The Wrong Crowd (Frog's topic from Reviews thread)

[dungeon_man]

I'm breaking this off because it doesn't really belong in reviews.

Anyway, I like to have info on all the demons and the like, and I like to actually be able to COMPLETE a game.

Fortunately, neither of those things require a guide.


and please "make a strategy guide for sj."

why in the hell would you want that?? please dont even make a FAQ until one year after it's release, or better yet, never. you should not being playing these type of games if you need this kind of help. it's pretty much the reason why so many females are playing these games now, those goddamn guides and emo approach to character design in modern RPG's. and because of that, we now have so many girl power RPG's, it makes me sick.

the male saves and nails the princess, keep it that way.


I agree with Frog's sentiment, but not the specifics regarding females. RPGs have attracted a large following that aren't serious about the gameplay of the genre because they've been drawn in by the characters and stories. I don't care who's playing RPGs until it begins to affect me, and it does affect me when the gameplay becomes simplified to attract the non-gamer crowd.

From reading various forums, it looks like the majority of people playing RPGs have almost no decision making capabilities, and are incapable of observing enemy patterns and adapting their strategies accordingly. In short, people who rely upon guides to complete every game are losing their problem solving skills.

Considering the forum, the most important question here is whether or not Strange Journey has been simplified to draw in the non-gamers. On the plus side, the hedge maze has me interested from a puzzle-solving standpoint. Also, Devil Survivor was plenty challenging, so I don't expect a huge about-face in the SMT series difficulty level. On the other hand, reports of a lower difficulty curve and a less engaging combat system worry me.

I'll know the real deal in a few weeks, and I remain optimistic. Even if the combat isn't especially challenging, I expect it to require active mental involvement like all other SMT games I've played, so I expect it to be an enjoyable experience for the gamer in me.

[LordShade]

Are you implying that it isn't OK to help other people out?

Of course, some games have poorly designed dungeons and subquests that REQUIRE a guide to figure out. Who figured out how to get Reiji on their team in P1 on their own?

Fortunately, this game isn't like that, I only wan't info on how to get all the demons fused, really.

I don't use guides that much, I just like to get details on everything.

[sueisfine]

I never found Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey to be difficult at all, to be honest. There are no strats required in this game that haven't appeared in most other RPGs in general, and other MegaTen titles in particular. But then I've never found the older MegaTen titles to be particularly difficult either, so take this with a grain of salt.

Regarding the dumbing down of RPGs to appeal to a larger crowd, I kind of disagree with that. Most of the higher profile RPGs that have been released lately seem more complex than those aimed at niche audiences. Final Fantasy XIII is a good example. That's definitely a game designed to appeal to a large audience, yet the gameplay is much more complicated than what you'd find in, say, Etrian Odyssey or even Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey.

That's not to say I'm knocking those games; I enjoy them immensely. But they were designed to be very traditional, and as a result will feel familiar to anyone with even a cursory understanding of traditional RPGs. And that's part of their charm. But many of the higher profile games -- whether through multi-genre hybridization or progressive gameplay mechanics -- generally offer a much fresher experience, at least in my opinion.

[dungeon_man]

Are you implying that it isn't OK to help other people out?

No, helping people out is awesome. My bro, cousin, and myself helped each other all the time. Likewise, I love forum discussions for games like The Dark Spire. What I don't like is when people grab a guide and follow it explicitly. That is not playing.

I am reminded of these Microsoft Office training books when I was in college. The books would say things like this:

Highlight the sentence with the mouse by left-clicking and holding the button before the first letter of the first word, then slide the mouse to just past the period and release the button. The sentence should now be highlighted. If it is not, try this again. Next, point your mouse cursor at "Edit" in the menubar and left-click once to open the Edit Menu. Point your cursor at Cut and left click. You will notice that the highlighted sentence below has disappeared...

The problem with these books is that either the student understood the concepts and found the book to be insultingly slow and rigid, or they didn't grasp the concepts and the rigidity prevented them from learning because they were given the false impression that it was all about performing memorized rituals.

Playing with a guide has the same effect. A player won't learn how to solve puzzles if they follow a guide step-by-step instead of trying to understand how the puzzles work. They'll never grasp team-building strategies if they enter each area and boss-fight with a pre-ordained assortment of demons and skills. I'm in favor of sharing tips and checking with friends, forums, or guides when stuck, but anybody who begs for a guide before getting started does not appear interested in playing.

I believe such non-gamers are the wrong crowd for developers to cater to, but I fear that the storytelling aspects of RPGs have resulted in that group becoming the majority. Thus, developers must consider their needs which tends to move game designs in a direction that reduces my enjoyment. I think that feeling is what had Frog so upset, though he had a less-than-stellar way of expressing it.

[Onion of Mystery]

Check this article (http://kotaku.com/5354035/stop-telling-me-what-to-do) out and scroll down to "GAMES THAT ARE AFRAID PEOPLE WON'T UNDERSTAND THEM" (Or read the whole thing. It's interesting!). That seems germane to the conversation.

Basically, games hold your hand when you don't necessarily want them to because of the off chance that there are people who need it. "Sorry, you're too stupid to play this game" is not a viable approach for developers who want to attract and keep new players.

[kaijura]

...RPGs have attracted a large following that aren't serious about the gameplay of the genre because they've been drawn in by the characters and stories. I don't care who's playing RPGs until it begins to affect me, and it does affect me when the gameplay becomes simplified to attract the non-gamer crowd.

From reading various forums, it looks like the majority of people playing RPGs have almost no decision making capabilities, and are incapable of observing enemy patterns and adapting their strategies accordingly. In short, people who rely upon guides to complete every game are losing their problem solving skills.


While I understand most of what you are implying is in regards to linear RPGs with paused action sequences between player/AI response (IE, Final Fantasy wait & turn based), there are various games popping out nowadays that go against the flow in this aspect.

I mean, even the Atlus-published Demon's Souls is a prime example of this to mind, where not observing enemy movements nor having decision making skills results in restarting your progress over again. From personal opinion, the guides and online faqs doesn't really work, most players will probably have to experience death firsthand before adapting to any future encounters with the monster family.

But I digress in this particular example since the gameplay aspect is indeed different from SMT / SJ / etc, which I believe is the focus of your discussion. I just wanted to make it clear that there are RPG games out there with values that still represent "old time" gaming.

I am assuming that the problem is business also plays a major role, not just the average or elite consumers desires. If they (Strat guide publishers) can make some extra pocket cash, and players who are unable to have a mind of their own purchase them without second thoughts, who's to say it can't be done?

[Enzeru]

I feel like frog was responding to me wanting a guidebook...And I wanted to clarify something: I didn't want the guidebook to teach me every step of the way. But who would ever feel like getting all of this information by themselves? I'll tell you who: GUIDE MAKERS! Since the game will be new, there won't be any online walkthroughs, and if I need help, I won't have a quick reference unless I have a guide. I don't mind talking in forums (obviously), but sometimes you're frustrated and want to get it over with. That's all. For something like Matador? I need serious medical attention. But for some little puzzle in Boktai or Etrian Odyssey, I'll be A-OK by myself. I don't see why people hate guides. If I want a guide I will get it, and I won't let anyone same I shouldn't be in the SMT fanbase because I'm just not good at games! Even people who aren't good at games can be fans of harder games because they push themselves. If there were easy dungeon crawlers I would play them, as well, but unfortunately, people obviously don't like fans of dungeon crawls that AREN'T super intelligent hardcore players forbidden to use a guide.

[frog]

i dont Verwendung Führer ich die ganze Zeit nur .... blah blah blah. verschone mich mit deinen bull####, keiner von euch gehen auf die Tatsache der Angelegenheit ist, dass Sie nur zugeben, saugen an diesen Spielen. Sie alle scheinen einige phony Quatsch Entschuldigung, warum man sie benutzt. Sie saugen an Zeit-RPG's. Ich arbeite Vollzeit-Job Konzerte spielen fast jedes Wochenende und ich habe eine sehr anspruchsvolle Freundin und noch Zeit finden, um diese Spiele zu zerstören.




nicht endgültig fagtasy XIII nur Erhaltung der alten atb-System mit einem Mechaniker-Warteschlange in die Mischung geworfen? Das bezweifle ich könnte mehr tiefer und komplexer als Dämon SMT Fusion-System. Auch wie Jugendkriminalität ist es, meine Unterschrift Berechtigungen über einen kleinen Ausbruch Block ... Schande über Sie, Sie verherrlicht Halle-Monitore.

und wenn Sie verstehen, all dies bitte nicht beleidigt, im nur versucht zu vermeiden, dass ball-busted wieder Angst, weil ein kleiner Frosch und wünschen im Atlus wäre mein Freund. Sike.


Liebe Frosch... vielleicht.

[Onion of Mystery]

Your use of Google Translate to attempt to annoy us is noted. Stick to English, please.

So far, the entire theme behind your posting history has been to slam other people for not playing games the exact same way you play them. Find something else to talk about, preferably one that doesn't involve insults.

And "Final Fagtasy"? Grow the hell up.

[frog]

"chagall cafe, low earth orbit." you're one to talk about behaving like an adult. you hide behind a drawing and you can't honestly tell me you're parents don't view you as immature not to mention the small amount of females you probably meet. you and your little queer hall montiors have been against me since the get go just for speaking my mind. i heard about you being a little french nun on here banning people all the time if they say something you dont like. go ahead i could care less about ingaging in conversations with next-gen fish-heads and wiggers, besides i've been looking for a way to delete my account but can't find a way. we should all have the same freedom of speech youtube gives us. who do you think you are, seriously? get off your high horse, you have no real authority.

[jeffx]

LOL.

My account made me do it!!! I can't close it!! OH THE HUMANITY!

For crying out loud.

[frog]

canuck you misunderstand me. im saying feel free to close my account because people obivously have a problem with me on here. my account hasn't compelled me to say the things i've said. why would it? that doesn't even make sense.

[TheDoctor]

Dude, tone down the emo angst down a bit, no one is being hostile towards you.

[Tivor]

"chagall cafe, low earth orbit." you're one to talk about behaving like an adult. you hide behind a drawing and you can't honestly tell me you're parents don't view you as immature not to mention the small amount of females you probably meet. you and your little queer hall montiors have been against me since the get go just for speaking my mind. i heard about you being a little french nun on here banning people all the time if they say something you dont like. go ahead i could care less about ingaging in conversations with next-gen fish-heads and wiggers, besides i've been looking for a way to delete my account but can't find a way. we should all have the same freedom of speech youtube gives us. who do you think you are, seriously? get off your high horse, you have no real authority.

If you hate this place so much, you could, you know, just not come back. You don't even need to close your account (or have someone close it for you). Just go back to YouTube and enjoy your freedom of speech there. Clearly no one here will miss you, and you clearly won't miss us either.

[syncognition]

frog: I hope you realize that first amendment freedom of speech rights only prevent the government from stepping on your speech ("Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech"). Thankfully, Atlus (and by extension this forum) is a private business and is allowed to moderate as they please. Stop bringing up freedom of speech in forums, it is up to the business to decide what they will and won't allow. Thus is the way of the free market.

Now back on topic, I have been playing games all of my life (I'm 24), and I rarely need a guide. I like to have guides though and I buy them whenever they are available for an affordable price. Mostly for the purposes of collecting, but also because looking at an FAQ or posting on a forum is not as fast or convenient as looking at a table of contents in a book and turning to the correct page if I need help. Do I really want to pause my game, go into a different room, go on GameFAQs, and dig through a mile-long FAQ that may not even be complete? Or even if it is, may not be accurate? And if so, should I have to post on a message board and wait days to get an answer, or waste hours figuring out something via trial and error, all in the name of being "hardcore"?

This idea that somehow my purchasing of a guide will affect the difficulty or quality of future games is ridiculous. Games in general will become more mainstream regardless of whether people buy guides for them or not, because businesses exist to generate a profit. The more consumers that a company's product appeals to, the more money the company will make. If they don't make an effort to appeal to a larger audience and remain exclusive to one type of player, they will go the way of comics in the 90's and only be catering to an ever decreasing customer base.

Finally, this idea that there is concern over players following guides like a step-by-step manual is irrelevant. It isn't your concern to worry about how someone else plays a game. Their 'loss of problem solving skills' in no way affects you. Is there something wrong with a player who just wants the story? Sure, they could read a plot synopsis or a game script, but that doesn't give the dramatic experience or visual presentation. Some people like to be onlookers, and there is nothing wrong with that. They are buying the product and doing with it as they please. They are not stealing your copy or looking over your shoulder telling you how to play, so don't worry about it.

Geez, I went on way too long. I'll be amazed if people read this, but I think I've made my point.

[dungeon_man]

Check this article (http://kotaku.com/5354035/stop-telling-me-what-to-do) out and scroll down to "GAMES THAT ARE AFRAID PEOPLE WON'T UNDERSTAND THEM" (Or read the whole thing. It's interesting!). That seems germane to the conversation.

Basically, games hold your hand when you don't necessarily want them to because of the off chance that there are people who need it. "Sorry, you're too stupid to play this game" is not a viable approach for developers who want to attract and keep new players.

Thanks, that article was interesting, and I agree with the author that excessive hand-holding shouldn't be forced upon the people who do not need it.

A game I really liked was Nocturne. You know who taught me to play? Matador. He was like a Kung-Fu instructor beating the crap out of me until I became a great warrior. He taught me the value of stat buffs and attribute resistances. Later opponents pushed me to learn other techniques, and those discoveries kept me enthralled. However, I realize that many people gave up at Matador, and there should be a solution to that problem. What worries me is the impression that making everything easier in Strange Journey was the chosen solution.

A game shouldn't be difficult for the sake of being difficult, but it should have enough difficulty for it's design to matter. I've played RPGs whose plethora of abilities and combat techniques were meaningless because the game was so easy I could select anything and win. The choices didn't matter.

Nocturne did not share this flaw. My choices were often a matter of life and death. Sometimes victory relied upon using Pass or Summon instead of punching a guy. Other times, Bind or Fog Breath would prevent a beating. Whatever the case, most encounters required me to make relevant decisions. That was refreshing after playing games that boil down to "Attack and Heal".

My the real concern about Strange Journey is not that the game will be easier, but that the difficulty reduction and new combat system will allow the game to be played with an "Attack or Heal" mentality, thus rendering much of the game system irrelevant.


Most of the higher profile RPGs that have been released lately seem more complex than those aimed at niche audiences. Final Fantasy XIII is a good example. That's definitely a game designed to appeal to a large audience, yet the gameplay is much more complicated than what you'd find in, say, Etrian Odyssey or even Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey.

That is the wrong kind of complexity. A simple gameplay system can still hold lots of strategic depth. For example, Chess only has six different pieces and fairly basic rules, but the depth of it's strategy has kept it entertaining for centuries.


Despite their linear progression, Shin Megami Tensei games feature a lot of strategic depth. A game's strategic depth can be measured by the distance between the best and worst player. For all the varying degrees of "correct" combat and team-building decisions a player could make in Nocturne, there are also multiple degrees of "incorrect" decisions to be made.

Some people don't want a game where they can make bad decisions. Those people turn to guides or play other games. That cannot be helped and should not be helped. There are plenty of people who would love SMT that aren't playing. I hope Atlus finds a way to attract those gamers instead of changing SMT to be more accepted by people who don't really like what the games offer.


EDIT: This came up while I was writing and just wanted to address it.

It isn't your concern to worry about how someone else plays a game. Their 'loss of problem solving skills' in no way affects you.

Yes it does. How could anybody claim to be unaffected by changes to the world or society in which they live? As gamers increasingly treat games as a nearly passive form of entertainment, developers who wish to remain competitive must increasingly reduce the ability expected of the players. This erodes the traits I find appealing which reduces my enjoyment.

[syncognition]

It isn't your concern to worry about how someone else plays a game. Their 'loss of problem solving skills' in no way affects you.

Yes it does. How could anybody claim to be unaffected by changes to the world or society in which they live? As gamers increasingly treat games as a nearly passive form of entertainment, developers who wish to remain competitive must increasingly reduce the ability expected of the players. This erodes the traits I find appealing which reduces my enjoyment.

The original topic we were talking about was strategy guides, not the dumbing down of games. Have you thought about it from the perspective that many games could get harder to facilitate the sales of more guides? I don't know about you, but I sure as hell could've never figured out which chests I didn't need to open in FFXII without a guide, nor would I have ever had the time working a 45+ hour a week job to even complete persona 4 unless I had some foresight as to what needed to be done to progress. This is not for lack of decision making skills that I or many others use guides. I work as a floor supervisor at one of the largest residential ISPs in the US. Every minute of every day is problem solving. I (and again, undoubtedly others), don't have the time or even the will to care about spending hours figuring out a game when all we want to do is have fun.

If the goal of business is to find a need and fill it, then strategy guides do their part. There is nothing wrong with them or the people that use them, and they are not to blame for the dumbing down of games. Huge development budgets and the need to return profits to investors are. Games are becoming more accessible because the need to generate a return to investors is staggering, so this would have happened whether people play games with over-sized magazines in their laps or not. You are blaming the wrong people for the change in direction for gaming.

[LordShade]

Check this article (http://kotaku.com/5354035/stop-telling-me-what-to-do) out and scroll down to "GAMES THAT ARE AFRAID PEOPLE WON'T UNDERSTAND THEM" (Or read the whole thing. It's interesting!). That seems germane to the conversation.

Basically, games hold your hand when you don't necessarily want them to because of the off chance that there are people who need it. "Sorry, you're too stupid to play this game" is not a viable approach for developers who want to attract and keep new players.

Thanks, that article was interesting, and I agree with the author that excessive hand-holding shouldn't be forced upon the people who do not need it.

A game I really liked was Nocturne. You know who taught me to play? Matador. He was like a Kung-Fu instructor beating the crap out of me until I became a great warrior. He taught me the value of stat buffs and attribute resistances. Later opponents pushed me to learn other techniques, and those discoveries kept me enthralled. However, I realize that many people gave up at Matador, and there should be a solution to that problem. What worries me is the impression that making everything easier in Strange Journey was the chosen solution.

A game shouldn't be difficult for the sake of being difficult, but it should have enough difficulty for it's design to matter. I've played RPGs whose plethora of abilities and combat techniques were meaningless because the game was so easy I could select anything and win. The choices didn't matter.

Nocturne did not share this flaw. My choices were often a matter of life and death. Sometimes victory relied upon using Pass or Summon instead of punching a guy. Other times, Bind or Fog Breath would prevent a beating. Whatever the case, most encounters required me to make relevant decisions. That was refreshing after playing games that boil down to "Attack and Heal".

My the real concern about Strange Journey is not that the game will be easier, but that the difficulty reduction and new combat system will allow the game to be played with an "Attack or Heal" mentality, thus rendering much of the game system irrelevant.


Most of the higher profile RPGs that have been released lately seem more complex than those aimed at niche audiences. Final Fantasy XIII is a good example. That's definitely a game designed to appeal to a large audience, yet the gameplay is much more complicated than what you'd find in, say, Etrian Odyssey or even Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey.

That is the wrong kind of complexity. A simple gameplay system can still hold lots of strategic depth. For example, Chess only has six different pieces and fairly basic rules, but the depth of it's strategy has kept it entertaining for centuries.


Despite their linear progression, Shin Megami Tensei games feature a lot of strategic depth. A game's strategic depth can be measured by the distance between the best and worst player. For all the varying degrees of "correct" combat and team-building decisions a player could make in Nocturne, there are also multiple degrees of "incorrect" decisions to be made.

Some people don't want a game where they can make bad decisions. Those people turn to guides or play other games. That cannot be helped and should not be helped. There are plenty of people who would love SMT that aren't playing. I hope Atlus finds a way to attract those gamers instead of changing SMT to be more accepted by people who don't really like what the games offer.


EDIT: This came up while I was writing and just wanted to address it.

It isn't your concern to worry about how someone else plays a game. Their 'loss of problem solving skills' in no way affects you.

Yes it does. How could anybody claim to be unaffected by changes to the world or society in which they live? As gamers increasingly treat games as a nearly passive form of entertainment, developers who wish to remain competitive must increasingly reduce the ability expected of the players. This erodes the traits I find appealing which reduces my enjoyment.

One note-Matador was added to the Maniacs release, which actually toned down the difficulty of the original SMTIII. Thor actually had the "earliest tough boss" there. I believe Matador was a mandatory boss, versus the optional rest, was just to compensate for the lowered difficulty, though it is easier in general

The reason you use Fog Breath so much is because Buffs and Debuffs are broken in Nocturne, as they generally are in the main SMT series, and tith the Press Turn system, AG Buffs/Debuffs were made MUCH more broken. I believe the Debuffs can miss in SJ, making them less broken.

As for "attack-heal" battles, most non-boss battles, and a good number of boss battles, turned out that way in Nocturne, as well, a good number would fall quite easily if you abused Dark/Bright might at the appropriate phase. The main thing required was preparation. Most of the battles didn't require anything sophisticated in battle to win, now that I think about,there were very few boss battle that went beyond debuffing your enemies, then going into "attack-heal" mode. They made bosses immune to Status effects, unlike earlier games, which is a cheap way of difficulty enhancement that too many RPG's do these days, come to think f it, they rarely worked on ANY enemy unless they were weak to it. So I think they could have done better with Nocturne's battles as well, mainly because of the general lack of balance that shows. After the initial few buffs/debuffs/whatever else, you could just auto-battle until you needed to heal.

I'm just pointing out that Nocturne had similar flaws to the ones your mentioning, you just needed more preparation that normal to beat anything. Same thing with SJ

[Karkarov]

The original topic we were talking about was strategy guides, not the dumbing down of games. Have you thought about it from the perspective that many games could get harder to facilitate the sales of more guides? I don't know about you, but I sure as hell could've never figured out which chests I didn't need to open in FFXII without a guide, nor would I have ever had the time working a 45+ hour a week job to even complete persona 4 unless I had some foresight as to what needed to be done to progress.

Your right games could get harder to facilitate the sales of more guides if not for on catch 22. The companies making the guides aren't the companies that make the games most of the time and the producers of said games are not getting a cut of guide sales. I do imagine they get some sort of one time lump some payment though for the rights to make the guide...

Meanwhile when Persona 4 came out I was working a 50 hour a week job and got sick with a over 100 degree fever thanks to the flu and I still beat it handily and got all the secrets (that mattered to me anyway, true ending etc) without the use of any guide or internet.

Games don't need to be dumbded down any more than they already are. I agree old schemes of games are not necessarily worthy of being kept around but I shouldn't need a what seems like an hour or longer tutorial in a game I can beat just about any normal encounter by setting one person to heal and everyone else to auto attack then just holding one button. I am looking at you FF13.

[Vicious1915]

It isn't your concern to worry about how someone else plays a game. Their 'loss of problem solving skills' in no way affects you.

Yes it does. How could anybody claim to be unaffected by changes to the world or society in which they live? As gamers increasingly treat games as a nearly passive form of entertainment, developers who wish to remain competitive must increasingly reduce the ability expected of the players. This erodes the traits I find appealing which reduces my enjoyment.

The original topic we were talking about was strategy guides, not the dumbing down of games. Have you thought about it from the perspective that many games could get harder to facilitate the sales of more guides? I don't know about you, but I sure as hell could've never figured out which chests I didn't need to open in FFXII without a guide, nor would I have ever had the time working a 45+ hour a week job to even complete persona 4 unless I had some foresight as to what needed to be done to progress. This is not for lack of decision making skills that I or many others use guides. I work as a floor supervisor at one of the largest residential ISPs in the US. Every minute of every day is problem solving. I (and again, undoubtedly others), don't have the time or even the will to care about spending hours figuring out a game when all we want to do is have fun.

If the goal of business is to find a need and fill it, then strategy guides do their part. There is nothing wrong with them or the people that use them, and they are not to blame for the dumbing down of games. Huge development budgets and the need to return profits to investors are. Games are becoming more accessible because the need to generate a return to investors is staggering, so this would have happened whether people play games with over-sized magazines in their laps or not. You are blaming the wrong people for the change in direction for gaming.

Thank you for making this excellent point.

I don't understand why this topic is repeatedly debated amongst gamers when the truth of the matter is as you've stated it above: It is no one's concern how someone else plays their game. I'm another who doesn't have the time or desire to run through a game repeatedly in order to have it turn out the way I'd like. I want to recruit whom I'd like, find or forge the equipment or items I want/need, and get through the game without any regrets about what I might have missed the first playthrough. There's no harm or shame in that and it's no one's business but mine.

[MoogleGunner]

I usually end up using a guide for one reason or another, probably because I got into the SMT series rather late. But I'm actually specifically avoiding information about Strange Journey. I got about half way - 3/4ths of the way through Devil Survivor before I looked up a guide, mainly because I wanted to have access to Naoya's route (ended up taking Atsuro, but damn the Naoya fight was hard).

I'm really looking forward to enjoying Strange Journey unaided, and contrasting it with my Nocturne Experience (about to go into the tower, have used guides for some of the harder fights, and puzzle boy, plus understanding the alignment system).

I suspect I'll enjoy Strange Journey more due to not having any real knowledge about the game going into it.

[Dim Locator]

I'm breaking this off because it doesn't really belong in reviews.

Anyway, I like to have info on all the demons and the like, and I like to actually be able to COMPLETE a game.

Fortunately, neither of those things require a guide.


and please "make a strategy guide for sj."

why in the hell would you want that?? please dont even make a FAQ until one year after it's release, or better yet, never. you should not being playing these type of games if you need this kind of help. it's pretty much the reason why so many females are playing these games now, those goddamn guides and emo approach to character design in modern RPG's. and because of that, we now have so many girl power RPG's, it makes me sick.

the male saves and nails the princess, keep it that way.


I agree with Frog's sentiment, but not the specifics regarding females. RPGs have attracted a large following that aren't serious about the gameplay of the genre because they've been drawn in by the characters and stories. I don't care who's playing RPGs until it begins to affect me, and it does affect me when the gameplay becomes simplified to attract the non-gamer crowd.

From reading various forums, it looks like the majority of people playing RPGs have almost no decision making capabilities, and are incapable of observing enemy patterns and adapting their strategies accordingly. In short, people who rely upon guides to complete every game are losing their problem solving skills.

Considering the forum, the most important question here is whether or not Strange Journey has been simplified to draw in the non-gamers. On the plus side, the hedge maze has me interested from a puzzle-solving standpoint. Also, Devil Survivor was plenty challenging, so I don't expect a huge about-face in the SMT series difficulty level. On the other hand, reports of a lower difficulty curve and a less engaging combat system worry me.

I'll know the real deal in a few weeks, and I remain optimistic. Even if the combat isn't especially challenging, I expect it to require active mental involvement like all other SMT games I've played, so I expect it to be an enjoyable experience for the gamer in me.

Not everyone uses guides in the manner you suggest. I would assume most don't actually.

[Dim Locator]

Yes it does. How could anybody claim to be unaffected by changes to the world or society in which they live? As gamers increasingly treat games as a nearly passive form of entertainment, developers who wish to remain competitive must increasingly reduce the ability expected of the players. This erodes the traits I find appealing which reduces my enjoyment.

One: Guides can nulify you're complaint about games being watered down since if a game is too hard there is an answer easily available

Two: Not enough people play SMT games for the inclusion of guides/or lack to effect society or their problem solving skills.

Tempest in a teapot.

[dungeon_man]

Guides can nulify you're complaint about games being watered down since if a game is too hard there is an answer easily available

History has shown that it doesn't actually work that way. Games get guides based on popularity, not difficulty, and the easiest RPGs tend to be the most popular.

Heck, the first big guide was Nintendo Power's Final Fantasy guide. Final Fantasy was incredibly easy, and included full item, spell, and monster lists, plus a complete world map and maps for half of the game's dungeons. The existence of a guide looked like a big joke, but that is the direction the industry took.

I disagree with virtually everything that was written since my last post, but I don't want to sit and argue all day. Finally got Strange Journey. Would rather be playing it than arguing about it or reading a guide. :)

[Chronoshale]

While I agree that mindlessly following a guide throughout the entire game is an odd and frowned-upon way of playing, I personally use strategy guides or online FAQs for the simple fact that I'm horrible at finding and completing side quests/unlockables/etc. And I also don't see anything wrong with using a guide for that boss that you just can't manage to beat or that puzzle you've spent a good few hours on and are getting annoyed with.

Oh, and they're fun to collect. <3

And I also agree with the "holding your hands" part of that article. Games lately seem to have forgotten that manuals exist, and that if the player isn't willing to take the five minutes required to skim through it, then that's his/her own problem. One or two tutorials to get the hang of things is fine, but when the game spends hours force-feeding you what's already in the manual, then there's a problem.

[poiuiu]

It's really too bad game guides in english are only half a step better than toilet paper made from old cardboard scraps in terms of functionality (which is several steps under quality TP btw). Because Japan has always had great strategy guides for just about every game made and no one complains about them. Main reasons? They're in-depth, very informative, full of artwork and relative screen shots, well written and are relatively cheap, even compared to english guides which usually retail for 18-25 bucks each, and they're usually flimsy as well. And this quality is the same for smaller games as well and not just the big rpg ones.

tl;dr Strategy guides in english wouldn't have such a bad rep is they weren't so ####ty. And for games that have you collect or build your own party, I'm all for using a guide if only to see how a character grows. After all, you don't approach tigers without knowing you can fend it off with a tiger-warding-rock.

[dungeon_man]

Japan has always had great strategy guides for just about every game made and no one complains about them. Main reasons? They're in-depth, very informative, full of artwork and relative screen shots...

Of the few strategy guides I do own, I mostly enjoy looking through them for the artwork. Kinda like a substitute for an artbook.


I also don't see anything wrong with using a guide for that boss that you just can't manage to beat or that puzzle you've spent a good few hours on and are getting annoyed with.

Likewise. I'll check out forums or GameFaqs if I'm really stuck on something, but I'll always put forth a big effort first.