The Last Story, Xenoblade

[sfried]

First up is the mysterious The Last Story (pretty close to 'Final Fantasy', heh), which is going to be an RPG co-developed by Nintendo and Sakaguchi-san's MistWalker. The Last Story will have a story with the theme of the universal feelings held by people. The Last Story is most likely the game that MistWalker has been teasing for a long time, and is for the Wii system. Nintendo and MistWalker aim to create a new form of RPG with The Last Story. The Last Story is slated for release sometime this year.

Next is another Wii RPG named Xenoblade, it is developed by Monolith Software and the latest game from Xenosaga's Tetsuya Takahashi. Xenoblade is slated for release in Japan in Spring 2010.

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/slsj/index.html
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/sx4j/index.html
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/1756/2132405849full.jpg

Thanks to a heads up from this thread (http://forums.platinumgames.com//showpost.php?p=24764&postcount=1).

[Hamel]

I hope it's the thing that will close the gap between Xenogears and Saga

[Soushi_Grapple]

I remember reading that Saga was just a spiritual successor and there was something in the timeline that made it not a sequel..

All I can see is a Cloud like guy wielding a keyblade. Too much Square lately, I guess.

[Flußkönig]

Uh, I am pretty sure Xenoblade is just Monado renamed for jp. It is doubtful it will have anything to do with XG or XS.

I think it might finally be time to get a Wii.

[sfried]

All I can see is a Cloud like guy wielding a keyblade. Too much Tetsuya Nomura lately, I guess.
Fix'd

Also, the true spiritual successor to Xenogears is actually Sands of Destruction, or so I've heard. (Must be because of Masato Kato's involvement.)

[Flußkönig]

^The lack of Takahashi or Soraya Saga would seem to make that statement grossly inaccurate at best.

[Foobar]

I got Sands of Destruction and... its ok... I guess. They really, really, really did some extentsive compression to get the video and voice over on the DS card. So much the loss of quality was pretty noticeable. They should have just cut the voices out if it was going to be that fuzzy and underacted.

Gameplay is indeed reminicent of Xenogears, though.

All the same, I'm very interested in these two new RPG IPs popping up from Nintendo's side. I've been kinda disappointed in current-gen RPGs so far and felt very much that production costs for RPGs on PS3 and 360 had pretty much forced all smaller studios to do DS, PSP or PC development to get by.

And even as much money as Square-Enix and Bioware are, they seem to need to gouge gamers, cut off content to sell later, which has pretty much turned me off from Dragon Age and FFXIII. That stuff might be "normal" to other gamers now, but if that's how SE and Bioware want to play it, I just won't buy thier games new and to hell with "exclusive" DLC I miss out on.

So, Shiren the Wanderer, Xenoblade and The Last Story have my attention now. I thought complete RPGs would be a relic of a bygone era for consoles.

[Vyse of Arcadia]

I remember reading that Saga was just a spiritual successor and there was something in the timeline that made it not a sequel..

If anything it was a spiritual prequel, and I'm a bit fuzzy on my Xenosaga-lore, but I do believe there is a thing or two that prevents Xenogears from being a sequel.

[Flußkönig]

The best way to describe the relationship shared between Xenogears and Xenosaga is that they have parallel story lines.

There are similarities between Xenosaga's storyline and what we know about early Xenogear episodes from perfect works as well as plenty of XG references and homage in Xenosaga, but no direct connections between the two stories.

[Soushi_Grapple]

I keep hearing about Sands of Destruction but for some reason this totally went under my radar. Hope I can find a copy in April when I have $$ XP

[Foobar]

I keep hearing about Sands of Destruction but for some reason this totally went under my radar. Hope I can find a copy in April when I have $$ XP

That's because Sega doesn't spend money on marketing DS titles. They localize, sneak it out in very limited quantities and you probably won't see the major sites even touch them in review.

That's why I have Infinite Space preordered. Even though its a Platinum Games/Nude Maker title, I have my doubts Sega is going to take advantage of their recent successes (Bayonetta, Madworld) and market it as strongly as they should.

[Kenji]

Uh, I am pretty sure Xenoblade is just Monado renamed for jp.
This is the truth.

Because of that, I am very confused. I really don't understand the rationale of renaming Monado "in honor of Tetsuya Takahashi" and, presumably, to boost sales. Last I checked, Xenosaga wasn't exactly... profitable.

Then again, this thing could come out and have all kinds of everything to do with the Xenoverse, for all I know. So, I really don't know what to say other than, "I hope it's good."

[Foobar]

I think the lessons learned from Xenosaga were mostly lessons where Monolith Soft learned one important thing:

Don't let Namco tell you what to do with your RPG, they can barely make good ones on their own. The Tales series mostly garners sympathy applause.

Namco pushed Xenosaga to be something it shouldn't have been - Final Fantasy. In fact, it took what was perceived to be the selling point of Final Fantasy - cinematics - and just took it too far, disrupting the gameplay experience. Not even Xenogears of Final Fantasy went to such extremes.

And then they broke the RPG elements pretty bad in the second game.

Seeing as they're not being ruled by the strange whims of Namco now, I say give 'em a fair shake and see how they do. This will probably be its own game, but have some knowing nods to the other Xeno games here and there.

[Vyse of Arcadia]

Xenogears didn't go to extremes with cinematics, but it certainly did with storytelling. The second disc's peculiar narration is infamous for this.

From what little I've seen, and my own respect for the developers (I blame Xenosaga on Namco, especially episodes 2 and 3,) I have every intention of playing Xenoblade/Monado, whatever it's called. And on that topic, Xenogears may not have sold all that well, but it's highly respected. Xenosaga less so. But either of them are more recognizable than "Monado."

Besides, maybe it really will have connections to the other Xenogames. If nothing else, there appear to be giant robots.

[sfried]

Since it hasn't been posted yet, first trailer (http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/slsj/trailer/) of The Last Story.

[Karkarov]

Since it hasn't been posted yet, first trailer (http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/slsj/trailer/) of The Last Story.

Interesting trailer. I like where they are going with the combat design. Obviously more tactical with turn based actions but at the same time it takes a real time approach to how it presents it. Doesn't seem like there was alot of wait between actions either.

Also Xenosaga was supposed to be the "re write" that covered the whole story when Xenogears was originally only like part 6 or some such. We all know what happened though when namco started screwing with the game.

[DarkRPGMaster]

Namco has made bad decisions ever since the merger with Bandai, so them screwing with Xenoblade was no big surprise there.

And on Last Story, it seems the JRPG genre has just evolved.

[Kid Marin]

Gamekult loved Xenoblade:

Pros:

* Rich gameplay
* Catchy story
* Inspired musics
* Strong direction
* Huge landscapes
* +++100 side quests
* Free and fluid progression
* Dunban's VA

Cons:

* Limited control of the inventory
* No bestiary
* Basic AI
* Noisy fights
* A few tech problems

Conclusion:

Great freedom feeling (similar to DQVIII & FFXII) - A must have for Wii owners - New JRPG landmark. http://www.gamekult.com/tout/jeux/fiches/J000096804_test.html

[RayFoxSith]

I like the way Last Story is shaping up to be. Really cool battle system. Nice to see Mistwalker tackle a new approach.

[Alkaiser]

Namco has made bad decisions ever since the merger with Bandai, so them screwing with Xenoblade was no big surprise there.
You're implying that Namco has never screwed up before the merger.

[Flußkönig]

Namco has made bad decisions ever since the merger with Bandai, so them screwing with Xenoblade was no big surprise there.
You're implying that Namco has never screwed up before the merger.

Namco doesn't have anything to do with Xenoblade, so there is no reason to worry about NB screwing anything up. Well, unless NB acquire the rights to publish the game in NA, but that seems unlikely.

[DarkRPGMaster]

Namco has made bad decisions ever since the merger with Bandai, so them screwing with Xenoblade was no big surprise there.
You're implying that Namco has never screwed up before the merger.
I wasn't aware of Namco until Xenosaga Episode 1.

[Karkarov]

I wasn't aware of Namco until Xenosaga Episode 1.

Namco has been around for some time now, so has Bandai for that matter.

[Vyse of Arcadia]

Namco has made bad decisions ever since the merger with Bandai, so them screwing with Xenoblade was no big surprise there.
You're implying that Namco has never screwed up before the merger.
I wasn't aware of Namco until Xenosaga Episode 1.

Namco. The company that made Pac-Man. I mean, I can understand not knowing Bandai, but Namco... that's impressive. Surely you'd at least heard the name? Or you're just talking about Namco in the context of RPGs?

[DarkRPGMaster]

Namco has made bad decisions ever since the merger with Bandai, so them screwing with Xenoblade was no big surprise there.
You're implying that Namco has never screwed up before the merger.
I wasn't aware of Namco until Xenosaga Episode 1.

Namco. The company that made Pac-Man. I mean, I can understand not knowing Bandai, but Namco... that's impressive. Surely you'd at least heard the name? Or you're just talking about Namco in the context of RPGs?
In the context of RPGs. I never played a Tales game until after the merger (that was when I first got Tales of Legendia).

[Phoenix_Apollo]

Why is it that I feel like that sometimes, I'm the only one who loved Xenosaga (Ep 1 and 3 at least) for what it was and that it's excess in storytelling/cinematics and the resulting increase in characterization was the thing that set it apart and made it better than Final Fantasy? I would much prefer if there were more games like Xenosaga (again, like either Ep. 1 or 3, NOT 2!) than Final Fantasy, but I digress.

So, what are the opinions from people who have played/are playing Xenoblade? I've been hearing some pretty mixed opinions (some really like it, some really don't [which seems to happen with each Takahashi work]) but the seemingly good stuff I've heard from Japan makes me hopeful that it is indeed everything I hope it is and more. The music certainly is.

[DarkRPGMaster]

I loved Ep 1 and Ep 3 of Xenosaga. Episode 2 was too short and didn't have enough story. But 1 and 3 gave me that fill of characterization. Only thing they could have added to Ep 3 would be more Albedo crazy laugh. I LOVE that laugh.

[Vyse of Arcadia]

I only played Ep. 1 (although I own both 2 and 3.) I'm an incredibly huge fan of Xenogears, though. I even used to be a moderator at a Xenoforum (that has since more or less drama'd itself out of existence.)

I would just like to caution you all to avoid Xenosaga the Animation like the plague. Unless you like putting an ax through your teevee in rage, then by all means.

I've heard nothing but good things about Xenoblade. Very much looking forward to it. I'd think about importing it if my Japanese was better/I had any money.

[DarkRPGMaster]

Oh god that animation made me RAGE! I despise it so...and it's a shame we'll never get Xenosaga I & II for the DS.

[Karkarov]

Xenosaga 2 could have been good if it weren't for the painfull overly complex battle system that made every boss fight a literal chore. That and the desire to make the game more "movie" and less game. The art and style of Xenosaga 1 was fine, why did they have to change it all? 3 could have been good but it was too rushed, too much crap rammed into too little space.

Xenosaga 1 had too many cinematics, sorry but it did, the fact that a hour and a half long movie of nothing but cut together chunks of them exists and it actually coherently tells the story is bad enough. It means the game was literally almost a movie, and if it is going to be a movie there is no point in forcing it to be a game. That said I still liked 1 and it was the best of the three.

But Xenogears is still better than all three of them by a mile :p

[Phoenix_Apollo]

I'm not giving up on I&II until the DS is completely dead, and I mean deader than the PS2 is now. I would gladly take having that game localized in English instead of Xenoblade, even. Maybe they'll do it if Xenoblade is popular or something. Or if they remake Ep. 3 for the 3DS. I don't care as long as I get it.

Also, I've been waiting for a copy for Xenogears for at least four months with money in hand and everything. Any day now, that classic game shop is gonna call...

As for the Animation, I started to watch it, but it didn't impress me enough to continue to. The only thing I'd watch it for is to see the Jin/Pellegri backstory that was only so lightly touched on before.

Episode II...I think I realized how much I hated it when I got through the first disc in just over six hours on my second playthrough. Six hours. Without skipping a cutscene. (Yeah, I didn't do all the sidequests but still) How does a game company get away with putting less content on more discs when Episode I was only one disc itself? It boggles the mind.

I just really wish they'd go ahead and make a Xenogears or Xenosaga book because I can just imagine the anger Takahashi and Soraya Saga had when their second attempt at publishing their epic tale failed again, or even the first time. It would be like if George Lucas had to shut down Star Wars before Episode 5 and 6 were made. Or if Tolkien stopped with Lord of the Rings after The Fellowship of the Ring. All of the amazing story that the public would have missed is just astounding.

Thanks, Square and Namco. Thanks for collectively screwing them over twice.

And you know, it angers me when people compain about Xenosaga's cutscenes. The whole point was for a more cinematic style of gaming that no one had really seen before, but it seems like a lot of people missed the point and expected it to be like everything else and judged it as so. The whole point was to reward the player with an enriching, deep, complex story that was actually prevailant in the game. So what if it was like a movie at times? If someone is so impatient as to go "GAH SCREW ALL THESE CUTSCENES I JUST WANT MORE GAMEPLAY" the game isn't for them.

And it's really sad, you know? Because if it were a movie series or a TV show, it likely would have been massacred to death with cut content that would simplify and drastically shorten what was going on. Aside from books, video games are the only type of media that can tell a story that is just massive without worrying about shortening it into two hours per installment or half an hour/hour shows. Video games can easily take 30 hours to complete per installment, which allows for so much story related content, it would be better to scrap the story altogether than to try to convert it into something smaller, which is why a novelization would be nice.

[Flußkönig]

^Just blaming Square or Scamco is a little short sighted. Part of the problem with the Xeno games is that Takahashi's ambitious expectations exceeded the capacity of the development teams working on the games.

Thankfully it looks like he learned his lesson with Xenoblade/Monada.

The art and style of Xenosaga 1 was fine, why did they have to change it all?
I disagree. The designs in XS 1 were inconsistent and unpolished. The art design in later games simply adopted a standard look for all the characters and increased the texture quality of the designs.

3 could have been good but it was too rushed, too much crap rammed into too little space.

I have seen people mention this in the context that the XS team crammed a material from later games into XS 3. I don't know if that is what you mean, but there is no reason to believe that is true. It was made clear from the inception of the series that the later games were meant to take place far in the future.

If anything, the material from A Missing Year was kept out of XS 3 in order to keep it a reasonable length and to cut down on development time.

[sabaku_lotus]

Why is it that I feel like that sometimes, I'm the only one who loved Xenosaga (Ep 1 and 3 at least) for what it was and that it's excess in storytelling/cinematics and the resulting increase in characterization was the thing that set it apart and made it better than Final Fantasy? I would much prefer if there were more games like Xenosaga (again, like either Ep. 1 or 3, NOT 2!) than Final Fantasy, but I digress.

My friend liked this whole series, all the parts, and didn't like Xenogears and claimed that Xenogears was first and saga was second in the story line. Tried to explain it was backwards story telling and that Xenogears was last and we used to argue a lot so....

My view about Xenosaga was messed up already from that and watching him play. (omg I hated the mech battles...I missed Xenogears kung fu >.<) I personally like most rpgs but I didn't enjoy overhyped ones, (big fan of Wild arms and Star ocean before 3 and 4,) but I thought about giving Xenosaga another shot...maybe. I'm a little annoyed because I had the original copy of Xenogear, twice. Yes the original one as well as the demo game.

Is the DS lite version that bad?

I'm going to play Xenoblade or whatever it's called....and pray I didn't waste any cash trying to get this or a Wii if it's Wii only.

[Kenji]

Ever since I all but decided to not buy FFXIII, I've become even more interested in The Last Story and Xenoblade. In addition to seeing what Sakaguchi and Takahashi can do, I'm also interested to see what these two games (if good and profitable) will do to the balance of RPGs among the consoles. Specifically, if it will attract currently unsatisfied JRPG players to the Wii.

The Last Story strikes me as nothing more or less than "Final Fantasy Mark II," which I'm more than fine with. The current managers of the FF can do what they like, but the direction they're going is becoming increasingly uninteresting to me. Nowadays, I'll buy a Matsuno-developed game, The 3rd Birthday (with the hope it doesn't have the soul-crushing melodrama that rules FF, currently), and the odd FF that does something different or rubs me the right way (The Crystal Bearers), but my disinterest in FFXIII and its brand of storytelling leaves me open to Sakaguchi's efforts.

Likewise, I was fond of Xenosaga Episodes I and III (II can burn in Hell... The Master may have a constant four-beat drumming in his head, but I have that godawful Second Miltia BGM looping in mine), though I judge Episode I to be the superior game, full of depth and nuance... too bad it's far too short and doesn't have the time to live up to its potential. I'm interested to see how Xenoblade will stack up to that.

[Flußkönig]

My friend liked this whole series, all the parts, and didn't like Xenogears and claimed that Xenogears was first and saga was second in the story line. Tried to explain it was backwards story telling and that Xenogears was last and we used to argue a lot so....



You are both wrong. XG and XS are not parts of the same story.

It is true that there are some similarities between the two, but in the end the two story lines and plot points are fundamentally different.

[DarkRPGMaster]

My friend liked this whole series, all the parts, and didn't like Xenogears and claimed that Xenogears was first and saga was second in the story line. Tried to explain it was backwards story telling and that Xenogears was last and we used to argue a lot so....


You are both wrong. XG and XS are not parts of the same story.

It is true that there are some similarities between the two, but in the end the two story lines and plot points are fundamentally different.
Originally they were supposed to be, but after 2 bombed, the guys said F*** it, and made it its own dimension thing. If they hadn't screwed up 2, we would have Xenosaga Episode 4 at this point...and it would probably tell us how Xenogears occured. They said they were catering to the fans with 2, so I have only this to say:

Way to go, you ruined it for everybody! Had it not been for you guys saying how you wanted more gameplay and less story, we would actually know how it all led to Xenogears. But now it's a spiritual successor. Now I NEVER want to hear you tell what you want in a videogame series, since you obviously ruin things with your ideas.

[Kenji]

The problem with Episode II wasn't that it had more gameplay than storyline, it's that its gameplay was poorly designed and its story was the artificially lengthened remnants of Episode I's climax (the original "8min, 8sec" trailer for Episode I teased what ultimately became Episode II's plot points; the bundling of both stories into the DS game furthers this idea; I think Missing Year and Episode III contain the actual Episode II story).

The formula of Episode I drastically needed rebalancing, but it didn't require a complete overhaul of the combat system (for the worse) and a failure to utilize the imperatives of a non-random combat structure (what's the point of showing enemies on the field if you can't avoid them?).

All that was really necessary was to spread out the story sections more evenly and incorporate them more into the gameplay so it doesn't feel so much like we're alternating between playing a game and watching a movie. Also, actually explaining the nuances of Episode I's deep combat and stat systems would've been much appreciated: there were more than a few players who got lost.

So, please, save your rant. The problem was quality, not ideology.

For those interested, this absolutely fascinating analysis of the Xenoverse's themes (http://forums.xenotensei.com/index.php?topic=358.0) is worth a read. If my hopes mean anything, I want Xenoblade to have something to do with this prospective "third arc," so I can finally have some closure over the Xenoverse.

[Flußkönig]

My friend liked this whole series, all the parts, and didn't like Xenogears and claimed that Xenogears was first and saga was second in the story line. Tried to explain it was backwards story telling and that Xenogears was last and we used to argue a lot so....


You are both wrong. XG and XS are not parts of the same story.

It is true that there are some similarities between the two, but in the end the two story lines and plot points are fundamentally different.
Originally they were supposed to be, but after 2 bombed, the guys said F*** it, and made it its own dimension thing. If they hadn't screwed up 2, we would have Xenosaga Episode 4 at this point...and it would probably tell us how Xenogears occured.
I have never seen any actual proof (beyond some speculative stuff in the original XS trailer that never made it into the final release) that XS was ever supposed to follow XG's story line.

For all intent and purposes S-E owns all of the XG source material, so it is unlikely that Monolithsoft could have used it even if that was they had originally planned.

[Kenji]

A good way to think of it is that Xenosaga represents a further evolution of the Xenogears story concept. Version 2.0, if you would. Since so many elements of their respective stories are "public domain," there can be a lot of overlap between the two. Abel could've even reincarnated into Wong Fei-hung, since neither are original creations. Elly van Houten, on the other hand, is owned by Square-Enix and therefore would've been renamed, though "Elly" or "van Houten" could've easily been preserved, as they're common names (see Jin Uzuki).

However, Xenogears was never going to be left "as-is," even in Takahashi's original plan. The inclusion of KOS-MOS and chaos in the larger saga (he mentioned them being present in the entire series), which would presumably include a version of Xenogears, is proof enough of that.

[Flußkönig]

^ Eh, that is pure speculation on your part as we will never know if there was an alternative version of Xenogears planned for the XS universe. As for the using of similar names and appearances thing, I don't think that is a big deal in the jrpg industry. Remaking a game that another company owns the rights to is kind of unlikely though.

But, My one and only point is that XS isn't XG. It never was and it never will be.

I don't really see much reason to speculate about what XS might have been at this point.

[Phoenix_Apollo]

First of all, I apologize for this epicly long post, as for the double post. Since there's a character limit, I've had to split this reply into two posts.

Just blaming Square or Scamco is a little short sighted. Part of the problem with the Xeno games is that Takahashi's ambitious expectations exceeded the capacity of the development teams working on the games.


Honestly, it seems that this always happens in the gaming world. Whenever there's a series that is supposed to more or less chronicle a story arc containing many installments/chapters it gets canceled. It happened with Xenogears, Xenosaga, Shenmue and Advent Rising just to name a few. Something always seems to go wrong during development or not enough sales support it's continuation or something like that. Something always screws it up, yet these days it seems like a lot of sequels happen out of accident or just appear out of nowhere. Final Fantasy X got a sequel because of it's popularity, same with FFVII. Just purely out of accident, but when people set down to try and make games this way from the start things go wrong and it never gets to completion. It's probably the most disappointing aspect to me in all of gaming.

I mean, intentionally sequelized books come out all of the time and usually get the sequels they're supposed to get. Why can't video games just have a case of that once? That's what bugs me the most.

Thankfully it looks like he learned his lesson with Xenoblade/Monada.


What, that if you aim high and are really ambitious you're bound to fail so you might as well not even try? I'd rather him keep doing what he did, to be honest. Maybe some day he'd get the epic series he wanted if he tried maybe one more time or with a reboot.

I have seen people mention this in the context that the XS team crammed a material from later games into XS 3. I don't know if that is what you mean, but there is no reason to believe that is true. It was made clear from the inception of the series that the later games were meant to take place far in the future.


Originally writing this post, I was pretty sure about the cramming, but now I wonder. To me, Episode III is kinda like a portion of the Xenoverse's cutting room floor. It seemed like it was both trying to end the Chapter that Xenosaga I and II were both making up, while answering questions that weren't supposed to be until later since they knew it was the premature end, which lead to a compressed narrative. But before I continue with that, what I want to mention right now is that the chapter/part that we were supposed to get with Xenosaga Episodes I and II was in fact spread across all three games. Not only the fact that I and II were later combined, but also the fact that plot points from that part also appeared in Episode III and Pied Piper (and maybe A Missing Year, I dunno about that). I was reading some things a while ago from (the now defunct) site Zenosaga about some of the plot points that were edited, changed, etc. as well as Soraya's situation when she originally "quit" the series. I luckily found the list reposted elsewhere. Take it how you like, but I personally believe it Source (http://forums.xgam.org/index.php?showtopic=9137):


"I would like to personally thank Soraya Saga for allowing me the opportunity to repost her FAQ verbatim from her personal web site regarding the Xenosaga series and clarifying a few aspect of the direction in which the series is headed.

This may shed some light on why Xenosaga Episode II appears to be missing "something". It is only fair that Xenogears and Xenosaga Episode I fans are aware of what the new development team at Monolithsoft are doing with Takahashi-san's masterpiece. This FAQ will remain visible until Soraya Saga requests that it is removed.
This page is a summary of FAQ section that was once temporarily placed due to hundreds of inquiries arising from unexpected media coverages of Jan/18/2005 about Soraya's leaving Xenosaga series. Answers were offered only for the purpose of clearing so many misunderstandings. Soraya and this site have no intention of announcing the answers loudly.

1. Soraya noted "Soraya has quit this series. No questions please." in very small fonts on her job history page in this site January 1st, 2005. She used the word "quit" for "to depart from", but not for "to abandon". It was simply her current job status.

2. January 19, 2005 morning (JST), Soraya received some threatening E-mails from upset people. Mails accused Soraya as if she were the traitor, deserter deserved to die.

3. Soraya wondered how the situation suddenly happend. An E-mail from North America has kindly let her know that several game-news sites reported her leaving. Some of those sites brought somewhat misleading views, without any confirmation of the facts.

4. Soraya decided to give answers to most frequently questions. The following are the summary of answers.

* Leaving was not Soraya's decision. Soraya was told goodbye same as in the case of other Episode I artists including Mr. Yasunori Mitsuda, Mr. Kunihiko Tanaka, and the Mr. you-know-who. (Please do not ask Soraya who he is.)
* Soraya is a freelance artist.
* There was no particular reason behind the displacement of old artists. The new director of Xenosaga II/III just wants the saga all new.
* The official advertisement says the new saga will have new sounds, new designs (as seen in Epsode II) and more easier story to read (as seen in the disc 2 of the Episode II).
* Soraya and Tetsuya Takahashi were marginally involved in the Episode II by contributing the first version of the script. (It was not a plot outline but a complete script including actual characters' lines.)
* Soraya's last contribution to the saga was the first version of the script for the Episode II and rewrites of The Pied Piper. (The game for Vodafone sold in Japan 2004)
* The shortened/adapted script of the Episode II is by Monolithsoft.
* You can see Soraya's mark she left to the Episode II in:
o The conversation between Juli and Ziggy
o Momo Encephalon (In first version, It was not Juli's idea of destroying Momo's memory, but a subcommitteeman's. Juli hesitated.)
o The story about U.R.T.V. (with the exception of the chapters after Momo Encephalon and young Albedo's verbal abuse/violent acts against Sakura. They were added by Monolithsoft.)
o Albedo's short speech about the higher dimension. (His last words "You look like you lost your sweetheart ... anyway I hate you both" were added by Monolithsoft.)
* Soraya doesn't know what the story of the Episode III will be like. The new writer of the Episode III will write a new story in his style. (The chapters after Momo Encephalon and Disc 2 are his style.)
* The new team has the right to change or ignore Takahashi's plot outline.
* Soraya and Takahashi have been willing to help the new team if requested.
* Soraya can not comment on Takahashi's current status.
* Soraya wrote approximately half of of the script for the Episode I. She is responsible for:
o Ziggy and his family, Voyager, Momo, Mizrahis, Godwins, Yuriev, U.R.T.V.s, and the part of Shion during her stay in Durandal and the Kookai Foundation
* Soraya is not an expensive artist.
* Soraya has created no delay.
* The parent company is not responsible to the changeover.
* The Episode II had the same amount of budget as the Episode I.
* The first version of the script by Soraya and Takahashi was not religiously or politically sensitive. It had just harmless chapters like:
o Ziggy's past history (as seen in The Pied Piper)
o U.R.T.V.'s past history (as seen in the Episode II)
o Shion's past history with Febronia (removed)
o Jr's rapid growing (removed)
o Both juvenile and grown-up Jr. switching available in the battle (removed)
o The ghost of the old Miltia (removed)
o The death of Sakura (removed)
o Brief reunion with grown-up Citrine (removed)
o Gaignun vs Zohar emulators (removed)
o Jr.'s transformation/overdrive (removed)
o Jr. & Albedo vs U-DO vs KOS-MOS 3rd armament (removed)
o Shion's spiritual seeking/witnessing/awakening (removed)
o The truth about KOS-MOS (removed)
o Conversation between chaos and the red cloak man (removed)
o Conversation between Nephilim and the boy with the blocks (removed)
o An antimatter annihilation of Albedo (removed)
* Removed chapter/events were rejected/deleted subjects. It's highly unlikely to be shown in the future Episode.
* Soraya has no intention of playing for attention. No one has to pay attention to this.
* Soraya has no option to come back. And she knows well the saga no longer needs Saga.

A message from Soraya

Thank you all who sent us heartwarming messages. I loved the Xeno universe and its wonderful fan base, that's what I'll miss the most. Forget about good old days and enjoy whole new saga.

Best wishes."[COLOR=Crimson][I]

(Part 2 below)

[Phoenix_Apollo]

While stuff was put back in Episode III, a good portion was left out, gone forever. But this isn't even the worst part.

I admittedly have a limited understanding of Xenogears Perfect Works, but from what I know, the story goes like this:

Xenogears/saga were suppsoed to be series that spanned six chapters. Most of us know what happened with Square and Monolith and all of that, and, as outlined in Perfect Works, Xenogears was part five, while Xenosaga was a reimagining of the early chapters. However, Chapter 1 was turned into the prologue of Episode I, with the rest of the series actually being Chapter 2, extended, beaten, and stretched until it tore to pieces, undoubtedly with somethings that were meant for later. The rest of it was skipped, of course, except for the few plot points that had to be retconned into the story.

Essentially what we have here is one chapter of a story combined with a heavily condensed early chapter and a heavily expanded/edited second chapter after the story was drastically rewritten. This, from a series that was supposed to span six games, each telling it's own epic part of the plot.

Honestly, if Xenosaga Episode I had come to us the way it was meant to, (which would have undoubtedly tripled the content of what he have now) I bet it would have been hailed as a masterpiece and an achievement in gaming. It would have been really, really long, yes, but the gameplay would have increased tenfold and the balance probably would have been better for those that had a problem with it. It would have been so massive a game, that Takahashi must have gone through quite a few attacks on his ego when the games kept getting shortened. Really, we've gotten fragments. Mostly good fragments, but still fragments.

My view about Xenosaga was messed up already from that and watching him play. (omg I hated the mech battles...I missed Xenogears kung fu >.<) I personally like most rpgs but I didn't enjoy overhyped ones, (big fan of Wild arms and Star ocean before 3 and 4,) but I thought about giving Xenosaga another shot...maybe. I'm a little annoyed because I had the original copy of Xenogear, twice. Yes the original one as well as the demo game.

Is the DS lite version that bad?

The mech battles are the worst part of Episode I, but are also completely optional. Take it how you like, but meh.

The DS version scored something like a 28 from Famitsu, so it wasn't that bad I guess. I'll probably never know since it'll never come over here and the amount of Japanese it must take to learn to understand it fully is undoubtedly, astoundingly frightening to a non-native speaker.

However, we were talking about Xenosaga: The Animation, an anime adaption of Episodes I and a little of II. Not as good as the games themselves, of course.

You are both wrong. XG and XS are not parts of the same story.

It is true that there are some similarities between the two, but in the end the two story lines and plot points are fundamentally different.

Both true and untrue. While they're different works with plenty of similarities, they're also based off of the same source material (as outlined in Perfect Works). Saga is more or less a drastic rewrite of Xenogears, which then got hacked to death by the development team especially after but also during Episode I. Probably enough to avoid being sued by Square Enix and then a little more.

They said they were catering to the fans with 2

More like catering to the fans, trying to appeal to mainstream gamers, and trying to entice more casual gamers all in one go. The quality of the storytelling, changes in virtually everything (most notably, the removal of money/shops and a database) reflects this. They simply tried too much of the wrong things instead of letting it go as it was supposed to go. This is both Namco and Monolith's fault, since they obviously both had a hand in it.

The formula of Episode I drastically needed rebalancing, but it didn't require a complete overhaul of the combat system (for the worse) and a failure to utilize the imperatives of a non-random combat structure (what's the point of showing enemies on the field if you can't avoid them?).

All that was really necessary was to spread out the story sections more evenly and incorporate them more into the gameplay so it doesn't feel so much like we're alternating between playing a game and watching a movie. Also, actually explaining the nuances of Episode I's deep combat and stat systems would've been much appreciated: there were more than a few players who got lost.


I personally disagree about Episode I's need for rebalancing, but I also think it was due to them fragmenting the actual story. If we had gotten The whole chapter, which pretty much spans the entire series as we know it (aside from the little part in Xenosaga Freaks, I think, but even then...) wouldn't have then been more balanced? Because it seems like what was happening before Episode I got cut during development, causing the developement of both Episode II, Pied Piper, and Episode III for the parts they didn't already cover. It probably would have worked out better that way.

Also, for those curious, there is an analysis into some of the things in the series that were only mentioned but never expanded upon. Kind of like a Perfect Works (but I think is different than the one Kenji's link had) like Xenogears. Luckily, thereis a translation of it. (http://translations.xenotensei.com/Xeno3/PerfectGuide.html) Spoilers, of course, but it's definitely interesting, considering it's expanded lore.

I don't think that is a big deal in the jrpg industry. Remaking a game that another company owns the rights to is kind of unlikely though.


Normally, I might agree with you, but since Monolith's whole original existence was to remake the Xeno series since Square screwed them over, I think Saga really is a 2.0 of Gears. It would make sense, in that light. Since Square still owns Gears, a drastic rewrite was needed before it could have been made into Saga. That only makes sense. Especially since Takahashi and Soraya Saga wrote both, Episode I and Gears were both produced by Hirohide, and the bunches of similarities. It was all intentional, because it was supposed to be a retelling. Kind of like a story that gets told through word of mouth, or gossip even. Each time it's told, elements change that make it different than what actually happened or how it was originally told. I believe a similar process was done with Gears and Saga, but retold by the same people, more or less.

Saga isn't Gears in the fact that they aren't in the same contiunity, but they're both the same story, told differently. Obviously, The Episode V of Saga would have been different than Gears, but it might have shadowed some of it's plot points. We'll never know though.

And I really hope either Saga or Gears gets a reboot, especially since Nintendo thinks the Xeno brand is popular enough to rename Monado to Xenoblade. Either series undoubtedly deserves it.

[Flußkönig]

I was a member over at Zenosaga.com and the short lived Ethos relaunch (both were great resources) when they were still around. I remember when Soraya posted that list on her blog. Many of the members thought that was the death knell for the series, but at the time I believed that most of that was going to end up being in XS III and that she just hadn't realized that the first episode had been split into two parts.

While I think Takahashi's original intent with XS was to tell a story as close to XG as possible the end product did not meet that goal. Honestly I think it diverged farther and farther from the source material as the series progressed to the point where XS III ending was not even close substantively.

As for what you said about Xenoblade, I think it was great that Takahashi actually managed to release a finished game. If he keeps it up maybe someday a company will actually trust him enough to fund a definitive take on the Xeno series.

[DarkRPGMaster]

I love you Phoenix, you know that?

[Phoenix_Apollo]

I was a member over at Zenosaga.com and the short lived Ethos relaunch (both were great resources) when they were still around. I remember when Soraya posted that list on her blog. Many of the members thought that was the death knell for the series, but at the time I believed that most of that was going to end up being in XS III and that she just hadn't realized that the first episode had been split into two parts.

While I think Takahashi's original intent with XS was to tell a story as close to XG as possible the end product did not meet that goal. Honestly I think it diverged farther and farther from the source material as the series progressed to the point where XS III ending was not even close substantively.

As for what you said about Xenoblade, I think it was great that Takahashi actually managed to release a finished game. If he keeps it up maybe someday a company will actually trust him enough to fund a definitive take on the Xeno series.

I always had the impression that, while the scenarios were drastically changed, they still retained bits and pieces from the original script. Like, the concept of what was going on remained, but was rewritten for Episode II on. So, while it had the plot points, they were presented radically differently, especially with Episode III, since even Soraya didn't even know where it was going at that point. This is why I equated it to a product of the cutting room floor. Since they couldn't finish the series properly, they took the plot points not wrapped up or presented in Episode II and presented them with their answers in Episode III. Had the plot played out as it should have, what we saw in that game would be more spread out and less compressed. That's what I think at least. The plot points from Perfect Works were still there, but they just were presented differently because of the premature end, not nessecarily that there was a great influx of new content. At the very least, the T-elos stuff was bound to happen, since it was foreshadowed in Episode I, but likely not how it was presented to us.

And, didn't Takahashi finish Soma Bringer, too? Or was that another game plagued with development hell? I just hope that both games were more or less finished at least, because if they turned out to have similar problems, it would pretty much be another Tim Schafer thing, and that would be really sad.

[Flußkönig]

I believe Soma Bringer was finished and pretty good overall, but since I knew it wasn't going to come out here I never really payed that much attention.

The plot points from Perfect Works were still there, but they just were presented differently because of the premature end, not nessecarily that there was a great influx of new content.

No, I honestly don't think that is the case. The two story lines had changed to much between the end of XS and the applicable section of perfect works. If you want to find some way to connect Deus going out of control with the gnosis phenomenon, the Eldridge's destruction with Abel's Ark or any of the other plot points that I just don't think are reconcilable then go ahead, but I think it is way to much of a stretch.

At some point the 'connections' between the plot points are so tenuous that you might as well just pick any two random events and just start making up stuff.

[Phoenix_Apollo]

Eh, touche on that one. I guess I like thinking that it was all part of the overarching narrative than just new stuff added in as time went on. I kinda hope it's a little of both. I mean, Deus going out of control can be conceptually related to Zarathustra going out of control but, meh. You got me there.

Also, you knew Soma Bringer wasn't going to come out here? Why's that? I was kinda hoping to play it some day.

[Flußkönig]

Nintendo basically owns Monolithsoft and was the company that published Soma Bringer in Jp. If someone was going to bring the game over here it would be Nintendo and that company hasn't shown any interest.

There is also the fact that it has been two and a half years since Soma Bringer was released in Jp. Imo if it was going to get localized it would have been or at the very least there would have been some word on it coming over.

[Karkarov]

I will only say real fast, no I am right, the original intent was to retell the entire story which took 6 parts. After the first game didn't meet expectations they decided to mix it up, when the second game bombed (and it did from a profit standpoint), they threw all their plans basically out the window and just did what had to be done to wrap it up.

This means the story got simplified, parts of it were flat axed, and entire major segment got skipped, and they had to abandon the long term plans to retell the story as originally intended.

Also Abel is... uh Fei from Xenogears. The ghost girl (sorry her name escapes me right now and don't feel like looking it up) is Elly. The connection is blatant. Was the telling for the story going to be different? Yes. But was it going to be a similar story and was it originally planned to have the same number of parts.... yes.

Is Xenogears still better? Still yes.

[DarkRPGMaster]

Nephilim. Her name is Nephilim. And yes, Xenogears is better than Xenosaga...except for the 2nd disc before the final dungeon. That was utter crap. I would have LOVED to see how the world changed before we were forced to go to all those places.

[Flußkönig]

Also Abel is... uh Fei from Xenogears. The ghost girl (sorry her name escapes me right now and don't feel like looking it up) is Elly. The connection is blatant. Was the telling for the story going to be different? Yes. But was it going to be a similar story and was it originally planned to have the same number of parts.... yes.

Well, you can bring up plenty of ways in which the two series are connected, but if you actually examine those connections you will see that the context (the way the plot points are used) is completely different.

Yes the two series share certain points along a similar time lines, but as I already mentioned the way those points were used was completely different. Many vital parts of XG's storyline or anything even remotely similar never occurred in XS. This would seem to point to the fact that the two stories would not end up being similar.

The fact that Takahashi originally intended to tell XG's complete story with XS is true, but that fact is irrelevant due to events not working out as he intended. The Xenosaga series as released was not Xenogears. I don't think it would even be all that close considering how far XS ended up diverging from the source.

[Kain Mare]

I own and played Xenogears all the way through. I thought the second half of the disc was insanely rushed. Good story and good characters through and through.

I played through all three Xenosaga games and I did enjoy playing them. I enjoyed the cinematic, gameplay, visuals and character development. I'm just sad that this wasn't expanded upon to the 6-game series Monolith Soft originally intended. Something about the sales of 2 bombing, thus rushing 3.

Unfortunately, I don't have a Wii. I won't be able to play Xenoblade when it does come over here. ): But it looks good, and I know I would enjoy it.

[Phoenix_Apollo]

Nintendo basically owns Monolithsoft and was the company that published Soma Bringer in Jp. If someone was going to bring the game over here it would be Nintendo and that company hasn't shown any interest.

There is also the fact that it has been two and a half years since Soma Bringer was released in Jp. Imo if it was going to get localized it would have been or at the very least there would have been some word on it coming over.

I do see what you mean with that. I really don't get Nintendo's own fear of publishing Monolith Soft games, especially since they do mostly own the company (I do think Namco owns a little of it). It'd be like if we stopped getting games from another big studio of Nintendo's for no reason at all. I mean, they've skipped Xenosaga I&II, Soma Bringer, Super Robot Taisen OG Saga: Endless Frontier EXCEED and Disaster: Day of Crisis while we've gotten the first Super Robot Taisen OG Saga: Endless Frontier through Atlus and that Dragon Ball Z RPG through Namdai. Why do they bother even owning the company if they're not going to give overseas fans the games?

I desperately hope this changes with Xenoblade, and if it does, I hope it spells good news for any future game and a couple of their past ones too.

[Kenji]

The formula of Episode I drastically needed rebalancing, but it didn't require a complete overhaul of the combat system (for the worse) and a failure to utilize the imperatives of a non-random combat structure (what's the point of showing enemies on the field if you can't avoid them?).

All that was really necessary was to spread out the story sections more evenly and incorporate them more into the gameplay so it doesn't feel so much like we're alternating between playing a game and watching a movie. Also, actually explaining the nuances of Episode I's deep combat and stat systems would've been much appreciated: there were more than a few players who got lost.


I personally disagree about Episode I's need for rebalancing, but I also think it was due to them fragmenting the actual story. If we had gotten The whole chapter, which pretty much spans the entire series as we know it (aside from the little part in Xenosaga Freaks, I think, but even then...) wouldn't have then been more balanced? Because it seems like what was happening before Episode I got cut during development, causing the developement of both Episode II, Pied Piper, and Episode III for the parts they didn't already cover. It probably would have worked out better that way.
I'll explain my thoughts in a bit, because it's more than just the gameplay-to-movie ratio. That, in itself, is incidental.

The biggest fault in Xenosaga, JRPGs, and a whole slew of other games, is that the separation between story and gameplay is enormous. When I say that Episode I needed rebalancing, part of it is because it feels like I'm watching a really interesting sci-fi movie... but I evidently have such bad ADD that I keep pausing to play the game-based-on-the-movie.

This is Episode I's problem: Its gameplay sections, aside from sharing the characters and some of the locations of the movie sections, have absolutely nothing to do with the story. If it weren't packed in the same DVD, it'd be just like the SNES-era movie-based games.

The separation is so bad that I, the player, am not even allowed to participate in the more interesting combat sequences. Instead, I have to make do with incidental Gnosis that are often completely inconsequential (Gargoyle is the sole exception). At least they throw me a bone and let me fight Albedo twice, though even that is hardly necessary and even slightly out-of-character (Albedo seems much more interested in taunting Rubedo than actually throwing down with him; in fact, letting Rubedo attack while he does nothing but taunt seems more effective, so he seems much more likely to do that).

Now, at least Episode I's game-based-on-the-movie is quality stuff. Unfortunately, it's an absolutely terrible example of what gaming can bring to storytelling. Instead, it's a movie with a barely-related game attached to it. Not a step in the right direction, at all.

That said, it could be worse. At least the player's actions in gameplay aren't wholly unrelated to characterization or the plot. As a counterexample, let's look at Final Fantasy VII.

Before the game degenerates into "Chasing the Black-Caped Metrosexual," it was about a group of eco-terrorists striving to punish a global energy corporation, willfully ignorant of the good it has also done. A better storyteller could've spun a mature and infinitely more intelligent and satisfying tale on that, without having to resort to the aforementioned Metrosexual of Wealth and Taste, but that's beside the point.

Here's what I'm getting at: The player's party is made up of eco-terrorists (and outspoken environmentalists), former employees of Shin-Ra who hang out with eco-terrorists, and one plucky/irritating thinly-veiled reference to postwar Japan. Yet, no sooner do they leave Midgar's walls than they start slaughtering every last animal unlucky enough to cross their path.

Notice the contradiction? It's alright if you didn't, before: I didn't until I actually sat down and thought about it, tonight. Evidently, very few others have because this flagrant hypocrisy (on the part of the cast) never seems to come up in conversation about the most famous JRPG in the world.

In contrast, one of the things I appreciate about the God of War series is that there's absolutely zero separation between the Kratos who rants so selfishly and belligerently in the movie sequences and the Kratos that brutally eviscerates innocent bystanders in the game. They are undoubtedly the same man and the gameplay, if nothing else, reinforces his characterization. Additionally, we get to participate directly in his most triumphant/damnable moments.

DarkRPGMaster has expressed a common misconception that I've heard many times before: That a complex and intellectual story in a video game can only be told through non-interactive cutscenes that simultaneously rob the game of its justification for existing (as a game and not a movie or television show). Integrating the story further into the gameplay, making the gameplay match the themes and characterizations in the story, and making the player participate in the story through novel gameplay concepts can only be a good thing. It can only draw them further into the narrative and justify the existence of the story in game form.

This is what I mean by "rebalancing Episode I's formula."

[Phoenix_Apollo]

I see what you mean with that. The fact that the game has all of these cutscenes that show all of these awesome things, but has gameplay that's decidedly more generic and less awesome is quite bothersome. But I don't know how it could have been fixed fully. More variations in the battle system (Elsa combat for example) would have been nice, less of a seperation between the in-game engine cutscenes and the FMV ones would have been fantastic. However, I, personally, am not a fan of fully interactive cutscenes, like ones seen in Half-Life or most Western RPGs like KOTOR or Elder Scrolls. I find those type of scenes distracting and as a result don't immerse me in the story as much.

I much rather have a story and a game that is not afraid to take control from the player and show them the amazing vistas and the amazing scenes. I would like to participate in some of them, like how Final Fantasy X let you battle bosses that actually made a difference to the story, but I would also like to take the time to pause and see the pretty images play. A large part of this is why I liked Xenosaga, it let me lay back and get interested in the story and wasn't hyper-interactive in doing so. It was quite a nice break from most other games that had interactive cutscenes where you had to have your hands on the buttons, whether its to press X or go through some QTEs.

Basically, I liked it because it was a good counterpart to the cutscenes of Shenmue, which also had gameplay that actually fit in with the story. If Xenosaga had more gameplay that mattered, it would undoubtedly be more praised. If people felt like the gameplay fit the plot, I don't think the cutscenes themselves would have garnered so much criticism This is the only general problem I have with Episode I, aside from the conspicously bad lip flapping. But, it didn't make me enjoy the game much less.

[Kenji]

It was quite a nice break from most other games that had interactive cutscenes where you had to have your hands on the buttons, whether its to press X or go through some QTEs.
Of course, we are entering a realm of personal taste, but I'd like to make clear that the current industry fascination with QTEs is absolutely not what I mean by interactive storytelling.

To begin with, nothing pulls you out of immersion like suddenly being prompted to "press X not to die." It's actually more jarringly non-immersive than a completely noninteractive cutscene.

Secondly, it's a piss-poor concession. Ignoring the button prompts, the cutscenes they're featured in are every bit as noninteractive as they would've been without them. It's like attaching a NOT gate to the Stop button on your DVD player's remote. It's an unimaginative solution to a game design problem that's getting more noticed by the year.

I see what you mean with that. The fact that the game has all of these cutscenes that show all of these awesome things, but has gameplay that's decidedly more generic and less awesome is quite bothersome. But I don't know how it could have been fixed fully. More variations in the battle system (Elsa combat for example) would have been nice, less of a seperation between the in-game engine cutscenes and the FMV ones would have been fantastic. However, I, personally, am not a fan of fully interactive cutscenes, like ones seen in Half-Life or most Western RPGs like KOTOR or Elder Scrolls. I find those type of scenes distracting and as a result don't immerse me in the story as much.
Frankly, it's a deep problem of game design. In order to more closely marry gameplay and story, one has to be molded with the other in mind (gameplay to story, though it doesn't necessarily have to be that way).

For example, let's look at Final Fantasy X. The only connection the gameplay has to the story (aside from common characters and setting) is that Aeons are featured in the combat system and, under certain player-imposed conditions (like a No Sphere Grid game), can be very powerful relative to the player characters... and that's about it.

If Yuna's death led to an instant Game Over and she had to be on the field, like the average MegaTen protagonist, that alone would bring the gameplay closer to the story. Ar Tonelico 2, for all of its flaws, does a much better job of reinforcing the importance of its Reyvateil characters, who are similar in their high power and need for protection, via gameplay.

The problem, I think, is that oftentimes the gameplay and story are developed separately and then mashed together. Cinematics become glorified checkpoints at physical locations in the game and have about as much to do with the gameplay.

Why the hell is the cowardly Hope Estheim whipping out a boomerang and taking on giant, presumably flesh-eating monsters?

However, the marriage between gameplay and story can go much further than Ar Tonelico 2. Without diving into the realm of indie games, I'm going to give two mainstream examples of games pointing in the right direction. Whether one personally likes them or not is irrelevant to what they contribute to making the video game a unique storytelling device with useful attributes.

Shadow of the Colossus
It's easy to forget now, but a game world that was easily three times the size of the largest incarnation of Hyrule, yet only featured fifteen enemies, was a ballsy design choice. Any other designer would've either shrank the size and scope of the valley or (more likely) populated it with all manner of throwaway baddies to keep the player from getting bored.

Nobody would've complained if the shadow creatures from Ico had been crawling all over the place. Hell, more than a few would've preferred it if the game had been designed that way.

However, the game world being completely empty aside from the colossi lent a unique atmosphere to the whole experience that served the story and its themes. To shrink the valley or add enemies would've completely destroyed this atmosphere and the implicit stories the ruined cities had to tell.

Though the story in Shadow of the Colossus isn't exactly the longest or most expansive story told in video gaming, I rank it as one of the absolute best because of its depth and the manner in which the gameplay serves the story in a manner that no cutscene could've.

Let's take, for example, the moral ambiguity of the Wanderer's quest. No amount of self-indulgent cutscenes showing the Wanderer melodramatically bitching about the moral quandary of killing the colossi, and unsubtly trying to convince us of the humanity of his plight, could possibly compare to that creeping feeling the player gets, while fighting the fifth to seventh colossus, that they might just be doing something monstrously and unforgivably wrong.

While Shadow of the Colossus features cutscenes that set the scene, map progress, and deliver the ending, the lion's share of the story is told through the act of playing. The unstoppable passion of the Wanderer, the desperation of the colossi, the accompanying moral decay, all of these are expressed not only without words, but explicitly through the player's actions in fulfilling the objective.

That is what makes this game so brilliant and why it should be the cornerstone to a whole school of thought in telling a story through gaming.

Silent Hill: Shattered Memories
While decidedly more traditional, Shattered Memories is a great example of a game that was designed in service of the story from the ground up.

The decision to abandon combat was twofold. First, it was hoped that doing so would create an atmosphere of primal fear by emulating the nature of a nightmare. Second, it served certain important themes of the story that describing would spoil.

The manner in which cutscenes were approached is a combination of traditional and modern methods. The cutscenes were set and couldn't be (awkwardly) walked away from, but the player could decide where his eyes would be pointed at. Additionally, data from where the eyes were focusing, as well as where the player decided to look during gameplay, was compiled in determining Harry's personality and, ultimately, the ending.

Again, whether one considers these games good or not is immaterial: The point is that these games were both designed to promote their stories, so the separation between them is minimal. Clever game designers should be capable of figuring out ways to marry them even closer together, ways that haven't been imagined yet.

I think this is what's necessary to give gaming that final push to being a legitimate art form.

[Phoenix_Apollo]

That is a fair and spot on analysis. I've found myself agreeing completely with you. Another game, actually most of the series, I can also point out is Fire Emblem. While it's story and battle are somewhat separated (though somewhat blended better in the 2D ones, due to it being 2D) the fact that losing a character means death for the character is quite a powerful thing. Most people that I know that play it, including myself, can't stand having anyone die, both because it's sad and because they could be useful later on. The fact that if one of the Lords die, it's instant game over helps with this too.

[Karkarov]

Stuff stuff stuff....

Again, whether one considers these games good or not is immaterial: The point is that these games were both designed to promote their stories, so the separation between them is minimal. Clever game designers should be capable of figuring out ways to marry them even closer together, ways that haven't been imagined yet.

You should try Demon's Souls. It is a much more recent title that does all the things you are talking about, including making the player wonder if he really is doing the "right thing" at certain points. The ending you get even comes down to a very simple gameplay choice in the final moments.

[Kenji]

You should try Demon's Souls. It is a much more recent title that does all the things you are talking about, including making the player wonder if he really is doing the "right thing" at certain points. The ending you get even comes down to a very simple gameplay choice in the final moments.
I got Demon's Souls on release day. Haven't beaten it yet, but I absolutely adore that game. Top-notch atmosphere, story-based game mechanics, and the most real-feeling combat I've ever experienced in a game.

I didn't mention it, partly because I didn't beat it and partly because it slipped my mind, but it does deserve mention.

[bluekamikaze]

The thing i think is funny about all of this is nintendo and monolith both act like the xeno games are dead here in the us but here we all are years later still talking about xenosaga.
i personally think it is great i loved xenogears and the xenosaga had it problems still i thought i was great i hope the they do bring over xenoblade but nintendo doesnt seem to want to bring over any of the good rpgs and things for the wii to the us or it seems like it anyways..

[sabaku_lotus]

whoa Nyx you just taught me stuff I never knew about squaresoft...but it's still on my bottom tier on companies that are meh to me.

I think I'm just bitter over all the non imports and system promotions that are japan only, like the chocobox.

I hope this game does come in the states and it doesn't just turn out the same ._.

[Karkarov]

The thing i think is funny about all of this is nintendo and monolith both act like the xeno games are dead here in the us but here we all are years later still talking about xenosaga.
i personally think it is great i loved xenogears and the xenosaga had it problems still i thought i was great i hope the they do bring over xenoblade but nintendo doesnt seem to want to bring over any of the good rpgs and things for the wii to the us or it seems like it anyways..

Yeap, and sony wouldn't import that other game I mentioned to NA either because they were sure it had no US fanbase. I am sure Atlus is still thanking them for that bit of decision making too. A solid Wii RPG would be quite nice and maybe give me a reason to boot the system again. Last Story and Xenoblade fit that bill from what I have seen. Lets just hope they both get the sales figures to prove the fans are there.

[Phoenix_Apollo]

I won't lie that I've thought at length how it would be profitable for Nintendo to bring over Xenosaga. It would make my day, if they finally announced it, just as much as the day they announced the Xenoblade name change (even if it didn't have anything to do with Xenosaga, still, it's Xeno!). It would make me love Nintendo again and not curse them for limiting themselves. They have so much potential if they just marketed the series right, and did TV marketing in general, I think. It has a chance, Nintendo just needs to realize it.

[DarkRPGMaster]

Nintendo needs to realize alot of things, like how Mother 3 (aka Earthbound 2) would sell majorly over here.

[Vyse of Arcadia]

Nintendo needs to realize alot of things, like how Mother 3 (aka Earthbound 2) would sell majorly over here.

Maybe when it first came out. But now? Interest has waned. All of the fans who would have bought the game either imported it like I did or just played the fan translation.

I usually don't count on Nintendo localizing any RPGs.

[Phoenix_Apollo]

Nintendo needs to realize alot of things, like how Mother 3 (aka Earthbound 2) would sell majorly over here.

Maybe when it first came out. But now? Interest has waned. All of the fans who would have bought the game either imported it like I did or just played the fan translation.

I usually don't count on Nintendo localizing any RPGs.

Which made it pointless for them to buy Monolith in the first place. It's like giving overseas gamers the middle finger and then they expect us to still like them.

[Vyse of Arcadia]

Nintendo needs to realize alot of things, like how Mother 3 (aka Earthbound 2) would sell majorly over here.

Maybe when it first came out. But now? Interest has waned. All of the fans who would have bought the game either imported it like I did or just played the fan translation.

I usually don't count on Nintendo localizing any RPGs.

Which made it pointless for them to buy Monolith in the first place. It's like giving overseas gamers the middle finger and then they expect us to still like them.

I dunno where you've been, but most Japanese companies have been giving overseas gamers the finger for decades. It's tradition. Even our beloved Atlus gave us the finger for a number of years (NES,SNES eras.) Or just completely ignored us (also tradition.)

Nintendo bought Monolith for the Japanese RPG market. If a couple of those games just happen to get localized and just happen to make a profit overseas, it's just some extra pocket change for Nintendo.

When was the last time a non-Squeenix, non-Pokemon JRPG actually got significant sales in NA/EU?

[Karkarov]

When was the last time a non-Squeenix, non-Pokemon JRPG actually got significant sales in NA/EU?

That depends on what you consider to be "significant sales"? Most RPG's don't need to sell a million copies to turn a profit and the fact that Atlus USA last year was more profitable than Atlus Japan should send a clear message.

[Raptorg]

I hope Xenoblade will be localized for Europe.

It's been really bad for jRPGs in general in Europe..
Really, nothing even remotely interesting was released.. Other than FFXIII which was decent at best.
Great graphics, but that's all that was "good" about it.
Even though I expect Xenoblade to fail.. At least it looks interesting enough to buy and try.

Man, I'm depressed.

[Vyse of Arcadia]

When was the last time a non-Squeenix, non-Pokemon JRPG actually got significant sales in NA/EU?

That depends on what you consider to be "significant sales"? Most RPG's don't need to sell a million copies to turn a profit and the fact that Atlus USA last year was more profitable than Atlus Japan should send a clear message.

Hm. That was pretty ambiguous on my part. Let's go with, "significant enough to have enough popularity to be worth marketing at the masses with television commercials." Or, more simple, when was the last time you saw a non-Squeenix, non-Pokemon JRPG television commercial?

Send a clear message to who, though? Nintendo certainly isn't listening.

[Phoenix_Apollo]

I apologize. I simply thought that if a company like Nintendo bought up a company, they would be thinking of worldwide sales instead of just where they're headquartered. Especially now when they just need to plug a game to get success for it. But, no. There haven't been many JRPGs that have been given the success that Square and Nintendo get with only some of them, since they don't localize everything. If they just believed in aggressive advertising a little more, they'd have more success. It worked for Dragon Quest IX; it should be able to work on a lot more games.

[sabaku_lotus]

Nintendo needs to realize alot of things, like how Mother 3 (aka Earthbound 2) would sell majorly over here.

Maybe when it first came out. But now? Interest has waned. All of the fans who would have bought the game either imported it like I did or just played the fan translation.

I usually don't count on Nintendo localizing any RPGs.

Which made it pointless for them to buy Monolith in the first place. It's like giving overseas gamers the middle finger and then they expect us to still like them.

I dunno where you've been, but most Japanese companies have been giving overseas gamers the finger for decades. It's tradition. Even our beloved Atlus gave us the finger for a number of years (NES,SNES eras.) Or just completely ignored us (also tradition.)

Nintendo bought Monolith for the Japanese RPG market. If a couple of those games just happen to get localized and just happen to make a profit overseas, it's just some extra pocket change for Nintendo.

When was the last time a non-Squeenix, non-Pokemon JRPG actually got significant sales in NA/EU?

^ THIS THIS OH how I rage at this

Almost all japanese, even the major ones gives us the finger in the USA. Case in point BOF III is in EU but not NA.

EU games are two fold because a lot of EU games came there but not here. But I think it's because a lot of japanese think that most Americans play nothing but shooters and sports ._.; :mad:

[dungeon_man]

Namco has made bad decisions ever since the merger with Bandai, so them screwing with Xenoblade was no big surprise there.
You're implying that Namco has never screwed up before the merger.
I wasn't aware of Namco until Xenosaga Episode 1.

Namco. The company that made Pac-Man. I mean, I can understand not knowing Bandai, but Namco... that's impressive. Surely you'd at least heard the name? Or you're just talking about Namco in the context of RPGs?Namco
In the context of RPGs. I never played a Tales game until after the merger (that was when I first got Tales of Legendia).

Yeah, nice save, Darkie.

Anyway, Namco and RPGs.... If I'm not mistaken, the two Megami Tensei games for NES were from Namco. Then some of the developers of those games left Namco to form Atlus and created Shin Megami Tensei. Of course, it's understandable to not know that. Most of Namco's RPGs didn't get US releases until recently.

As to all of the Xeno debating, haven't they basically said that the games aren't intended to have any story continuity between franchises?

[Foobar]

I mean, intentionally sequelized books come out all of the time and usually get the sequels they're supposed to get. Why can't video games just have a case of that once? That's what bugs me the most.

I think the saying "Don't put all of your eggs in one basket," applies in the case of Xenogears/saga, Advent Rising and Shenmue. Its better practice to make a self-contained game with a few potential openings in it.

Making an epic is a bit too complicated for the medium. They're easier to write than they are to realize. Its more challenging to work out sequels and prequel stories, but easier to realize them.

I never really imagined Nintendo would try to wedge another story between Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion, but Fusion created an additional piece of history that made that opportunity possible.

[DarkRPGMaster]

Oh I loved Fusion's story. And the SA-X appearing out of nowhere to chase you or attack you was always terrifying.

[Phoenix_Apollo]

I mean, intentionally sequelized books come out all of the time and usually get the sequels they're supposed to get. Why can't video games just have a case of that once? That's what bugs me the most.

I think the saying "Don't put all of your eggs in one basket," applies in the case of Xenogears/saga, Advent Rising and Shenmue. Its better practice to make a self-contained game with a few potential openings in it.

Making an epic is a bit too complicated for the medium. They're easier to write than they are to realize. Its more challenging to work out sequels and prequel stories, but easier to realize them.

I never really imagined Nintendo would try to wedge another story between Super Metroid and Metroid Fusion, but Fusion created an additional piece of history that made that opportunity possible.

But then it seems like it's just going the route of "Oh hey our game was popular. Let's make a sequel!" which I've never been a fan of.

I know, I know, "It's business! They want to capitalize on the brand!" etc. It's my opinion that if you're going to do a standalone game, you make it complete. Not holding back for any potential sequels, because that's just wrong to do to the gamers eagerly playing it. If you want to make a bunch of sequels, leave it to serialized series like Saga/Gears, Shenmue, etc. It's more enriching wondering what the hell the developers are going to do next instead of "are they going to make a sequel to this next? Because I hope so..." It just makes the anticipation even more unbearable. Also, it makes accidental retcons even harder, since it's a narrative that was written at once (and then translated into games) instead of a narrative that just got added onto.

[Karkarov]

You guys really don't understand how much tv advertisements cost. Like I said in another thread somewhere. ME2's (and for that matter FFXIII's) US advertising budgets were probably greater than the entire cost of Atlus USA releasing Demon's Souls in NA. Unless your game is going to sell over a million copies 100% lock it really is too expensive to do it.

PS Vyse if I take the word JRPG out of your sentence and add the words Bioware and Blizzard it becomes true for all RPG's.