Bioware founder says JRPGs "lack evolution"

[Nephlabobo]

From Destructoid:

While up at BioWare's headquarters in Edmonton, I had the opportunity to throw some questions at company co-founders Ray Muzyka and Greg Zeschuk. I was curious about how the duo felt about the current RPG landscape in general, and why we're seeing more and more western-style RPGs while JRPGs have, at least among North American audiences, fallen somewhat to the wayside.

"The fall of the JRPG in large part is due to a lack of evolution, a lack of progression," Zeschuk said. "They kept delivering the same thing over and over. They make the dressing better, they look prettier, but it's still the same experience.

"My favorite thing, it's funny when you still see it, but the joke of some of the dialogue systems where it asks, 'do you wanna do this or this,' and you say no. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. Lemme think -- you want me to say 'yes.' And that, unfortunately, really characterized the JRPG."

Zeschuk admits that there are definitely exceptions coming from the East (Demon's Souls is currently one of his favorite games), but North American definitions of role-playing have simply evolved beyond those of their counterparts on the other side of the world. "We have big debates on whether GTA is an RPG, for example. It's got all the elements, it just doesn't have the numbers. And what gamers here want is that higher depth, that higher integration of features...Mass Effect 2 is in some ways a continuation of that evolution."

I agree wholeheartedly with Dr. Zeschuk, but I no longer have any patience for JRPGs whatsoever (Half-Minute Hero notwithstanding, obviously). I'm curious to see what JRPG fans think of Zeschuk's stance, though. Do JRPGs really suffer from a lack of evolution?


So....who wants to punch this guy in the face first?

[slayn]

Yeah, let's punch him for being 100% correct.

Also, the link (http://www.destructoid.com/bioware-co-founder-jrpgs-suffer-from-lack-of-evolution--155782.phtml) since it wasn't included.

[Gen Eric Gui]

I hate the amount of freedom in WRPG's. It's stunning, it makes me not want to do anything. When I have a clearly defined goal like in a JRPG, I make much better progress and my interest is held.

That said, one of my favorite JRPG's is Romancing SaGa, which plays like a WRPG, so.

[Nephlabobo]

Yeah, let's punch him for being 100% correct.

Bwuh?

[slayn]

I hate the amount of freedom in WRPG's. It's stunning, it makes me not want to do anything. When I have a clearly defined goal like in a JRPG, I make much better progress and my interest is held.

That said, one of my favorite JRPG's is Romancing SaGa, which plays like a WRPG, so.

And that's perfectly fine. Zeschuck isn't saying the games are bad per se, simply that the basic formula has not changed much in over 20 years. However, as you demonstrate, that very consistency appeals to a lot of gamers. Look at Dragon Quest 8; the only difference between it and the original game is that you have multiple party members and the graphics and sound are a lot nicer. However, it is a wonderful game simply because it is so old-school.

If you keep making the same game over and over again, you're going to get really, really good at making that game. That is, by and large, the Japanese RPG market. And there's nothing wrong with that, but some people want to see more.

Bwuh?

I'm saying Zeschuck is right and that wanting to attack him for it is stupid.

[Macheath]

For me, JRPGs are better. I just can't get used to WRPGs for some reason. I gave up playing Dragon Age: Origins after forcing myself to play it for few hours. I'll give it another try, but for the time being, I just don't like it that much. Yeah, JRPGs do lack "evolution" sometimes, but I love them for that. :D

[Sseklebeast]

I hate the amount of freedom in WRPG's. It's stunning, it makes me not want to do anything. When I have a clearly defined goal like in a JRPG, I make much better progress and my interest is held.

It's funny that I was going to say the same exact thing. I've tried Bioware RPGs but I could not play through them all the way due to me not caring about the characters or the story.

[Nephlabobo]

I'm saying Zeschuck is right and that wanting to attack him for it is stupid.

I think he's way off - I mean Atlus stuff is a given, then you have stuff like Shadow Hearts and all kinds of interesting stuff on the DS.

Hell, even Yakuza is kind of an RPG.

More interesting than generic sword and sorcery stuff.

[ViolenceJack]

I have to say usually in games where you're allowed to do whatever you want I tend to get bored of and lose interest in pretty fast. But thats seems different with Fallout 3. Maybe its cause Apocalpytic worlds/movies always intertested me, maybe its that I get to explore a massive map. I dunno but its just fun to play. Esp if you're evil.

But I do like my games to have some sort of plot and storyline to them, maybe thats why I like Fallout, because sure you can do whatever but there's still a path to follow to the ending of the game.

I understand the quote here:
My favorite thing, it's funny when you still see it, but the joke of some of the dialogue systems where it asks, 'do you wanna do this or this,' and you say no. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. 'Do you wanna do this or this?' No. Lemme think -- you want me to say 'yes.'

Basicly true here, you'll be playing some game where you're given an option of what to say, like 'yes or no', but cannot proceed unless you say 'yes', so there's almost no point to giving you a 'no' option is you have to say 'yes' to proceed.

However having all rpgs be like wrpgs wouldnt be a good thing either.

[Andy]

Fallout 3 is Oblivion with guns.

[ViolenceJack]

I wouldnt know I've never played Oblivion.

[Andy]

Oh, I wasn't replying to your post. Just kinda adding to the discussion.

Every genre repeats itself. If you like the genre enough, you'll appreciate the the subtle changes more than a reinvention of the wheel you rode in on.

[Flußkönig]

I agree that jrpgs lack evolution, but then again so do Bioware's wrpgs. Bioware has repeatedly used the same or similar formula for the majority of its rpgs. Zeschuk definitely doesn't have much room to talk on this topic.

[Camanche]

I'm still trying to get used to Fallout but it's starting to grow on me. I still like JRPG's. I've never really had a problem because I expect them to be like that. It's what I like.

[Enzeru]

I agree that jrpgs lack evolution, but then again so do Bioware's wrpgs. Bioware has repeatedly used the same or similar formula for the majority of its rpgs. Zeschuk definitely doesn't have much room to talk on this topic.
This said it best. Mass Effect was cool because you could say what you wanted, when you wanted, and you could pick a background, etc. Dragon Age: Origins is the same, and presumably the sequel is, as well. You could say the same thing about next-gen Bioware RPGs as he is saying about JRPGs. He obviously just isn't taking notice to the finer differences (that AREN'T just prettier dressing; see: Strange Journey) that make an RPG in general, including Bioware's own RPGs. It's funny that he mentions Demon's Souls, an action JRPG, considering all of Bioware's notable RPGs (save Sonic) are action RPGs. Can he just say he doesn't like turn-based games?

[Gen Eric Gui]

Demon's Souls is barely even an RPG anyway. It's more of a Survival/Horror game with stats.

[Fatney]

This is so true. The biggest change I've seen in any jRPG lately is the music in the Persona games.

The developers need to make combat more streamlined with exploration. That's my biggest turn off from jRPGs. Imagine being in a somewhat long hallway, and you can see that there's a big, golden chest at the end of it. In a jRPG you're going to fight lots of battles on your way to it, and you even know you are going to. In a wRPG, you're going to just run over to it because you know there's nothing there, you can see there's nothing there. I mean, I always get excited in these situations in jRPGs, but the excitement fades as soon as the 10 second transition scene in to a battle occurs.

[Syra]

Yes, Nocturne, and Persona 4 have no innovative features, or choices at all. Oh, and King's Field just plain didn't exist. Let's not forget that Valkyria Chronicles did nothing interesting for the SRPG genre in any way.

And Dragon Age is absolutely not KOTOR with a medieval filter over top of it.


Oh wait!

Yeah, failing at innovation is a worldwide problem, and his blanket statements are rather silly considering Bioware hasn't actually done anything to innovate the genre besides make their conversations fancier with voice overs on both ends. Hell, even Way of the Samurai, a Japanese game, had seven endings in its first incarnation, and is up to almost twenty now. Not to mention its Push-Pull gameplay mechanic was absolute genius.

If anything, the real problem isn't the Japanese, it isn't the westerners, it's the fact we obsess over this moronic divide between the two. Demon's Souls is proof that blending concepts from each works wonderfully, but instead we have people looking at is as an exception to the rule, instead of inspiration. What any developer with half a brain should be doing is looking at the best of both worlds, instead of the worst, and finding a way to remove the barrier altogether. It shouldn't be about WRPG's and JRPG's, it should be about RPG's.

I have to say, as someone who likes Bioware, I just lost a huge amount of respect for the company. Talk about being egotistical.

[slayn]

This thread is pretty interesting because it very clearly illustrates exactly where everyone's bias lies.

On the one hand, you have the majority of posters in this thread - huge JPRG fans (not surprising considering the forum we're discussing this on). They like to focus in on the bogus claim that Bioware hasn't made any innovations while clearly ignoring aspects of games like Mass Effect which have made leaps and bounds towards making RPGs a more cinematic experience while still allowing players to make choices that actually effect the story. And if their promises for the sequels turn out to be true, the level to which an end-game save from a previous game can effect the course of the story in the sequel is virtually unprecedented.

Their other big release, Dragon Age, pushed the limits of how much player choice could affect the game world; you could try your best to play the game the same way two times in a row and still end up with differences in the ending because you forgot what choices you made on some minor things and picked something else. Very few games even try this, and I can't think of a single one that is as ambitious about it as Dragon Age.

Not to focus solely on Bioware, I did see someone mention Bethesda games. They did something that many gamers thought was patently impossible: they took the beloved Fallout series and made a sequel that was both fun and engaging using the same engine as Oblivion (a game many enjoyed but is univerally considered to be flawed). Then there's their work with DLC; along with Rockstar, they are demonstrating exactly what downloadable content should be.

And no one has mentioned any games made by European developers, a subset of RPG devs that are always trying something new in their games. I'll just give the JRPG fans the benefit of a doubt and conclude that since WRGPs aren't your cup of tea and you're not fond of the really big-name titles like Dragon Age and Fallout, you would have very little reason to be exposed to titles like the Gothic series or S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

On the other hand, a couple of people have come out in support of WRPGs. I'll freely admit to falling predominantly in this category. I agree with Dr. Zeschuck's assertion that JRPGs have seen very little evolution, but I don't necessarily agree that it's a bad thing. As I said earlier, when you've been making the same game for so long, you get really good at it. Companies like Atlus, SquareEnix, and Namco have refined their games to be nearly perfect examples of the traditional JRPG.

That's not to say there isn't any innovation, because there is, but Japanese companies are big proponents of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy. For every game that does something truly new, like Persona 3 with it's social link system (I'm sorry, Persona 4 was not innovative, it was merely a refinement of the Persona 3 formula) or Final Fantasy 8 with the draw/junction system (innovative does not necessarily equal popular), you have dozens of RPGs that are functionally identical.

Where Dr. Zeschuck makes a mistake is ignoring games that are largely classified in other genres but incorporate RPG elements. He cites the GTA games as a franchise that is blurring the line between genres, but an even better example would be the Yakuza series. Ultimately I think the evolution of the JRPG is going to come from outside the genre because of games like Yakuza.

There's a lot of confusion in this thread between innovation and quality. Someone mentioned the Shadow Hearts games; these are not innovative games, but they are well-made games. By the same token, Diablo 3 will very likely not be an innovative game, just an (extremely) well-made one.

Also, there is nothing wrong with drawing a distinction between western RPGs and Japanese RPGs; by and large, you play them in fundamentally different ways, so there needs to be a distinction. The real problem is people that think one subgenre is superior to the other. They both have their strong and weak points and cater to particular tastes. If one or the other isn't your thing, that's fine, but you need to realize that is simply your opinion and people that disagree are not wrong, they just have a different opinion.

[Hamel]

Gothic


Just wanted to say I really disliked Gothic 2 but it was at least better than The Elder Scroll series IMO

Anyway, I think that you can generalize every genre that way
Most games are not innovative and the ones that are, are a few in-between
sometimes they change the genre and people start to copy that and sometimes it's a one time thing (or one company thing) and the games stay the same

[slayn]

Just wanted to say I really disliked Gothic 2 but it was at least better than The Elder Scroll series IMO

That's cool. I personally prefer the Gothic games over the Elder Scrolls games, but I can certainly understand why a large number of people feel differently.

Anyway, I think that you can generalize every genre that way
Most games are not innovative and the ones that are, are a few in-between
sometimes they change the genre and people start to copy that and sometimes it's a one time thing (or one company thing) and the games stay the same

That generalization falls apart when you start talking about a genre whose releases are few and far between to begin with. There have been maybe a dozen WRPGs released since the 360 launched (as good a starting point as any), while there have been between 30 and 50 JRPGs (depending on how you count ports and remakes and whether you lump SRPGs in there). released for the various systems during the same timeframe.

But, of those dozen WRPGs, nearly all of them have done something new and innovative and had a definite effect on subsequent games, both from the same company and from other companies. The same simply cannot be said for JRPGs. For whatever reason, new things that one company tries will not be reflected in another company's games no matter how successful the effort, and it's even doubtful you'll see them again from the same company unless they are wildly successful.

[Camanche]

Reading a bit more and thinking on it, I've been starting to like WRPG's. I enjoyed Fable, and 2 looked even better.

[slayn]

^^Fable 2 improves on virtually everything from Fable and, as a bonus, starts delivering on some of the promises Molyneaux made for the first game :D. It's a platinum hit now (or will be soon), so it can be had for fairly cheap.

[Camanche]

Now all I need is a 360. :D

[ShinGundam]

Demon's Souls is barely even an RPG anyway. It's more of a Survival/Horror game with stats.
But Mass Effect is is just a Gears of war with skills

I think he need to GTFO and make a better Sonic RPG on my DS =(

[Hamel]

Just wanted to say I really disliked Gothic 2 but it was at least better than The Elder Scroll series IMO

That's cool. I personally prefer the Gothic games over the Elder Scrolls games, but I can certainly understand why a large number of people feel differently.


That's what I said
it was at least better than The Elder Scroll series
I don't get people that actully liked TES series

[Nephlabobo]

Also, there is nothing wrong with drawing a distinction between western RPGs and Japanese RPGs; by and large, you play them in fundamentally different ways, so there needs to be a distinction. The real problem is people that think one subgenre is superior to the other.

I don't think one is superior - I just think that blanket statements like the one that guy made are gross oversimplifications.

[raiku]

i agree and disagree

i agree that most JRPGs these days are SOS(same old stuff). stuff like blue dragon and FF12 mightve been great in the 90s, but we need change, which is why i love megaten, as it brings new stuff to the table

now WRPGs. i love the freedom of choice, but i dont like it being given to me all at once(except for fallout 3 and oblivion). i didnt like mass effect for the confusing missions and the boring storyline(except im not big on scifi so yeah) truthfully, WRPGs from the 90s were pretty bad compared to todays standards, if they were released today, id be surprised if they were even given a decent review

[Nephlabobo]

There is also a certain element present in interview and the press of "Slanty eyed Japs can suck it! The West is Teh Superior at everything!" these days which is incredibly grating.

[iloveatlus]

and there games are garbage and complete trash. i play dad dragon flop on my dad xbox. boring game play, ugly characters, boring characters, boring story, boring slow combat

[Foobar]

I just find it funny that Bioware is the one patting themselves on the back for dialog branches. Seriously, if the choices in their games were that dramatic, they'd lead to totally different endgames and they NEVER do. Its the same endgame with a slightly different flavor to it.

Best western RPGs I've played this year are not only fully linear, but skew to classic dungeon hacks or innovative strategy designs. Torchlight is the best $20 you could have spent all year, and now its $9.99. Might and Magic: Clash of Heroes takes the strategy RPG and mixes it with "match three" puzzle elements and I've already heard the PA guys talk about sinking more time into it and its multiplayer than they have Uncharted 2. I've already sunk plenty in the last week and a half I've had it.

[Fatney]

Reading a bit more and thinking on it, I've been starting to like WRPG's. I enjoyed Fable, and 2 looked even better.

If you want to play wRPGs, you need to play something else than the Fable series. The first one was OK, the second one was horrible. The series feels like a severely stripped down wRPG, Fable 2 even removed the Game Over-screen. I've never played an easier or thinner RPG in my life.

Might I suggest the Fallout series, KOTOR I/II or The Witcher? Oblivion is also good (depending on how much you are willing to ignore it's faults), and Morrowind seems much better. I haven't gotten around to play it properly yet, though.

[slayn]

There's really no comparison between Morrowind and Oblivion; the former is simply a better game.

[Kakizaki]

and there games are garbage and complete trash. i play dad dragon flop on my dad xbox. boring game play, ugly characters, boring characters, boring story, boring slow combat

In all seriousness, can you please try a little harder grammar-wise? I can't even make sense of this.

[Fatney]

I would personally translate that text into "And their (Americans?) games are garbage and complete trash. I played dad's Dragon Age (which was a flop???) on my dad's Xbox. (...)". But I guess it could mean anything.

[Soushi_Grapple]

Ive always steered away from WRPGs because they tend to play closer to shooters or action rpgs... Im a turn based fan so everything right now is far from my alley. I say the industry has been saturated with SRPGs which is why Ive begun to pick them up more (just started Disgaea DS.. I cant really get into it.. it screams hot topic posers at me and I wanna like this game just for Prinnys lol... I admit I say "yay" to the complex SRPG system which is why Im pushing forward with it, HOWEVER I hate grinding which is next to unavoidable in SRPGs.. I dont have time to waste on them..) Im also not much of a PC gamer because the keyboard / mouse is difficult for me to use (I only attempted American McGee's Alice and I play the Sims 2 on occasion..)

I like my JRPGs... Looking forward to Final Fantasy XIII, Star Ocean 4 International, Lunar: Silver Star Harmony LE, and Sakura Wars V... Waiting for Strange Journey and P3P to come out here as well.

[Hamel]

Reading a bit more and thinking on it, I've been starting to like WRPG's. I enjoyed Fable, and 2 looked even better.

If you want to play wRPGs, you need to play something else than the Fable series. The first one was OK, the second one was horrible. The series feels like a severely stripped down wRPG, Fable 2 even removed the Game Over-screen. I've never played an easier or thinner RPG in my life.

Might I suggest the Fallout series, KOTOR I/II or The Witcher? Oblivion is also good (depending on how much you are willing to ignore it's faults), and Morrowind seems much better. I haven't gotten around to play it properly yet, though.
You forgot the best WRPG (again IMO) which is Baldur's Gate 2

Ive always steered away from WRPGs because they tend to play closer to shooters or action rpgs... Im a turn based fan so everything right now is far from my alley. I say the industry has been saturated with SRPGs which is why Ive begun to pick them up more (just started Disgaea DS.. I cant really get into it.. it screams hot topic posers at me and I wanna like this game just for Prinnys lol... I admit I say "yay" to the complex SRPG system which is why Im pushing forward with it, HOWEVER I hate grinding which is next to unavoidable in SRPGs.. I dont have time to waste on them..) Im also not much of a PC gamer because the keyboard / mouse is difficult for me to use (I only attempted American McGee's Alice and I play the Sims 2 on occasion..)


If you want a SRPG that encourages you not to grind (because it can block the true ending for too many fights) try Agarest Wars for the PS3
you can eiter import the European version or wait for the American version

[Gen Eric Gui]

Demon's Souls is barely even an RPG anyway. It's more of a Survival/Horror game with stats.
But Mass Effect is is just a Gears of war with skills

I think he need to GTFO and make a better Sonic RPG on my DS =(


I haven't even PLAYED Mass Effect and I know that isn't true.

[Flußkönig]

But, of those dozen WRPGs, nearly all of them have done something new and innovative and had a definite effect on subsequent games, both from the same company and from other companies. The same simply cannot be said for JRPGs. For whatever reason, new things that one company tries will not be reflected in another company's games no matter how successful the effort, and it's even doubtful you'll see them again from the same company unless they are wildly successful.
Okay, so what was the new and innovative element that arose between say NWN and DA:O, or Baldur's Gate / KotOR and DA:O? Fallout to Arcanum: oSaMO, ect. Was the new and innovative part of Fallout 3 that it was a shooter? What is so innovative about a shooter with rpg elements, or if you prefer; what is so innovative about ME/Fallout 3?

It is almost like you are arguing that games only evolve properly through conformity. I think that is narrow minded view, sudden mutations are important to the evolutionary process too. Also, your contention that jrpgs do not effect one another is ridiculous. I have no clue what exactly you are even basing that on.

Not to mention that the best example of rpg gaming evolution that I have witnessed originated in a jrpg series. In its lifetime the SaGa series has seen more new and innovative elements built into the core mechanics than any other wrpg that I am aware of.

[iloveatlus]

and there games are garbage and complete trash. i play dad dragon flop on my dad xbox. boring game play, ugly characters, boring characters, boring story, boring slow combat

In all seriousness, can you please try a little harder grammar-wise? I can't even make sense of this.

what im trying to say is that bioware sucks at making rpg. dragon age only sold 300k and final fantasy xiii sold 1 million on one day, their feelings got hurt because their rpg cant sell 1 million in a day so they have to trash jrpg. when u cant beat the best just trash them thats how competition work

[Flußkönig]

^ That has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Also, I am pretty sure that only includes console numbers. Maybe just the 360 numbers.

[Terash Cas]

^ That has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Also, I am pretty sure that only includes console numbers. Maybe just the 360 numbers.

For both it is still console numbers unless FFXIII is also on PC.

Mass Effect to me was nothing new just Starflight with purty graphics and a different style.

Same conversation problem plague wrpgs and jrpgs just how many times can you make someone repeat themselves until you make a "choice"?

I like Morrowind to Oblivion... Prefer Fallout 2 to Fallout 3.


Odd that

[Kakizaki]

and there games are garbage and complete trash. i play dad dragon flop on my dad xbox. boring game play, ugly characters, boring characters, boring story, boring slow combat

In all seriousness, can you please try a little harder grammar-wise? I can't even make sense of this.

what im trying to say is that bioware sucks at making rpg. dragon age only sold 300k and final fantasy xiii sold 1 million on one day, their feelings got hurt because their rpg cant sell 1 million in a day so they have to trash jrpg. when u cant beat the best just trash them thats how competition work

Only 300k? For someone that enjoys the rpgs that Atlus USA publishes, I would hope you could see the irony in your own comment.

Anyway, let's not get bogged down in a numbers game. As Flußkönig mentioned, numbers are meaningless in regards to this thread. Large sales do not equal quality.

Also, please temper your statements -- especially considering they are primarily based off of nothing more than your own opinions. I really don't want to see this thread reduced to the same level of idiocy present in the various console war threads around here.

[Fatney]

Reading a bit more and thinking on it, I've been starting to like WRPG's. I enjoyed Fable, and 2 looked even better.

If you want to play wRPGs, you need to play something else than the Fable series. The first one was OK, the second one was horrible. The series feels like a severely stripped down wRPG, Fable 2 even removed the Game Over-screen. I've never played an easier or thinner RPG in my life.

Might I suggest the Fallout series, KOTOR I/II or The Witcher? Oblivion is also good (depending on how much you are willing to ignore it's faults), and Morrowind seems much better. I haven't gotten around to play it properly yet, though.
You forgot the best WRPG (again IMO) which is Baldur's Gate 2

I have yet to play a lot of wRPGs, as I'm pretty new into the genre. I used to be a jRPG "lover", but I've come to realize how much more fulfilling wRPGs usually are. Western RPGs may seem complex and hard, but they are so addicting and interesting when you understand the system and let yourself immerse in the worlds those games offer.

I still play jRPGs, but not as often as I used to. I know less jRPGs are made, but I still have a lot of gems I haven't played, so that's not the issue. It's just that they easily become tedious and boring to the point that I control the game with just one hand while I'm almost sleeping. Mowing the lawn are often as rewarding as jRPGs, with all their grinding and confusing sidequests/minigames (which you have to finish to get the best equipment).

[Hamel]

Mowing the lawn are often as rewarding as jRPGs, with all their grinding and confusing sidequests/minigames (which you have to finish to get the best equipment).

funny that you say that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmUNDQs2bog

[Soushi_Grapple]

Reading a bit more and thinking on it, I've been starting to like WRPG's. I enjoyed Fable, and 2 looked even better.

If you want to play wRPGs, you need to play something else than the Fable series. The first one was OK, the second one was horrible. The series feels like a severely stripped down wRPG, Fable 2 even removed the Game Over-screen. I've never played an easier or thinner RPG in my life.

Might I suggest the Fallout series, KOTOR I/II or The Witcher? Oblivion is also good (depending on how much you are willing to ignore it's faults), and Morrowind seems much better. I haven't gotten around to play it properly yet, though.
You forgot the best WRPG (again IMO) which is Baldur's Gate 2

Ive always steered away from WRPGs because they tend to play closer to shooters or action rpgs... Im a turn based fan so everything right now is far from my alley. I say the industry has been saturated with SRPGs which is why Ive begun to pick them up more (just started Disgaea DS.. I cant really get into it.. it screams hot topic posers at me and I wanna like this game just for Prinnys lol... I admit I say "yay" to the complex SRPG system which is why Im pushing forward with it, HOWEVER I hate grinding which is next to unavoidable in SRPGs.. I dont have time to waste on them..) Im also not much of a PC gamer because the keyboard / mouse is difficult for me to use (I only attempted American McGee's Alice and I play the Sims 2 on occasion..)


If you want a SRPG that encourages you not to grind (because it can block the true ending for too many fights) try Agarest Wars for the PS3
you can eiter import the European version or wait for the American version

I checked the Wiki. I remember hearing the name ages ago.. Its coming to 360 here so I should be able to pick this up pending $$ lol Red Company basically sold me on this, thanks for pointing it out! =D

[Syra]

(just started Disgaea DS.. I cant really get into it.. it screams hot topic posers at me and I wanna like this game just for Prinnys lol

I don't really care that you dislike Disgaea, or SRPG's in general, but to claim that there is any real relation between Disgaea humor, and Hot-Topic's bastardization of various subcultures is simply absurd. The fact that anything with demons instantly equates to "hot-topic" is an idiotic side-effect created by the hold said company has created over our society. Next you'll be claiming that Siouxsie or the Bauhaus are "Hot-topic" clones. =.=

Anyway, I'm done. Back your regularly scheduled topic.

[sfried]

I don't think I have to reiterate my stance about the whole "East/West dichotomy fallacy" and the fact that "WRPG" and "JRPG" are false categories created by the predominance of the shift towards otaku-oriented demographic starting with Final Fantasy VII. In the meantime, it seems like people are ignoring the Mother franchise and many exception like Etrian Odyssey which stray the line to the point you could say "the rule of thumb should be chopped off".

And what about games like GTA3-4? What about space trading simulation games? Shouldn't those be considered RPGs as well? People have stereotypes so-called "Western RPGs" as nothing more than the bald space-marine/overmuscular archetypes found in America (and I don't care if BioWare is Canadian)while ignoring things made in Europe (which tend to have more sympathetic and fleshed out characters). It saddenes me when the limitation of exposure of the general public creates these social constructs of some imaginary "gap" when in fact there is none.

[Fatney]

Mowing the lawn are often as rewarding as jRPGs, with all their grinding and confusing sidequests/minigames (which you have to finish to get the best equipment).

funny that you say that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmUNDQs2bog

Haha, oh minigames. I never liked Overlord anyways.

[Pantaloons]

I just find it funny that Bioware is the one patting themselves on the back for dialog branches. Seriously, if the choices in their games were that dramatic, they'd lead to totally different endgames and they NEVER do.

Yeah. Neither Japanese nor Western rpgs have really "evolved" much at all. Bioware has made the same illusory "moral choices" games where the the choices amount to little to nothing for the past decade, for example. And others are much worse. You have computer RPGs from the 90s that had more complex and interesting mechanics than today's. All that really sets individual games apart is the combat mechanics and gameplay quality nowadays. Innovation is pretty much dead.

[SlaughterX]

I agree that jrpgs lack evolution, but then again so do Bioware's wrpgs. Bioware has repeatedly used the same or similar formula for the majority of its rpgs. Zeschuk definitely doesn't have much room to talk on this topic.
This said it best. Mass Effect was cool because you could say what you wanted, when you wanted, and you could pick a background, etc. Dragon Age: Origins is the same, and presumably the sequel is, as well. You could say the same thing about next-gen Bioware RPGs as he is saying about JRPGs. He obviously just isn't taking notice to the finer differences (that AREN'T just prettier dressing; see: Strange Journey) that make an RPG in general, including Bioware's own RPGs. It's funny that he mentions Demon's Souls, an action JRPG, considering all of Bioware's notable RPGs (save Sonic) are action RPGs. Can he just say he doesn't like turn-based games?

Actually Mass Effect is the only Bioware RPG that I can think of that isn't turn based...

[Foobar]

I just find it funny that Bioware is the one patting themselves on the back for dialog branches. Seriously, if the choices in their games were that dramatic, they'd lead to totally different endgames and they NEVER do.

Yeah. Neither Japanese nor Western rpgs have really "evolved" much at all. Bioware has made the same illusory "moral choices" games where the the choices amount to little to nothing for the past decade, for example. And others are much worse. You have computer RPGs from the 90s that had more complex and interesting mechanics than today's. All that really sets individual games apart is the combat mechanics and gameplay quality nowadays. Innovation is pretty much dead.

RPGs don't need a lot of innovation these days, particularly because they've innovated every other genre of gaming by having the most progressive designs anyway. RPGs and fighters combined, really. What game doesn't have a "super meter" or "EXP" these days?

I do think Bioware should be credited for emphasis on roleplaying, which is something dialog bring back to the fold, its just that the decisions you make and the kinds of character development it leads to isn't as staggering as they'd like to think. As much as I may dislike Bethesda on the other hand, I can't deny that the Elder Scrolls games are not RPGs in the truest sense.

You have the factions, you many, many directions in which you can build your character, you have the exploration and the lore. I think that's great, I detest their lack of quality testing, but I don't question the intention of the design.

Final Fantasy is all about reinventing itself, but telling a linear story. This again, is fine by me. Final Fantasy would get pretty damn boring if they didn't at least reinvent combat and character growth systems each time around and so that's what they do. Dragon Quest, on the other hand, prides itself on maintaining tradition and being familar, but at least the series has grown in its sense of scope as evidenced by DQVIII

A sense of scope is something Elder Scrolls does well, but I've also found it in FFXI and FFXII along with DQVIII. Its that ability to look back and see how you've grown since the start of your journey.

I remember my first couple of weeks playing FFXI. I started as a humble White Mage of Windurst and as I journeyed from my home nation to the nearest ferry, along the route as I looked out to the see, far off in the distance I could see the Great Star Tree of Windurst, Heaven's Tower. I got a little weepy because I kinda saw it as my character's home and here he goes off to some strange new place called Valkurm Dunes.

And from there, I made new friends and went to the nation of Bastok, then the neighboring nation San'doria, I got to take in all the sights and atmosphere, every corner was full of discovery.

For me, when an RPG lacks that sensibility, it tends to fall short. When the areas I once discovered become empty husks with nothing to fight, there's no reason to go back.

It doesn't have to be a visual level of scope, but a sense that you've come so far, but that the places you've been still matter to varying degrees. I think that's why loved SMT: Nocturne so much as there were still reasons to go back to places.

In fact, I think SMT franchise titles and spin-offs really meet the best sensibilities of Japanese and western RPG designs in the middle. I also think its commendable that Atlus often shows respect for the classic western RPG design in a game like Etrian Odyssey.

Hell, most of Final Fantasy's initial roots are in Dungeons and Dragons, along with Wizardry. Western RPG makers should be flattered Japan is so fond of RPGs and trying to appeal to them, rather than insult them. There are actually Japanese that enjoy western RPGs, too.

[Eggn0g]

I dunno about you guys, but I'd consider Bioware making their devkits avaliable for download and the crapload of user-generated content made for their games as being revolutionary, and should not be ignored.

[Nephlabobo]

Playing Fallout 3 reminds me of exactly why I don't play WRPGs.

Two hours of playing, no progress and six deaths that feel totally random, no matter how I prepare.

Lame as f**k.

[SlaughterX]

Yeah that totally doesn't happen in JRPGs.

[Hamel]

I dunno about you guys, but I'd consider Bioware making their devkits avaliable for download and the crapload of user-generated content made for their games as being revolutionary, and should not be ignored.

Happend in games before that (though not in RPGs I think but that wasnt an excuse to make a sh*t plot for NWN)

[Terash Cas]

I dunno about you guys, but I'd consider Bioware making their devkits avaliable for download and the crapload of user-generated content made for their games as being revolutionary, and should not be ignored.

Happend in games before that (though not in RPGs I think but that wasnt an excuse to make a sh*t plot for NWN)

For a long time... Morrowind has this and was released in 2002.

User made mods for RPGs do not exist for consoles.

[Hamel]

^I wasnt sure if NWN or MW was realesed first so I didnt write that

So even that isnt "revolutionary" as Eggn0g said

[slayn]

Yeah that totally doesn't happen in JRPGs.

It doesn't because they hold your hand right up to the last boss.

[Nephlabobo]

edit- completely uncalled for comment - Kakizaki