whatever everyone's saying about this game, or love sim games in general, I'd like to see this game translated just to see something different.

[Ladybird]

Actually, when it's something new, there is. Mass Effect had a ton of storyline, dialog & action (mostly endless shooting & side quests of all the same re-hashed areas inside colonies/mining complexes/et cetera) going for it beyond relationships that SELLS here.

And as I said, Bioware is seriously considering releasing DLC just about romance. They seriously think people would pay for nothing but virtual dating. Note that they make hardcore RPGs. Their target audience isn't even the most likely one to be interested in romance.

Which simply made my point clearer, it's all 'sex' even if there isn't any whatsoever; 'full frontal nudity' even if there isn't any.

My point is that it can't get much worse than being called a sex sim in national news, and it didn't matter. The only end result was the Fox News "expert" suffering from backlash and giving a public apology, and Bioware selling a whole lot of Mass Effect.

People who yap about this sort of thing are not the ones who buy games anyway. Your average teen is only going to get more interested if he hears a game has sex in it. Parents don't have much control over what their teenagers play. It's even harder to control a handheld game with a Teen rating. People don't care. Even hardcore porn sold well before people could get it anonymously from the Internet.

The point here about the PSP is that they'd rather keep it limited to real people because anything else is of course only for children & americans cannot stomach anime or realistic imaging of 3-d characters in this manner even slightly, even though technology has advanced quite well it only means what I already said about said adult person wanting the game to be more 'realistic in character portrayal'.


I don't think that's true in most cases. I think more people would feel uncomfortable playing a dating sim with characters that look too real. I think part of their appeal is that they are clearly fantasy, not real. In fact, in Mass Effect the most popular love interests are by far the aliens. Even in America, sexualized cartoon characters have existed as long as there's been cartoon characters.

There's an article exploring this topic at http://blogs.eserver.org/issues/1997/35/hamilton.html

[Trucido Umbra]

^ I think I'm in love. I just lost the game. ;_;

Carry on, please. Carry on.

I will add that part of this DLC from bioware had to do with the removal of romance entirely in the expansion pack of Dragon Age as well as the 'toning down' of the romance in ME2 which did in fact upset a decent section of its fans.

One Bioware developer in particular stated something out of anger in regards to what can & cannot be put in the games & that it is under their sole dictatorship, but returned to state he agreed that if only some of those higher ups would get bigger cojones instead of scuttle away in fear of backlash at MORE of this kind of content, it might actually work.

You are right about the Fox thing but it still doesn't fit the same convincing points with a genre that's never been touched 'alone'. Not added, included, or even modded into a game type but, all by its lonesome.

Not to mention with this small company, a company that doesn't even have a forum section for one title where they did branch off into untouched territory, ehem 'Rule Of Rose'. They just may not take this kind of a risk, as they can't afford anywhere near the advertising power & don't quite have the past mainstream titles Mass Effect & it's ilk have had.

This last part, I would love to agree but it would need to be seen first by a corporate body before that kind of chance might be jumped on. Hence, why I stated if you can find others to speak up, get them in here, or on other publishers boards that listen & respond for the love of pete. :P

As for the alien love, let's be honest now it was mainly all about the lesbian fantasy sex, really now. ;) No one was AS excited about getting with the male alien races quite so much in ME2. Edit: Even though, some of those were amusing indeed.

I'll check the link later as it's being blocked on my PC right now, yet I am curious.

[Ladybird]

Oh, actually Garrus is the most popular male love interest in the Mass Effect series (he wasn't originally intended to be romanceable, but the romance was added to ME2 due to fan demands), and Garrus definitely belongs to the "creepy crawlies" variety. He doesn't even have the same kind of sex appeal as Liara does, but he's really popular. No, I don't really understand either.:p

I don't think an innocent relationship sim is all that risky just because it happens to be about relationships. A lot of the stuff Atlus has done has much more risky material, including heavy sexual innuendo, religious material, and violence. Mass Effect with an alien lesbian sex scene was much more risque than Love Plus, and all they got was some free publicity. Actually I think small publishers like Atlus get ity easier than big publishers. I don't remember any major moral panic over anything Atlus has put out. The worst that could happen that I can think of is that some large stores like WalMart pull the game off the shelves, and they don't usually carry Atlus games anyway.

[Olethros]

Nope. The worst that could happen would be time and money invested in a game that is absolutely destined to tank. Time and money that could have been used to bring over something else. In these economic climates it doesn't take one catastrophic failure to devastate a company - a series of smaller ones can do just as much (if not more) damage.

[Ladybird]

Nope. The worst that could happen would be time and money invested in a game that is absolutely destined to tank.

^^ What Maxis said to Will Wright when he tried to sell them the concept of The Sims. :p

[Kakizaki]

Nope. The worst that could happen would be time and money invested in a game that is absolutely destined to tank.

^^ What Maxis said to Will Wright when he tried to sell them the concept of The Sims. :p

For every one example of a successful idea that was initially dismissed, you could find a thousand others that were also dismissed and the intuition that played a hand in their rejection was 100% correct.

[Ladybird]

So let's all start trusting the intuition of random people on a game forum. I'm sure their gut feelings and guesswork prove to be reliable.:D

[Trucido Umbra]

Ok, Ladybird do you have others in droves or even a handful to add to this. I thought very highly of your abilty to comeback at one point but, if this is all you & one other person, it is obvious we're not going to go anywhere.

This isn't a terrible idea in the context of opening a new genre but the reasons for it not being here still are strong & you need to organize a fan base, that's called being active instead of debating with others who do not agree.

Honestly, my interest in this genre is there but not when there is no delivery at all like in this title if I get right to the point, specifically for the enticement of a reason to PAY for it.

Gather others who love playing anime romance with no visible or in game participatory reward beyond text & some 2d school girls in full clothing throughout the entire game & bring them into publishing forums till there is a point towards taking this risk, it shouldn't be that hard if what you are saying at is true...

[Ladybird]

There are quite a few people who would like to get romance sims/visual novels/other Japanese sims brought to the west. I've tried a few times to encourage them to bring their opinions to the publishers... The trouble is that people have very defeatist attitudes. Most don't want to bother because they think it's already a lost cause. I like to think that trying is always more productive than giving up outright, especially since small miracles (like a western release of Sakura Wars) do sometimes happen. It seems the fans just settle with building their own little communities and making unofficial fan translation patches (or learning Japanese to play the originals).

I know I'm fighting windmills here. I'm mainly posting here because I like debating, and making fun of people who think their opinions are Gospel.:D

[Olethros]

Funny you should mention Sakura Wars here. It's exactly the type of example your side of a debate shouldn't be trotting out. The game bombed. Horrifically and catastrophically failed here. For all of the whining and crying and begging and pleading I've seen all over the internet about that game series and the supposedly rapid fan base that would support them in the west, guess what happened? No one showed up. NISA was very disappointed in it's sales. Look at the strength and the dedication that the SRT community supposedly has and then compare that to how well the few games that have been brought over here have done comercially. If there is one thing that can be certain on the internet it's that most people are all talk and no action. The people that want these games are the same ones that only buy games when they've dropped in price or from a used bin (or worse). Then they bitch and moan when publishers won't spend resources bringing out other installments. :question:

Also, I like debating as well but two points need to be clarified here: 1) no one said anything about their opinion being gospel, and 2) if that's you making fun of people then you are really, really, REALLY not good at it.

[Ladybird]

Funny you should mention Sakura Wars here. It's exactly the type of example your side of a debate shouldn't be trotting out. The game bombed. Horrifically and catastrophically failed here.

Where did you extrapolate that from? Sakura Wars V didn't sell as well as NISA hoped, but I don't recall anyone calling it a "horrific and catastrophic failure".

Sakura Wars V had a lot of cards stacked against it. The timing was the worst possible as it came out in the same month as a glutton of other RPGs, including Final Fantasy XIII. It was released on the PS2 which is dead, and an inferior version on the Wii which is not exactly a top choice for RPG gamers (the PS2 version outsold the Wii version by a large margin). Looking at the forum threads now, even a lot of people who actively keep an eye on new RPG releases missed the SW release almost entirely. Everyone was playing FF XIII at the time and many games got lost in the shuffle. Adding to that, Sakura Wars V didn't do well in Japan either.

Even so, Sakura Wars and Love Plus are two different things. The reason why I brought it up was to point out that people who cry that a game has zero chance of getting a western release are not always right.

[KingOfPrinces]

Yeah, that is surprising Sakura Wars didn't do well. I just bought it and it is an Awsome Game!

[Kakizaki]

Funny you should mention Sakura Wars here. It's exactly the type of example your side of a debate shouldn't be trotting out. The game bombed. Horrifically and catastrophically failed here.

Where did you extrapolate that from? Sakura Wars V didn't sell as well as NISA hoped, but I don't recall anyone calling it a "horrific and catastrophic failure".

Sakura Wars V had a lot of cards stacked against it. The timing was the worst possible as it came out in the same month as a glutton of other RPGs, including Final Fantasy XIII. It was released on the PS2 which is dead, and an inferior version on the Wii which is not exactly a top choice for RPG gamers (the PS2 version outsold the Wii version by a large margin). Looking at the forum threads now, even a lot of people who actively keep an eye on new RPG releases missed the SW release almost entirely. Everyone was playing FF XIII at the time and many games got lost in the shuffle. Adding to that, Sakura Wars V didn't do well in Japan either.

Even so, Sakura Wars and Love Plus are two different things. The reason why I brought it up was to point out that people who cry that a game has zero chance of getting a western release are not always right.

None of this should matter if there is a supposedly strong fan base. Yeah, there were some things stacked against it, but fans generally have methods of prioritizing what to get first if they don't have enough disposable income to pick up everything. And if they can't be bothered enough to think of someway of getting a game that they apparently wanted over here so desperately, maybe they aren't the die hard fans they thought they were (or maybe others overestimated fan interest).

[Olethros]

True enough, every once in a while some one foolishly gives one of these non-gaming games a chance and then they regret it.

My base theory still stands: the internet is chock full of loud mouths who swear up and down that they'll support a certain game/series/genre and then fail to do so when a company calls them out on it. In the case of Sakura Wars you can make as many excuses as you wish but the end result is that several different vocal minorities failed NISA: the Sakura Wars "fans", the VN crowd, and the "if you leave Japanese voices in it I'll support it" groups all did a no show.

I also have a related question (I legitimately do not know the answer so anyone who does feel free to pipe in): Has that Disgaea VN come out yet and if so, how has it faired sales wise?

[Kakizaki]

My base theory still stands: the internet is chock full of loud mouths who swear up and down that they'll support a certain game/series/genre and then fail to do so when a company calls them out on it.

And I witnessed the same thing over and over again during my five year tenure at Gamestop. Talk is cheap, and people rarely backed it up on a consistent basis.

[KingOfPrinces]

Actually, when it's something new, there is. Mass Effect had a ton of storyline, dialog & action (mostly endless shooting & side quests of all the same re-hashed areas inside colonies/mining complexes/et cetera) going for it beyond relationships that SELLS here.

There was no sex, no nudity & only a 2-4 second side shot of a bare ass & back with some suggestive close contact, not even a single thrust or controllable event ever occurred. In a game that can run over 40 hours+ if all side missions & DLC are thoroughly scoured.

Which simply made my point clearer, it's all 'sex' even if there isn't any whatsoever; 'full frontal nudity' even if there isn't any.

Guys aren't the only ones with an issue, this includes everyone here, women just happen to be more open to romance in general.

The point here about the PSP is that they'd rather keep it limited to real people because anything else is of course only for children & americans cannot stomach anime or realistic imaging of 3-d characters in this manner even slightly, even though technology has advanced quite well it only means what I already said about said adult person wanting the game to be more 'realistic in character portrayal'.

Here's another reaction to this case in point, on another title being discussed in this same forum section that isn't even purely about what this game represents... Maybe that would help but I did see the trailer and that really grossed me out.

I don't appreciate being picked on. I was just trying express my opinion about that game while still trying to be polite. I never said that the game sucked or that it looked like crap or that i never wanted it localized. I only mean't to say that it wasn't my cup of tea; if you took it another way I apologize. I don't appreciate having people quoting me trying to make me look like a complete retard. If your goal was to try and get me to shut up you've succeeded I won't ever give my opinion of a game ever again unless it's the same opinion of everyone else. Because apparently every individual has a right to their opinion.................As long as it's the same as everyone elses.

[Olethros]

KingOfPrinces, I think you may be blowing this entirely out of proportion. I doubt his intent in quoting you was to poke fun. It's far more likely that you were an easy and nearby example to help him illustrate his point: that a lot of people seem to be uncomfortable with sexuality in video games (while being perfectly fine with graphically depicted violence).

The quote does seem to indicate that you were uncomfortable with that aspect of the games theme. Is that not correct?

[Trucido Umbra]

^ This.

Maybe that would help but I did see the trailer and that really grossed me out.

Utah, land of a thousand churches.

Wouldn't this be more of something closer to what you're describing, KingOfPrinces?

[KingOfPrinces]

Please leave my home state out of this. Plus it wasn't just the sexual themes. That game just had some creepy dark tone.

[Trucido Umbra]

Omg, yep I was quoting myself. That's what I said & meant, exactly. Srsly, I give up.

[KingOfPrinces]

Oh okay. I'm sorry, I think I understand what you were saying now.

That's the problem with written communication; it can be easily misunderstood.

[Kakizaki]

lol Trucido. I'm pretty impressed by your patience. ;)

[Bastet]

Regardless of whatever everyone's saying about this game, or love sim games in general, I'd like to see this game translated just to see something different.
Totally off topic here, but your avatar is awesome. It's from Skies of Arcadia, right?

[Ladybird]

None of this should matter if there is a supposedly strong fan base. Yeah, there were some things stacked against it, but fans generally have methods of prioritizing what to get first if they don't have enough disposable income to pick up everything. And if they can't be bothered enough to think of someway of getting a game that they apparently wanted over here so desperately, maybe they aren't the die hard fans they thought they were (or maybe others overestimated fan interest).

Have I really claimed somewhere there's a large Sakura Wars fanbase in the western markets?

First of all, Sakura Wars is a strategy RPG/visual novel hybrid, not a visual novel per se. I really don't know how many of VN fans are interested in Sakura Wars.

Secondly, with a big production like SW that has professional voice-overs, of course the game has to attract more people than the established fan base. That's nothing new. Every new IP has the same problem. Many games Atlus brings over are no-names in the West. It's possible NISA overestimated the name recognition of the series (which was a big deal 5-10 years ago but not so much anymore), because the game came out with so little fanfare, and definitely at the wrong time. All I know is that if you go and read the threads on different forums, there's a lot of people saying "I didn't know this was out!" or "What is this game?". Many bought the game because they thought it was going to be like Disgaea, which says something about how much people knew about it.

Reading those threads you'll also notice that the player reaction to the game was largely very positive, including from those who have never even heard of Sakura Wars or visual novels. Most of the negative comments came from people who have played the earlier Sakura Wars games and thought the fifth one was a weak installment in the series. SW was not bought by many people, but most of those who did enjoyed it.

Lastly, Love Plus is neither a strategy RPG nor a visual novel. The thing that connects these two games is that both include virtual dating. So do Bioware games.

True enough, every once in a while some one foolishly gives one of these non-gaming games a chance and then they regret it.

I thought we already established on this thread that "non-gaming games" can do more than well. Nintendogs, Wii Fit, The Sims and many more sell better than traditional games. But that is beside the point, since Sakura Wars is a VN/SRPG hybrid and is most certainly a game.

[Kakizaki]

None of this should matter if there is a supposedly strong fan base. Yeah, there were some things stacked against it, but fans generally have methods of prioritizing what to get first if they don't have enough disposable income to pick up everything. And if they can't be bothered enough to think of someway of getting a game that they apparently wanted over here so desperately, maybe they aren't the die hard fans they thought they were (or maybe others overestimated fan interest).

Have I really claimed somewhere there's a large Sakura Wars fanbase in the western markets?


No you didn't, and I didn't claim you did, but that doesn't negate my point. Others have claimed there was a fan base for SW just like you seem to be claiming there is a significant enough following to justify the localization of a title such as Love Plus. I believe SW was brought up here to demonstrate how the vocal minority skews things when it comes to assessing the strength of a community.

A lot of the other factors that you are referring to in regards to the failure of SW here are essentially meaningless. Despite the wealth of information, and misinformation available on the internet, I frequently see people who are unaware that even a prominent title was released in North America. Yeah, some people might not have been aware that SW was out. So what? I hardly think a survey of the forums you go to would be considered an even marginally accurate survey.

[Ladybird]

Others have claimed there was a fan base for SW just like you seem to be claiming there is a significant enough following to justify the localization of a title such as Love Plus.

I've claimed no such thing. I've claimed there is interest in Love Plus, and it does have more of a following in the west than most Japanese games that have not been published in the western markets. But I'm not saying the established audience would be enough to make it a success. It would have to find its audience just like any new IP. I brought up the western fan communities just because I was asked if it was just me and another guy who are currently interested, or if there are more people who could start pressuring the publishers for a localization.

A lot of the other factors that you are referring to in regards to the failure of SW here are essentially meaningless. Despite the wealth of information, and misinformation available on the internet, I frequently see people who are unaware that even a prominent title was released in North America. Yeah, some people might not have been aware that SW was out. So what? I hardly think a survey of the forums you go to would be considered an even marginally accurate survey.

Of course it isn't, and I'm not claiming it to be. We are all speculating here, but at least I'm basing mine on more than "because I say so".

[Kakizaki]

Of course it isn't, and I'm not claiming it to be. We are all speculating here, but at least I'm basing mine on more than "because I say so".

You've stated this in one fashion or another at least a couple of times. Who exactly is acting in this manner? Everyone in this thread has attempted to provide at least some evidence as to why they feel the way they do. I hope you just mean in general - like when you are discussing this topic elsewhere and not necessarily here. Otherwise, I would find that comment a tad disrespectful.

[Fuyukaze]

As someone who imports too damned many dating sim games, this game creeps me out to no ends. Of all the games I'd ever hope they would release in the states, this would never be one. If they wanted to waste money one something, I could think of a number of great games in the very suggestions forum that would at the very least cover the cost of bringing it out. There are better games. There are better games in its own genre of gaming as well. This game has too many ugly things about it to be released in the states.


Kaki, either you've become more patient or something. I'm somewhat surprised you've not lost it yet in this thread. How you manage it is beyond me.

As to Sakura Wars, I was one of those suckers who had to buy it. Bought both the PS2 version and the Wii. Loved the first two on the Dreamcast though I couldnt understand even half the story. Bringing out V was maybe the worst idea though as the main charcters everyone loved were no longer the focus. Eh, I've spent money on worse and regreted it. Buying Sakura Wars wasnt a regret.

[Trucido Umbra]

Honestly, I think he & I both have. Er, Ebaums did some of it to me (lol), but seriously, real life too, it's just too precious & short to waste being upset at... well you get the idea.

Kaki probably has just dealt with so much of it. He also has always been astute & eloquent in writing, & even has some very well timed moments of sarcasm (I say that with admiration & respect).

Not like I know him personally, but I have been around him for years on these boards, back when we didn't quite see eye to eye. I was a bit more unrefined, & reaction based to say the least.

You got me curious though, Fuyukaze what's so creepy about this game?

Only thing similar I like on this portable is the Doki Doki Majo Shinpan series, no dating, no drama & funny/fun as hell use of the touch screen, just what a DS needs IMHO, but I know it'll never come here, so I deal with it.

[Fuyukaze]

The stuff that creeps me out is the charcters and gameplay. Alot of the news I've seen about the game hasnt helped either. Basicly the game gives off enough negative press as is. I realize that's not a great answer but that's the best I can give. Others have given good reasons with low sales potential and how it's targeted twords a more niche market and such, but that's my own personal reason. I'd rather play Tokimeki Memorial then this. The Saturn game had a nice opening.

Thinking about it though, I cant help but wonder how well Atlus' early venture into dating sims did them with thousand arms. I know we'll never have sales numbers, hell, I doubt we'd even get numbers as to how many mailed in for the free soundtrack CD but I somehow doubt the game was a huge seller. It's amazing how people tend to overlook it entirely.

[Ladybird]

Thousand Arms was an RPG with dating sim elements, like Harvest Moon. I remember it being fairly mediocre and ugly as hell.

[Kakizaki]

^I found Thousand Arms' look to be pretty charming.

[Olethros]

Kaki probably has just dealt with so much of it. He also has always been astute & eloquent in writing, & even has some very well timed moments of sarcasm (I say that with admiration & respect).

This is the understatement of the year! <3 Kaki.

EDIT: Also, this: Not like I know him personally, but I have been around him for years on these boards, back when we didn't quite see eye to eye. I was a bit more unrefined, & reaction based to say the least.


Amazing what a little time and experience can do for a man's attitude and out look, eh? ;)

[Kakizaki]

This thread needs:

:lovefirefox::grouphug::lovefirefox::grouphug:





:tongue:

[pajamavamp]

For all the sales bashing that was given Sakura Wars and the underplaying of vocal fanbases it's interesting to note that SW sold better than several titles released by Atlus this year.

You guys know which ones.

That was my whole original point when I jumped on this thread as well. That Love Plus' estimated performance would be in line with games Atlus chooses to localize already.

If what they currently do makes money for them than this would continue that trend. If they lose money on a lot of their games right now, well then I'm sorry to hear that and they're going to have to hope more Persona and Trauma Series games are produced Japan side.

[Olethros]

This is just getting silly now. There IS no estimated performace for Love Plus, nor is there any way for you to know for sure that SW sold better than any single Atlus title. You're all trying very hard to sound informed and logical in your pleas for these games but they're all based on conjecture and/or biased opinion. (I was particularly impressed by the links that went to biased opinion sites that we were supposed to believe were scholarly and legitimate analyses. :roll:).

It will please you all to know that I'm done banging my head against this particular brick wall. If you all wish to go on lying to yourselves about the fact that the weird and creepy Japanese guys who buy this stuff don't have dual American citizenship then I'll no longer try to bring the light of reality to you.

[pajamavamp]

What's ridiculous is your own dismissive posts and what's even worse pretty much degrading others as creepy Japanophiles.

What's worse is that the volunteer mod whose seen fit to wade in on this lets things like that pass, because it has no place.

[Olethros]

Nice try. I never called anyone a Japanophile. I called the legitimate Japanese citizens that keep dreck like this coming out by buying it weird and creepy.

You need better reading comprehesion skills.

You're on the money about being dismissive, though. I'll give you that one. I've had this discussion so many times that I have likely become flippant and jaded. However, the manner in which I went about expressing the reality of the situation doesn't make it any less of a truth.

Bottom line is that I wasn't lying about being done with the actually debate about the game. As long as you can refrain from throwing any more hissy fits aimed at me (or others I know and like) then you will not see me post in this particular thread any longer. That's a promise.

[lol, forums]

Who here has any idea how much Konami's asking price to license Love Plus for NA release would be? No one? Thought so. Who here assumes that it would be a reasonable price that reflects the likely low sales this game would get? Anyone? Maybe? Well, that's never a safe assumption to make, and if you knew the industry from the inside, you'd know it's typically the wrong assumption, especially if there's a big-name company like Konami involved.

Moral of the story, even if any of you had the foresight to know exactly how much this game would sell in the States, that information is completely useless without knowing how much the game is going to cost up front. So it's absolutely pointless to compare expected sales of this game to sales of previous Atlus games, especially if trying to use that as reasoning for why it's logical for us to do this game (or any, for that matter). And you can't just assume that the game would cost as much as those other titles, especially when we might only've bothered with those other titles due to a low cost. Then of course there's the variations in profit margins for DS games, due to the nature of cartridges, which needs to be considered beyond the up-front cost. Meanwhile, you definitely can't assume that those previous titles were profitable, especially when considering their common factor is low sales (I promise I won't say "especially" again).

And all this is to say nothing of the zero weight any of your assumptions about Western market potential and expected sales figures carry. I've seen forum members mention how they've noticed our output of niche JP titles has declined a bit from previous years. There's obviously got to be a reason for that, and it certainly isn't just to spite our fanbase.

TL;DR version of why you shouldn't assume this would be a worthwhile venture for Atlus:
1. You don't know what the licensing cost is
2. Your expected sales figures are no more valid than if I were to randomly pull 5 single-digit numbers out of a hat to make a 5-digit number
3. Comparing those invalid sales expectations to sales of our previous games is pointless, because:
a) You have no idea if the licensing costs are similar between them
b) You have no idea if the gross profit per title sold is similar
c) You have no idea if those previous titles were profitable

EDIT: Oh, and I almost forgot--no one's talking out of line here. Just 'cause you take offense to something said by someone, doesn't mean they're actually being offensive. Personal interpretations and sensitivities come into play, which is why we have third parties make calls like that. And Kakizaki has been right in not seeing any cause for disciplinary actions here.

[Evilkinggumby]

Wow a 16post new user incited that.. I am impressed.. lol.

Bravo olethros n lol, forums. Cool heads prevail once again.

[Ladybird]

You're all trying very hard to sound informed and logical in your pleas for these games but they're all based on conjecture and/or biased opinion.

Yup. We are all just making guesses here. Of course our opinions are not more biased and based on any more conjecture than yours. :)

(I was particularly impressed by the links that went to biased opinion sites that we were supposed to believe were scholarly and legitimate analyses. :roll:).

Where are these links you are talking about? I just checked the whole thread and I don't find them...

Are you maybe referring to that one link to that article about people being attracted to artificial virtual characters? I do believe I referred to it as an "article", not a "scholarly and legitimate analysis". :P I linked the article because I thought Trucido Umbra would find it interesting, not to prove a point. It's not a point that I think needs much proving.

If you all wish to go on lying to yourselves about the fact that the weird and creepy Japanese guys who buy this stuff don't have dual American citizenship then I'll no longer try to bring the light of reality to you.

Again with the conjecture and offering your opinion as fact.:roll: Sakura Wars was by and large received very well by the people who played it, and the Bioware games put more and more emphasis on the romances because their audience demands it. Therefore I see no reason to believe the western audience would reject Love Plus as you think. Those few people I know who have played the game didn't seem creepy either.

[Evilkinggumby]

Sakura Wars was by and large received very well by the people who played it, and the Bioware games put more and more emphasis on the romances because their audience demands it.

Wait.. what? I would love that to be true. You got some sources to cite backing that up? you state it as if common fact yet.. I don't really know if you are right. I mean with Mass Effect and Dragon age, they turned a lot of their focus on story and cinematic storytelling, which is going to drive a certain need for romantic moments. So what you are saying is that the ONLY reason for the love scenes et al was fan service, not because the story, characters, or game demanded it...

I have to agree with Olethros.. the whole sake of argument here is really spinning the soup and calling it science.

though I am still curious why the game is .. "creepy" to folk.. lol

[Olethros]

Nope. No way. Not going to do it. Must resist OCD urges to fix faulty logic in others. I will not be drawn back into this, I will not be drawn back into this, I will not be drawn back into this, I will not be drawn back into this, I will...

[Evilkinggumby]

Nope. No way. Not going to do it. Must resist OCD urges to fix faulty logic in others. I will not be drawn back into this, I will not be drawn back into this, I will not be drawn back into this, I will not be drawn back into this, I will...

"Take a deep breath and count to ten.. Ain't gonna let it get under mah skin...Take a deep breath and count to ten.. Think of all the nice places that I've been..." -Clutch

[Ladybird]

Wait.. what? I would love that to be true. You got some sources to cite backing that up?

Already done. Please read my previous posts on this thread.

[Trucido Umbra]

^ Ladybird, you could link to the post number, I just went through this whole thread & could not find it, unless it was the college link you posted... go to User CP look at your previous messages, click on the one it is, go up to your HTML address bar, right click, copy & then hold ctrl & press v in your response, just attempting to help.

[pajamavamp]

The whole point of this Game Suggestions section is for people to bring up games, making assumptions along the way.

Not until that semi-raging post by an Atlus staff member had anyone posted a valid rebuke of localizing this, or any other game. It was really nice to get some good reasons.

Thanks for it.

[Kakizaki]

^Let's be honest here. Maybe it didn't come up in this thread until lol, forums mentioned it, but I and many other non-Atlus employee posters have brought up licensing cost issues in the past. It usually just gets blown off by people.

[Olethros]

Uh, I believe I said the exact same thing lol, forums did except in a concise manner. Yes, he absolutely went into much greater detail and utilized a lot more effort but the core essence of what he said can be boiled down into the bold/underlined sentence below.

Damn. Apparently I WILL be drawn back into this...

This is just getting silly now. There IS no estimated performace for Love Plus, nor is there any way for you to know for sure that SW sold better than any single Atlus title. You're all trying very hard to sound informed and logical in your pleas for these games but they're all based on conjecture and/or biased opinion. (I was particularly impressed by the links that went to biased opinion sites that we were supposed to believe were scholarly and legitimate analyses. :roll:).

It will please you all to know that I'm done banging my head against this particular brick wall. If you all wish to go on lying to yourselves about the fact that the weird and creepy Japanese guys who buy this stuff don't have dual American citizenship then I'll no longer try to bring the light of reality to you.

[Ladybird]

I think it's starting to echo in here... :-P

Yes, absolutely. The licensing costs might be too high. It's also very possible (if not even likely) that Konami wouldn't be selling the rights to Atlus for any cost. And even if it would be published, there's no guarantee of success. I agree with that. I just don't agree with the claims that a western release is downright impossible, and any attempt at it would be doomed to fail. You don't know this any better than anyone else here.

[Olethros]

Since it's never going to get localized anyway then I guess we'll just never know for sure if it would be doomed to fail. Happy now?

[lol, forums]

Now I feel compelled to go around semi-raging more often. Maybe even go on a semi-rampage at some point.

None of this means anything, btw.

[Ladybird]

edit - Enough is enough. If you want to have a debate, I'm fine with that and with leaving this thread open. However if it is going to become nothing but a ticky-tack back and forth blame game about who has the more close minded opinion, I'm afraid this thread will have to be locked. The choice is yours, but no more of this junk - Kakizaki

[Olethros]

Now I feel compelled to go around semi-raging more often. Maybe even go on a semi-rampage at some point.

None of this means anything, btw.

Probably better than a raging semi, eh lol? :p