Tokimeki Memorial 4

[Devil in the Details]

It's a pipedream and extreme long shot, but I figure it can't hurt to ask...

Tokimeki Memorial 4 by Konami was recently released on PSP, to resounding acclaim for keeping true to the Tokimeki tradition (unlike the debacle of number three). Sure it's a "dating game" and all that: but it's one of the standards upon which other dating games are rated on.

Great character building stories with adorable young ladies who are willful and independent thinking (not lifeless dolls who do anything a man tells them to). If the age thing is problem – though I can't see how, considering nothing objectionable happens – just make them college students. Badda-bing Badda-boom.

Has tons of mini-games, so it's not just about monotonous dating. There's strategy involved if you want to get the best ending (gotta avoid bombs, bombs, and more bombs). Also hidden secrets with special events and hidden girls. Bound to be an anime and manga adaption down the road, so bonus on that end for greater exposure. Tokimeki Memorial also has a fanbase in the English speaking world, whom I'm sure would help spread the word (and thus push their friends to make sales).

Yea... I know about the monumental failure of Brooktown High... but that title failed because it WASN'T a Tokimeki Memorial 4, and represents exactly what these types of games shouldn't have been. As a hardcore Tokimeki Memorial fan, even I couldn't lie to myself and get others to buy it for the Greater Good of B-gaming...

[Enzeru]

There was another Tokimeki Memorial thread before, and as much as I'd kill for this to be brought over, there's no way it will be.

[AdrianMorales]

There was another Tokimeki Memorial thread before, and as much as I'd kill for this to be brought over, there's no way it will be.

With so many of them I wouldn't be surprised:

Main series

• Tokimeki Memorial (1994) — PC Engine
o Tokimeki Memorial: Densetsu no Ki no ####a de (1996) — Super Famicom
o Tokimeki Memorial: Forever With You (1995) — PlayStation
o Tokimeki Memorial: Forever With You (1996) — Sega Saturn
o Tokimeki Memorial (1997) — PC
o Tokimeki Memorial Sports Version: Kotei no Photograph (1999) — Game Boy Color
o Tokimeki Memorial Culture Version: Komorebi no Melody (1999) — Game Boy Color
o Tokimeki Memorial (2004) — mobile phones
o Tokimeki Memorial: Forever With You (2006) — PlayStation Portable
• Tokimeki Memorial 2 (1999) — PlayStation
o Tokimeki Memorial 2 (2007) — mobile phones
• Tokimeki Memorial 3: Yakusoku no Ano Basho de (2001) — PlayStation 2
• Tokimeki Memorial Online (2006) — PC
• Tokimeki Memorial 4 (2009) — PSP
o Tokimeki Memorial 4 Mobile (2009) — mobile phones

Girl's Side

• Tokimeki Memorial Girl's Side (2002) — PlayStation 2
o Tokimeki Memorial Girl's Side: 1st Love (2007) — Nintendo DS
o Tokimeki Memorial Girl's Side: 1st Love Plus (2009) — Nintendo DSi
• Tokimeki Memorial Girl's Side: 2nd Kiss (2006) — PlayStation 2
o Tokimeki Memorial Girl's Side: 2nd Season (2008 ) — Nintendo DS

Spin-offs

• Tokimeki Memorial Private Collection (1996) — PlayStation
• Tokimeki Memorial Oshiete Your Heart - Arcade
• Tokimeki Memorial Taisen Puzzle Dama (1996) — Arcade, PC, PlayStation, Sega Saturn
• Tokimeki no Hōkago (1998 ) — PlayStation
• Tokimeki Memorial Taisen Tokkae Dama (1997) — PlayStation, Sega Saturn
• Tokimeki Memorial Selection: Fujisaki Shiori (1997) — PlayStation, Sega Saturn
• Tokimeki Memorial Drama Series Vol. 1: Nijiiro no Seishun (1997) — PlayStation, Sega Saturn
• Tokimeki Memorial Drama Series Vol. 2: Irodori no Love Song (1998 ) — PlayStation,Sega Saturn
• Tokimeki Memorial Drama Series Vol. 3: Tabidachi no Uta (1999) — PlayStation, Sega Saturn
• Tokimeki Memorial 2 Substories: Dancing Summer Vacation (2000) — PlayStation
• Tokimeki Memorial 2 Substories Vol. 2: Leaping School Festival (2001) — PlayStation
• Tokimeki Memorial 2 Substories Vol. 3: Memories Ringing On (2001) — PlayStation
• Tokimeki Memorial 2 Taisen Puzzle Dama (2001) — PlayStation
• Tokimeki Memorial 2: Music Video Clips — Circus de Ai Imashō (2002) — PlayStation 2


Has any of these titles ever been localised?

[Vyse of Arcadia]

Tokimeki Memorial always reminds me of that one episode of Excel Saga. The one that makes fun of dating games and romance anime.

I don't know if I'd buy it, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised if it was localized. It does have a large fanbase in the US. Someone's going to pick it up sooner or later.

[Devil in the Details]

I can only hope that perhaps Konami will cave in and release it themselves, or perhaps a third party company like Atlus or NIS could somehow negotiate an arrangement to release it. Both unlikely scenarios, given the past track record, but it doesn't hurt to ask and pray. :)

There was another Tokimeki Memorial thread before, and as much as I'd kill for this to be brought over, there's no way it will be.

With so many of them I wouldn't be surprised:

*SNIP*

Has any of these titles ever been localised?

None. Not a one.

However in a lot of ways I'm not surprised about it. When those TM titles were originally released, the acceptance level for such a game was incredibly low compared to today. Gamers are a lot more "worldly" these days, allowing niche titles to thrive. Also the majority of them are just half-baked ports or hardcore fan add-ons. TM4 is the first actual "full game" in almost a decade. It doesn't require knowledge or experience with any of the earlier releases, and has graphics and gameplay suited for the modern game audience.

A good story is always a good story, but it's totally understandable why no one would want to port Tokimeki Memorial: Forever With You, given how it looks and sounds. With TM4, the only apprehension would be the format itself – that it's a romance simulation. However unlike Princess Maker 4 & 5, I personally believe it would not be seen as "creepy" to the mainstream casual gamer (at least, not on the level PM would be).

I still hold a small shred of hope, because Konami took the time to make an official English transation of a press release about TM4: http://www.konami.jp/topics/2009/0924/index-e.html

I keep telling myself that maybe it's a sign they'd be interested in a port, if perhaps investors or a company asked them about it.

[Fuyukaze]

Asking Atlus to release Tokimeki is just too cruel. It's like a small child asking their parent for a pet for Christmas and getting one only to find their parents got them a pet rock. Closest you'll ever get to it is importing it. One day, dating sims will see a market here. By then I realy will be too old to play them without creeping myself out. 50 year olds who play high school datings sims. If that doesnt send a shiver down your spine, nothing will.

Also, Sakura Wars was a long running series that no one expected to be released. NIS is releasing it though. Long after the best of the series is buried and dead, but it's getting a n/a release reguardless. Best thing to do is support it. Let people know about it and why they should be playing it. Basicly, put your money where your mouth is.

[cj iwakura]

It's possible, however slight, that Konami USA could do a release via PSN.

This is one of the positives of digital distribution: games that otherwise had no chance suddenly do.

[dorkatlarge]

As far as I know, Atlus and Konami haven't previously worked to translate or publish any games.

Konami doesn't really know what to do with its niche content:

1) It first published the somewhat eccentric game Pop'n Music in Japan in 1998. No English equivalent existed until Beat'n Groovy in 2008 -- and that got poor reviews (29 on Metacritic). Not long ago, there was a Wii edition of Pop'n Music with quite different music, and its reviews thus far aren't good.

2) Guitarfreaks was also first published in Japan in 1998. According to the Dueling Games entry on the TVTropes entertainment wiki, "Bemani is dead in America because Konami decided too soon that Americans wouldn't like rhythm games; Red Octane and EA simply filled the niche and ran away with pockets bulging with cash." (Yes, there are still Guitarfreaks and Bemani fans, and the games are still being published in Japan... but Konami's 2008 game Rock Revolution went to the bargain bin quickly.)

3) Tokimemo has existed since 1994, but Konami didn't publish any English equivalent until Brooktown High in 2007. And it was only thematically similar.

Devil in the Details stated that Brooktown was a "monumental failure." Did you mean in sales? Because even though I purchased the game just a few days after its release, I don't recall *ever* seeing it again on any store shelves. (It really should've been on more than one console.) If you meant in terms of reviews, those were mixed. If you meant that you didn't like the art style or the Urbz-esque gameplay, then I kinda agree -- those didn't appeal to me.

One Tokimeki Memorial inspired game has already been created by English speaking fans. "Summer Session" is an indie game, available for PC/Mac for $20. I enjoyed its free demo, so later on this year I'll finally purchase it. Meanwhile, there's other fans making their own Tokimemo style games: "Shira Oka" is a dating simulation set in Japan that's been in development for years, and "Lucky Rabbit Reflex" is a rather British style dating sim that reflects the creator's familiarity with the Tokimeki Memorial Girl's Side games.

It's possible, however slight, that Konami USA could do a release via PSN.

This is one of the positives of digital distribution: games that otherwise had no chance suddenly do.

I'll grant you that. Some games which only appeal to a niche English speaking audience have failed when they were released on PSP in a UMD format. I'm thinking specifically about Pangya. (See this article from IGN about games that didn't sell in summer 2009: http://games.ign.com/articles/101/1015167p1.html ) I wonder if Holy Invasion of Privacy sold on PSN...

[Fuyukaze]

Reading that list makes me sad. You know your realy out of touch with popular gaming when the list of least bought games of 09 reads like your top gaming list of 09. Damnit, Pangya was a great game. Devil survivor was great. Knights in the nightmare was extremly great. So many incredable games on that list and yet everyone wants to talk about the next sports title or FPS game. I will never understand popular trends I guess.

Oh, and I still support a tokimeki release. Dont see it selling though if a game like Pangya can only pull 5000 or so.....

[Enzeru]

Wow, I can't believe Pangya only sold 5,000 copies...O.O I will cherish mine forever.

[Devil in the Details]

Was on gamefaqs and saw this thread there

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=974887&topic=53037663

Quoting the letter part here for convenience.

Full Name
Your Address Line 1
Your Address Line 2

January 11, 2010

Konami Digital Entertainment, Inc.
2381 Rosecrans Ave, Suite 200
El Segundo, CA 90245

Dear Konami:

In December of 2009, the long awaited fourth entry to the critically acclaimed Tokimeki Memorial series was released for Sony PSP in Japan. The standard upon which other simulations of its kind are judged against, the Tokimeki Memorial name enjoys an august status in the gaming community, identifiable by casual and hardcore gamers alike. Yet for fifteen years the celebrated Tokimeki Memorial lineage has been systematically passed for localization and marketing onto Western shores. I ask for an end to this grievous mistake: please localize Tokimeki Memorial 4 into English.

It has been argued that media such as Tokimeki Memorial 4 are fated for inevitable failure in the Western market. Indeed Konami once tried exploring these very same waters with Brooktown High in 2007, which suffered hardships during development and dismal commercial reception. Let me refute these claims with a single statement of fact: Brooktown High is as far from Tokimeki Memorial 4, as Snake's Revenge is to Metal Gear 4: Guns of the Patriots. Tokimeki Memorial 4 embodies everything that brought success to the genre it helped establish (and everything the former regrettably lacked): enriching storylines, captivating characters, traditional anime artwork, commanding voice acting, strategic game play, hidden secrets, worthwhile replay value, and the even legendary Konami Code.

Despite the unfortunate situation of being devoid an English release, the entirety of Tokimeki Memorial enjoys a devout following in the West. Prior to its release, Tokimeki Memorial 4 enjoyed prominent advertising on import sites such as Play-Asia and National Console Support, with individuals going so far as requesting preorder availability of the $300 collector's edition. Limited translations and extensive walkthroughs for various generations of the series can be found throughout the Internet, from Wikipedia to GameFAQs, requested and compiled by passionate supporters. Thus it comes as no surprise that repeated inquiries for localization are periodically posted on forums that specialize in such activity, the popular Atlus and NIS America among them.

Were Tokimeki Memorial 4 to see Western shores, there is compelling reason to believe the slumbering market Konami unsuccessfully extended a hand to find with Brooktown High would awaken and reciprocate with eagerness. Furthermore the depth and diversity of game mechanics in Tokimeki Memorial 4 would open doors to those unfamiliar with the series, owing from groundbreaking qualities that continue to earn praise and commanding reviews in Japan. With adequate advertising and enthusiastic community driven word of mouth, even exclusive distribution through the PlayStation Store would see positive turnout. Retaining the Japanese voice acting to expedite delivery and lower production costs could serve as a selling point towards those supportive of localizations maintaining an untainted presentation.

Konami is admired and respected for its bravery and innovation in digital entertainment. I encourage Konami to honor an iconic franchise to pioneer a market that remains untapped in North America, Europe, and Australia, thereby proving what many already know to be true: that the Western market is ready for a Tokimeki Memorial.

Sincerely,




Full Name,
Guaranteed Purchaser of Tokimeki Memorial 4 in English

[dorkatlarge]

I'm not sure which person on GameFAQs created the letter you quoted, Devil in the Details, but it seems a similar "convince Konami to create an official translation" campaign is getting started on Nargrakhan's site http://tokimekimemorial4.com . Read the site and see what you think.

Meanwhile, English speaking fans have been taking matters into their own hands. In addition to Summer Session, and the ongoing projects Shira Oka and Lucky Rabbit Reflex project, there's a new original-English-language ("OEL") dating simulation called The Flower Shop at http://www.winterwolves.com/theflowershop.htm . (With indie games such as this one getting released, it may not be long before fans start to prefer OEL games over untranslated games...)

[cj iwakura]

Wow, I can't believe Pangya only sold 5,000 copies...O.O I will cherish mine forever.

I'm not surprised. I bet it had absolutely no marketing.

[Devil in the Details]

I'm not sure which person on GameFAQs created the letter you quoted, Devil in the Details, but it seems a similar "convince Konami to create an official translation" campaign is getting started on Nargrakhan's site http://tokimekimemorial4.com . Read the site and see what you think.

Thanks for the heads up. :)

[Ladybird]

I'd buy any Tokimeki Memorial.

[redrighthand]

Fuyukaze: If popular gaming is only concerned with sports games and FPSes lately, I don't want anything to do with it. I'll stick with Dept. Heaven and other good RPGs and strategy games!

And while I also doubt that Atlus could get Tokimeki Memorial, it sure would be nice if it ever happened...

[Ladybird]

Just a thought, but maybe they could try starting with a Girl's Side. Girls tend not to be as embarrassed to be interested in romance than guys.

[landlock]

They'd be more chance if there were some more recent ones on the PC.

[Ladybird]

Lots of girls have handhelds these days. I think a while ago there was a study that said over 50% of PSP owners are female.

[DamageCity]

Lots of girls have handhelds these days. I think a while ago there was a study that said over 50% of PSP owners are female.


Ha! I would love to read that study.

[Ladybird]

Lots of girls have handhelds these days. I think a while ago there was a study that said over 50% of PSP owners are female.


Ha! I would love to read that study.

http://www.next-gen.biz/news/nielsen-52-per-cent-of-psp-owners-female

[DamageCity]

Lots of girls have handhelds these days. I think a while ago there was a study that said over 50% of PSP owners are female.


Ha! I would love to read that study.

http://www.next-gen.biz/news/nielsen-52-per-cent-of-psp-owners-female


I would to know how nielsen did their poling. Anyways this game wouldn't be successful, end of story.

[Ladybird]

Please stop trolling.

[DamageCity]

Please stop trolling.


All I'm saying is there is a lot of better games out there for ATLUS USA to publish than crap like this.

[landlock]

All I'm saying is there is a lot of better games out there for ATLUS USA to publish than crap like this.

Considering some of things they have brought over in the past this "crap" could be alot better. Plus that is only your opinion so it ain't worth much on the whole.

[DamageCity]

All I'm saying is there is a lot of better games out there for ATLUS USA to publish than crap like this.

Considering some of things they have brought over in the past this "crap" could be alot better. Plus that is only your opinion so it ain't worth much on the whole.


For example?

[Ladybird]

You don't know any better than anybody else how successful this game would be. I take it you haven't played one either, so you can't know it's crap. Stop acting like you everything.

[landlock]

For example?

Of course this is just my opinion and other people will no doubt disagree but

101 in 1 Party Megamix, Steambot Chronicles: Battle Tournament, Dokapon Journey, My World My Way, Operation Darkness just off the top of my head they were all average to bad IMO.

Clearly you don't like dating sims or visual novels and that's fine but they are getting popular in the west. A PSN release would also reduce the cost.

[DamageCity]

For example?

A PSN release would also reduce the cost.


huh???

[landlock]

For example?

A PSN release would also reduce the cost.


huh???

A PSN exculsive release of Tokimeki Memorial 4 (i.e no disc release). Anyway it won't happen so it doesn't really matter.

Hopefully they'll be a newer PC release of a Tokimeki Memorial game in the future that someone like MangaGamer can do there pretty good at getting some pretty big games.

[Olethros]

I love these discussions that almost always bring about the inevitable claim that VNs are gaining popularity in the west. I hear it consistently but I've yet to see proof of it.

Reminds me of the claims of a MASSIVE market for anime in the west. Yet the companies that have tried to make money off of it have either failed spectacularly or are just scraping by. Just because a devoted internet sub-population is incredibly vocal does NOT equate to it being large or a reliable source of revenue.

Final thought: DC is no troll; he's just been around here long enough to see the circular nature of these things. Demand appears to go up, someone inevitably tries it, and it fails spectacularly. Wash, rinse, repeat...

[Ladybird]

Anime has also massive piracy. These two things are not comparable. If you look at games, many niche genres have gained popularity and very "Japanese" games are accepted unlike before. Back when Persona 1 was first released, it underwent major changes in localization. With the re-release, they didn't even try anymore. Most things Atlus brings over right now would have been completely unthinkable 10 years ago. It wasn't such a long time ago when bringing out JRPGs in the west was thought to be a lost cause. Things change.

[landlock]

I love these discussions that almost always bring about the inevitable claim that VNs are gaining popularity in the west. I hear it consistently but I've yet to see proof of it.

Well the fact that the market has spread from VN's only being release in Japan to VN's now being released in NA and more recently even Europe. I think speaks volumes about how the popularity has increased over the years. Otherwise why would they bother?

With bigger titles like Shuffle!, Higurashi and Da Capo finally being released in English when before it would have been unheardful surely means something.

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[Olethros]

EDIT: ^ lolol


OK, but how are they selling? Are the companies releasing them making any profits? Is this something that can be proven to be mass-market sellable or is it niche even by niche standards?

If they even CONSIDERED it I'm sure these are the types of questions Atlus would be asking, not if the call for their localization has gained momentum on the internet or if someone has anecdotal evidence to support it's growth.

[Enzeru]

Well, personally, I think that Manga Gamer bringing over all-age titles now shows that they are at least *attempting* to enlarge the popularity of VNs, with When They Cry, one of the most beloved VNs, finally getting a release here, perhaps there will be more interest. They've even brought over an all-ages version of KiraKira.

[Ladybird]

I know it's something of a risk to bring dating sims to west, because there hasn't been any decent attempt on it before so nobody really knows what kind of sales to expect. But Atlus doesn't really cater to the mass market audiences anyway and lots of their games have not been certain hits. Sometimes taking risks doesn't pay off, and sometimes it does. Did anyone think Demon Souls would become RPG of the year? I know lots of people like to pretend they know exactly how well games will sell beforehand, but you just never really know.

[landlock]

OK, but how are they selling? Are the companies releasing them making any profits? Is this something that can be proven to be mass-market sellable or is it niche even by niche standards?

If they even CONSIDERED it I'm sure these are the types of questions Atlus would be asking, not if the call for their localization has gained momentum on the internet or if someone has anecdotal evidence to support it's growth.

In the end the only people that know if there selling is Jast USA and MangaGamer and they haven't released any numbers. Though the fact MangaGamer has increased they release slate from like 4 games a year to 2 games a month is a good sign IMO that they are a least making a profit plus the fact JAST USA has now been around for years.

Also just recently the Japanese company Nitroplus has signed up with JAST USA to translate and start releasing there games in America through JAST starting with Demonbane. All these point to promising signs.

While there is no concrete evidence for it. They isn't really any concrete evidence against it either and surely it's worth investigating at least. Especially with a title that is fairly well known already.

[Olethros]

My question then becomes, if all these quality outlets are putting these types of games out already, why should Atlus need to horn in on it? Also, I'm no expert on this by a long shot but isn't JAST the company that puts out the Hentai games? Let's not even go down that road.

Let me put a hypothetical scenario forth to you: Perhaps these companies DO produce some profits but is it because it's selling well or is it because they cut corners in the localization/translation areas and push them out the door sub-par? Atlus USA has a reputation for extremely high quality localizations. On a text heavy game that would amout to a lot of time consuming translation and editorial work...most likely more than your typical game. They can't afford the hit in reputation to push it out with errors and the time and labor intensiveness of the localization most likely wouldn't be returned to them in sales. Lose-lose for Atlus USA; maybe not so much for such reputable businesses such as JAST and MangaGamer.

[Ladybird]

My question then becomes, if all these quality outlets are putting these types of games out already, why should Atlus need to horn in on it?

How is this different from any other genre? Why should Atlus bother with, say, RPGs if someone else is doing it already?

Sakura Wars V came out a while ago, and it's 75% dating sim/VN. I don't know any official numbers, but it seems to be selling just fine. Stores sold out their initial shipments quickly and still keep ordering new stock.

[Olethros]

My question then becomes, if all these quality outlets are putting these types of games out already, why should Atlus need to horn in on it?

How is this different from any other genre? Why should Atlus bother with, say, RPGs if someone else is doing it already?

Sakura Wars V came out a while ago, and it's 75% dating sim/VN. I don't know any official numbers, but it seems to be selling just fine. Stores sold out their initial shipments quickly and still keep ordering new stock.

RPG's are a proven commodity here. They can fairly accurately predict how many units will probably sell and what that will mean in terms of budget needed to make a profit.

Given the rather lengthy translation/localization time and significant levels of effort needed to do it well, it wouldn't be prudent for them to risk their reputation or their bottom line to experiment with it.

Of course, there is always the possibilty that they may prove me wrong and announce one of these VN's you kids keep begging about but it's also possible that you could win the lottery and start producing them yourself. Both possible and both about equally probable.

[Ladybird]

I think we are all well aware of how extensive the translation process is and what the risks are with story-heavy games such as this one. The bottom line still is that one cannot publish anything without risk, Atlus is known for catering niche audiences with product that others find too risky, and VNs might not be as risky as many people believe. Some closer relatives of VNs like adventure games have exceeded expectations and seem to be on the rise. Atlus itself has published Touch Detective. Many extremely Japanese francises, like the Persona series, have done very well. Sakura Wars was one of those series we were never supposed to have either, yet here we are.

[Olethros]

I suppose we could go back and forth like this for quite some time. Pretty pointless, though. I've made my arguments and their validity will be proven over time as Atlus continues to NOT publish minority demanded tripe. :)

[Phoenix_Apollo]

On the subject of VNs, I think the most obvious example to look at how they're doing in the West is to look at the Ace Attorney series. Yes, it's just one example and one franchise, but it's pretty popular. It's developed quite a big following, especially with all the Youtube videos and everything. I mean, they wouldn't still be releasing them again on Wiiware if they weren't selling at all.

Also, another thing to look into is to see how NISA's Disgaea Infinite does once it comes out in June, since it's just a Disgaea VN.

Also, Sakura Wars is gaining in sales too and it's mostly a console VN. Even Amazon couldn't keep it totally in stock at first, even if it is on the PS2/Wii. Overall, I think VN's are becoming more popular in the West. They aren't exploding, selling millions (maybe Ace Attorney is; I haven't a clue beyond the fact that the original sold like half a million or something), or anything, but they are becoming more and more established here.

[Clephas]

On the subject of VNs, I think the most obvious example to look at how they're doing in the West is to look at the Ace Attorney series. Yes, it's just one example and one franchise, but it's pretty popular. It's developed quite a big following, especially with all the Youtube videos and everything. I mean, they wouldn't still be releasing them again on Wiiware if they weren't selling at all.

Also, another thing to look into is to see how NISA's Disgaea Infinite does once it comes out in June, since it's just a Disgaea VN.

Also, Sakura Wars is gaining in sales too and it's mostly a console VN. Even Amazon couldn't keep it totally in stock at first, even if it is on the PS2/Wii. Overall, I think VN's are becoming more popular in the West. They aren't exploding, selling millions (maybe Ace Attorney is; I haven't a clue beyond the fact that the original sold like half a million or something), or anything, but they are becoming more and more established here.

You are not wrong... Vns are gradually gaining a much wider audience than just two years ago, partially because of the profusion of fantranslations that have been springing up for decent ones of late... However, at this point, sales for console VNs are fairly uncertain in the US... Ace Attorney is part of an extremely niche subgenre of a niche genre that happened to hit one of America's most beloved sweet spots... crime shows.

Olethros... while your arguments aren't wrong, you went a bit far by calling it 'minority demanded tripe' because the same could be said for any number of the games Atlus has put out recently. Console VNs are mostly an unknown quantity here, so I don't disagree with your assessment entirely, though.

PC ones do better because they are accessible to practically everyone, due to the fact that VNs need relatively little power from the system... I honestly see Sakura Wars as a fluke that sold mostly because it already had a large (and obsessive) following here and it was a hybrid rpg/VN rather than a normal VN. Also, another issue is that the VN localization companies have only recently begun to bring over VNs (barring a few rare exceptions like Kana Imoto) that aren't ero-centric ... and there is still a strong view of that type of game being mostly for perverts.

Edit: If you want proof that VNs are gaining popularity in the West... mangagamer's recent success is all you need to see. I won't say that they are doing spectacularly, but their products are consistently making them a profit, which the early VN/eroge companies never quite managed (mostly because they were putting out pure crap)

[Ladybird]

Ace Attorney is part of an extremely niche subgenre of a niche genre that happened to hit one of America's most beloved sweet spots... crime shows.

So is romance.

Point and click adventure games are niche, but not that niche. They had a very large following in the west, had some quiet years and are raising in popularity again. Story-centric games are definitely on the rise again.

[Ladybird]

I suppose we could go back and forth like this for quite some time. Pretty pointless, though. I've made my arguments and their validity will be proven over time as Atlus continues to NOT publish minority demanded tripe. :)

That's exactly what they've been doing all along.

Making sales predictions is hard. Game companies and industry analysts keep failing at it, sometimes horribly, despite the fact that their whole business may depend on on it. Still every forum has besserwissers who don't have any actual sales data or industry experience, and still keep pulling out their sales predictions out of their magic hats with perfect certainty. Even for series and entire genres that have never been published in the west! If only I'd gotten a buck for each time a random person on the Internet has said a certain game will never sell, and has later proven to be wrong... :)

[Clephas]

Ladybird, watch the double-posting.

And anyway, not all VNs are romance... though there is usually some element of that in any given one. Also, one of the problems when it comes to figuring out sales is the simple fact that most of the people who consider of what kind of games to localize/make:

1- Are not gamers
2- Are gamers, but only casual ones.
3- Are gamers, but think their favorite series/genre will have a wider appeal than it does or think games they don't particularly like aren't worth considering
4- Choose/make games based not on what they know will sell, but rather on what they think might sell...

That's just the sales part though... Another problem would be that 'artist' game-makers sometimes go overboard in the pursuit of their personal pet projects. This sometimes gets spectacular and unexpected results, but there is just as good a chance that it will fail completely.

Another obstacle for the VN genre in particular, one that people shouldn't underestimate, is SCEA. Their tendency toward blocking game localizations for completely illogical reasons is world-famous, though I think people tend to forget about it when the subject doesn't come up for a while.

[Olethros]

Olethros... while your arguments aren't wrong, you went a bit far by calling it 'minority demanded tripe' because the same could be said for any number of the games Atlus has put out recently. Console VNs are mostly an unknown quantity here, so I don't disagree with your assessment entirely, though.



You are correct sir. I went slightly past the line; it's what I do. ;)


Making sales predictions is hard. Game companies and industry analysts keep failing at it, sometimes horribly, despite the fact that their whole business may depend on on it. Still every forum has besserwissers who don't have any actual sales data or industry experience, and still keep pulling out their sales predictions out of their magic hats with perfect certainty. Even for series and entire genres that have never been published in the west! If only I'd gotten a buck for each time a random person on the Internet has said a certain game will never sell, and has later proven to be wrong... :smile:


Bold: Isn't this exactly what you're doing by screaming for a company to risk their money on a gamble? Supporters get down right angry and resort to name calling when others disagree with their opinions but the bottom line is that it's not their reputation or economic viability on the line if (when) it fails spectacularly.

Underline: I'd be rich if the opposite were true as well. What's your point?

[Ladybird]

I don't think I've been either screaming at Atlus nor gotten angry at anyone for disagreeing with me. I daresay I've been more polite and respecting than you have, Olethros.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone disagreeing with me. What I do have a problem with is other forum members telling me or any other member what should or should not be posted here. With all due respect, your guesswork on the chances of any particular game being published is as good as mine, so please stop putting up your opinions as fact.

I don't see anyone making any demands here. This board is called "Game Suggestions." I dare guess the whole reason it exists is because Atlus wants to know what we want. What they do with those suggestions is entirely up to them, I don't think they need forum members making sure nobody else gives them "stupid ideas." We are allowed to suggest anything we like, no matter how obscure or unlikely. Heck, why wouldn't we? It's free, it takes just a couple of minutes of our time, and it sure doesn't hurt the chances of actually getting it. So where is the problem here? How is this wrong? Why is this worth objections?

[Olethros]

I suppose the wording on that last post would suggest I was specifically calling you out for screaming and name calling. That wasn't my intent. Those particular references were generalizations based on a long time observing threads like these. I was lurking here forever and a day before I ever started actively participating. I apologize for the misconception on that one. Having said that, however, I would also contend that my behavior has been very polite and respectful. Given what occurs almost hourly at a lot of forums through out the internets, I'd wager this entire forum is above average in terms of tolerance and civility. These days anyway.

Also, I don't recall ever telling anyone what they can or cannot post. That's not my job or my call. I will, though, voice my opinion on any subject I choose whether it is going to generate agreements or not. I couldn't care less if people like me or respect me. They will have to, at some time or another, admit that I am right more often than not.

The bottom line here is that I was expressing my opinion that I think it would be unwise for Atlus to publish THIS particular item or items within the genre. My right to do so is just as much valid as your right to suggest it in the first place. You don't have to like that but you do have to accept it.

[Phoenix_Apollo]

But, you know, releasing more VN's could be indeed away to capitalize on the fact that story-centric games are indeed becoming popular again. Not just Ace Attorney or Sakura Wars, but also Heavy Rain, which actually topped a million copies sold, as well as past success like Metal Gear Solid and Xenogears/Xenosaga (both of which also topped a million).

It's kind of like a bottleneck. For a while, I'd say that the only place we could find story centric games were the odd MGS or Xenosaga that came down our way. Now, we actually have more choices, more than ever in 2010; with Ace Attorney, Sakura Wars, and Heavy Rain all releasing within the first six months of this year. They are definitely on the rise, and releasing more VN's could capitalize on that want.

[Clephas]

Thing is, Heavy Rain was from a genre with an established niche in the market, and it used its unusual game mechanic as a selling point. While it was story-heavy, that game mechanic was what gave it its momentum. The problem with console VNs is that SCEA generally won't allow them to be localized if they don't have some sort of other game mechanic to add onto the normal point and click of VNs.

[Phoenix_Apollo]

I wasn't really trying to say that Heavy Rain was like a VN, if that's what you took it to mean. I was just giving it as an example as a story-centric game that sold well. But it, as well as (and, more related to) Sakura Wars are still prying open the niche a bit more, I think. If games like this continue to come out, SCEA might change their mind. After all, they're letting Disgaea Infinite come out, which doesn't have much else to offer besides the brand name, to my knowledge.

[Gwendolyn]

I'd support TokiMeki if it meant that Girl's Side would come out too.

Honestly, I think they'd have more success in spreading VNs aimed at a female audience; one reason why I'm buying P3 for the second time is because I am honestly excited about having S. Links with the guys.

[HotLimit]

I wasn't really trying to say that Heavy Rain was like a VN, if that's what you took it to mean. I was just giving it as an example as a story-centric game that sold well. But it, as well as (and, more related to) Sakura Wars are still prying open the niche a bit more, I think. If games like this continue to come out, SCEA might change their mind. After all, they're letting Disgaea Infinite come out, which doesn't have much else to offer besides the brand name, to my knowledge.

Seriously, unless there's something I don't know about Disgaea Infinite, that game's North American release is a total anomaly.

[Olethros]

Yeah, and there's an obvious reason for that. Look out kids, there's a bomb falling...

[cj iwakura]

I will buy the heck out of Disgaea Infinite,and if anyone in this thread REALLY cares about visual novels, prove it with your wallet and support them.

[Phoenix_Apollo]

I will be when I actually get a PSP. Which, I'll be saving up for soon, at least. Just gotta get some other things out of the way.

[Archie55]

Sounds fun. I'm in.