Sneaking

[Zorael]

My first character was a Soldier, and I never really understood how important and powerful dodging was, as I started out in plate. Anyway, I found the Thief's Ring due to some helpful messages ("Take a step forward"), and I loved it. I could literally sneak up to an enemy at full run and backstab them. NPCs simply couldn't hear me - they had to see me, or I had to make some other noise to alert them (smash something).

Now on my second character I figured I'd pick Royalty for the spell, and I learned of dodging. But when I got the Thief's Ring, I find I could no longer sneak up on mobs as I had with the plate. What.

Returning to the Nexus I picked up some heavier armor to try it out, and lo and behold, wearing enough heavy armor to stop you from rolling (>50% of max equip weight) actually makes you sound less. Despite it clinking and making generally huge noise.

Is that intended? It seems... counterintuitive.

[LxLgn]

If you have any aura buffs on enemies will see the aura and attack you. So to sneak you really need to remove the fragrant ring, crescent weapons, etc.

You can tell if your buff overrides the thief's ring by looking at your characters feet.

If the thief's ring is working there will be smoke at your feet if it is overridden by something else the smoke will disappear.

[Dominions]

Now on my second character I figured I'd pick Royalty for the spell, and I learned of dodging. But when I got the Thief's Ring, I find I could no longer sneak up on mobs as I had with the plate. What.

Returning to the Nexus I picked up some heavier armor to try it out, and lo and behold, wearing enough heavy armor to stop you from rolling (>50% of max equip weight) actually makes you sound less. Despite it clinking and making generally huge noise.

Is that intended? It seems... counterintuitive.

Maybe the slow "full run" is quieter than the fast one? You can always choose to move a little more slowly if you're sneaking up on enemies unencumbered.

PS your armor never makes noise in Soul form

[Hahalo]

Till today, I have no idea how sneak is calculated for PVE.

As far as I know Full armour gear+large weapon makes sneaking to mob really easy. As in I don't need to slow walk, and just normal run up to the mob to backstab.

[sacallaco]

Now on my second character I figured I'd pick Royalty for the spell, and I learned of dodging.

Royalty starts with a MP aura (ring) which overrides the thief's ring effect

[lordlaurin]

If you have any aura buffs on enemies will see the aura and attack you. So to sneak you really need to remove the fragrant ring, crescent weapons, etc.

You can tell if your buff overrides the thief's ring by looking at your characters feet.

If the thief's ring is working there will be smoke at your feet if it is overridden by something else the smoke will disappear.

Now I know why that smokes disappears sometimes, thanks! :) You can still see that fog icon under your stamina bar so maybe the thief effect is not completely lost?

[Dominions]

If you have any aura buffs on enemies will see the aura and attack you. So to sneak you really need to remove the fragrant ring, crescent weapons, etc.

You can tell if your buff overrides the thief's ring by looking at your characters feet.

If the thief's ring is working there will be smoke at your feet if it is overridden by something else the smoke will disappear.

Now I know why that smokes disappears sometimes, thanks! :) You can still see that fog icon under your stamina bar so maybe the thief effect is not completely lost?

I've seen lots of players in PvP who were totally invisible except for some buff or aura they had active. So I think the fog status is working, but the smoke might be a sign that you're actually good to go. Sometimes auras can be hard to spot when your character's in Soul form.

[FiOth]

When running with heavy armor you actually move slower than if you wore something light. So, your running with Full Plate is the same as jogging in, lets say, Black Leather.

Aura effects cause your stealth to break as well.

Hope this helps.

PS. Nice thread, clears the whole matter up for anyone who reads what everyone has contributed in it. ;)

[Wolfram]

I didn't know an aura would break stealth, that's very good to know. Does thief ring and cloak spell stack up?

[FiOth]

I didn't know an aura would break stealth, that's very good to know. Does thief ring and cloak spell stack up?

Yes Wolfram, they do.

[lordlaurin]

I just noticed that the smoke at my feet does not disappear if I use Second Chance which also creates some kind of aura. Does that mean that other players cannot see this aura in PvP if I use Thief's Ring? :confused:

[Dominions]

I just noticed that the smoke at my feet does not disappear if I use Second Chance which also creates some kind of aura. Does that mean that other players cannot see this aura in PvP if I use Thief's Ring? :confused:

I'm confused now too... I don't think I've ever seen a second-chance aura in PvP, but I don't see a lot of stealthers either. I guess I can put my neck on the line and stack Thief's Ring, Cloak, and Second Chance then see if people spot me or not.

[Wolfram]

I'm not sure SC works when you get summoned/invade. I was a BluP the other day and couldn't cast SC but it's worth trying lol

[FiOth]

I'm not sure SC works when you get summoned/invade. I was a BluP the other day and couldn't cast SC but it's worth trying lol

It works perfectly well, it does not stuck with other casted effects like Warding or Water Veil. You can only have one spell active on your person.

[Tyroie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I think is true:

1) Thief's ring and Hide and other sneaky things DO stack with spells like warding and second chance. However, the shiney auras that warding and second chance create will still be visible to other players even while you're hidden - they will not be visible to NPC demons however.

2) When you're in soul form, you have a slight permanent Hide effect on you at all times. So when you're alive, enemies attack you from farther away.

[lordlaurin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I think is true:

1) Thief's ring and Hide and other sneaky things DO stack with spells like warding and second chance. However, the shiney auras that warding and second chance create will still be visible to other players even while you're hidden - they will not be visible to NPC demons however.

2) When you're in soul form, you have a slight permanent Hide effect on you at all times. So when you're alive, enemies attack you from farther away.

1) Do you know if that is true for all auras? I'd really like to know if others can see my Second Chance aura in PvP. This one does not disable the smoke effect at your feet while other auras do. :question:

2) I don't know if that is also true for PvP. I can always see blue phantoms from far away if they don't use any stealth equipment, e.g. thief's ring.

[FiOth]

Being in Soul Form is technically different than being a Blue Phantom lordlaurin.

[Karkarov]

This is how it works...

Auras: Uh no, NPC mobs don't give a flip what aura you have up it makes no difference to them. This is purely a pvp thing and honestly buggy in my opinion.

Armor: Everyone who says they sneak and do full runs just as well in plate as in cloth armors also turns out to be playing in spirit form just about all the time. I will say why that matters in a second but first.... yes heavy armor makes it harder to sneak. The lighter your armor the more likely you can get away with it, also it is worth noting your armors "type" (plate, leather, cloth etc) is determined solely by what armor you have on your chest. In other words you can wear a black leather chest and fluted boots yet still move quietly like you were wearing leather boots.

Spirit Form: In spirit form you make no sound from moving so your armor basically becomes silent and at this point it doesn't matter what you are wearing it should be easy to sneak up on a number of mobs.

Mobs: Lastly there are some mobs (rare but they exist) that you simply will not sneak up on I don't care what you try. For whatever reason they will always spot you due to positioning or perhaps scripting. For example the first blue eye knight in 1-1 who stands in front of the second fog. No matter how you approach he will always turn to face you right as you get near him even if you have no armor on in spirit form with the theif ring equipped.

Rings: The Theif's Ring is the only ring that effects everything. The Graverobbers can be "double stacked" with it but it only effects BP players and mobs. So basically it is possible to double stack stealth on a BP or invader but regular mobs will only ever be effected by one buff. Some people claim to be able to cast the standard stealth buff while the Theif's Ring is on to double stack normal stealth but I have never had a reason to try so I can't say.

[Dominions]

Rings: The Theif's Ring is the only ring that effects everything. The Graverobbers can be "double stacked" with it but it only effects BP players and mobs. So basically it is possible to double stack stealth on a BP or invader but regular mobs will only ever be effected by one buff. Some people claim to be able to cast the standard stealth buff while the Theif's Ring is on to double stack normal stealth but I have never had a reason to try so I can't say.

Cloak and Thief Ring do work together, Thief Ring alone will alert enemies just as you get you into lock-on range. Stacking the spells lets you get noticably closer.

I think the anti-BP stuff is more effective, status-for-status, than general-purpose stealth.

[Zorael]

If you have any aura buffs on enemies will see the aura and attack you. So to sneak you really need to remove the fragrant ring, crescent weapons, etc.
Royalty starts with a MP aura (ring) which overrides the thief's ring effect
Armor: Everyone who says they sneak and do full runs just as well in plate as in cloth armors also turns out to be playing in spirit form just about all the time. I will say why that matters in a second but first.... yes heavy armor makes it harder to sneak. The lighter your armor the more likely you can get away with it, also it is worth noting your armors "type" (plate, leather, cloth etc) is determined solely by what armor you have on your chest. In other words you can wear a black leather chest and fluted boots yet still move quietly like you were wearing leather boots.

Spirit Form: In spirit form you make no sound from moving so your armor basically becomes silent and at this point it doesn't matter what you are wearing it should be easy to sneak up on a number of mobs.
A player in Soul Form with the Thief's Ring, and encumbered to the point where you can no longer roll, can run (not sprint) up to a standard mob from behind without it noticing until you're tapping/stabbing its back. If the same player merely removes his armor, the mob will now react and turn around when he gets close, necessitating walking if you want to backstab. As such, as long as you're out of the mobs' line of sight, wearing heavy armor makes sneaking easier. "Sneaking", as in "staying undetected", not walking.

I don't know why this is, but it seems to be. Try picking up some Brushwood from your vault and wear it to make yourself slow. Remove all "aura" stuff if you think that'll affect the outcome, then head to 1-3. Run up to the blue knight behind you and backstab him, then reset the level by dying or by returning to the Nexus.

Unequip your armor and try to do the same thing. He'll turn around before you can land the stab.

:confused:

[Karkarov]

Zorael I have tested the hell out of it, trust me. Like I said key is your chest armor it is the only piece that counts. Also if you are going for a backstab you should always either walk or RUN up. The mid level thing is more like jogging. If you run and you know how to time it you will get off the stab as they turn, walking works best but... you are walking real slow...

[Hahalo]

The set really depends,

I've trying backstabing those purple goblin fella in 5-3, and get spotted single hand, and no problem jogging up dual hand.. with same eq set.

On the other hand, I've no problem jogging up to soul sucked that black phantom skeleton dude on 4-2, and that 2 black phantom golden skel. If I remember correctly I'm using thief ring, ring of increase magic capacity, bronze armour set, large sword of searching, silver catalyst. (Pass 50% equip weight)

My conclusion is, there is no precise way of measuring backstab on PVE. It's influence by various factors as listed by all the above post.

[Dominions]

Zorael I have tested the hell out of it, trust me. Like I said key is your chest armor it is the only piece that counts. Also if you are going for a backstab you should always either walk or RUN up. The mid level thing is more like jogging. If you run and you know how to time it you will get off the stab as they turn, walking works best but... you are walking real slow...

I had way more trouble sneaking wearing Old King breastplate than I did with Leather Armor. That's the only piece I changed, going from having Octopus guards come wandering over to attack me around corners and stuff vs. them turning around and walking away so I could sprint at them for a backstab.

Also I've been sneaking successfully with Fragrant Ring, I really don't think that any aura except for cloak, thief's ring, and ring of the accused has an effect on being detected by regular monsters.

[Zorael]

Zorael I have tested the hell out of it, trust me. Like I said key is your chest armor it is the only piece that counts. Also if you are going for a backstab you should always either walk or RUN up. The mid level thing is more like jogging. If you run and you know how to time it you will get off the stab as they turn, walking works best but... you are walking real slow...
Just to make sure our terminology matches, I think of the three levels as walking, running and sprinting. Could you elaborate about the chest piece deal?

(The following scenarios assume soul form.)
If I wear the Thief ring, no armor at all and a non-magic weapon (Quality Mirdan Hammer), I cannot run (jog) up to the blue knight behind the 1-3 stone without him turning. Before I get to his back, he will hear me, turn around, and engage me. With this equipment, I am not encumbered (<50%).
If I wear the Thief ring, no chest armor, but Brushwood helm/gloves/legs, I can run (jog) up to the blue knight without him turning. He won't hear me, so I can really do a full run (not sprint) and backstab him with considerable ease and impunity. With this equipment, I am encumbered (>50%).
If I wear the Thief ring, Brushwood chest armor and no other armor pieces, I get the same result as above. With this equipment, I am encumbered (>50%).

The only pattern I see is that as soon as you're encumbered and cannot roll, your normal run (jog) speed is slow enough that you can run up to a mob from behind without him hearing you approach at all. Regardless of what kind of chest armor I was wearing, or if wearing one at all.

[Wolfram]

Zorael I have tested the hell out of it, trust me. Like I said key is your chest armor it is the only piece that counts. Also if you are going for a backstab you should always either walk or RUN up. The mid level thing is more like jogging. If you run and you know how to time it you will get off the stab as they turn, walking works best but... you are walking real slow...
Just to make sure our terminology matches, I think of the three levels as walking, running and sprinting. Could you elaborate about the chest piece deal?

(The following scenarios assume soul form.)
If I wear the Thief ring, no armor at all and a non-magic weapon (Quality Mirdan Hammer), I cannot run (jog) up to the blue knight behind the 1-3 stone without him turning. Before I get to his back, he will hear me, turn around, and engage me. With this equipment, I am not encumbered (<50%).
If I wear the Thief ring, no chest armor, but Brushwood helm/gloves/legs, I can run (jog) up to the blue knight without him turning. He won't hear me, so I can really do a full run (not sprint) and backstab him with considerable ease and impunity. With this equipment, I am encumbered (>50%).
If I wear the Thief ring, Brushwood chest armor and no other armor pieces, I get the same result as above. With this equipment, I am encumbered (>50%).

The only pattern I see is that as soon as you're encumbered and cannot roll, your normal run (jog) speed is slow enough that you can run up to a mob from behind without him hearing you approach at all. Regardless of what kind of chest armor I was wearing, or if wearing one at all.

Well that just implies that your speed is the main deciding factor... faster you go the louder you are. I think that the armor you wear is only a deciding factor in noise level if you're in body form, so in soul form it's more just about your sneakyness.

[Zorael]

Well that just implies that your speed is the main deciding factor... faster you go the louder you are. I think that the armor you wear is only a deciding factor in noise level if you're in body form, so in soul form it's more just about your sneakyness.
So by extension, assuming Soul Form, it's easier to sneak around with heavy armor. :<

[Karkarov]

Ok let me rephrase the main points that my stupid long time I spent testing taught me.

1: Soul form makes armor soundless so it doesn't matter what you wear in soul form you will make no sound. So please if you are testing gear for sneaking in soul form, stop it, your test is meaningless.

2: Only the chest slot matters. You can be in body form wearing all brushwood with a leather chest and you will make sound as if you were wearing all leather.

3: Levels of movement are walk, jog, and run/sprint. Run means you are holding down X and gunning it, not just moving forward. Walk is you barely moving the thumbstick and ..... walking... Jogging is simply moving in whatever direction at normal speed.

4: Encumbrance makes you move slower past 50% so yes if you are moving slower so you obviously generate less "presence" for lack of a better term.

5: Theif's Ring, I assume you are wearing it because if you aren't you won't be sneaking up on anything except for stupid slow moving things like octopus heads. Even then it still probably won't work unless you are soul form. So long story short, wear it if you intend to try sneaking.

6: Aura's have no effect on NPC's, the end. It is probably even a glitch that pc's can see them at range.

7: Unencumbered with a thief's ring wearing whatever I chose (done it in chain, fluted, and plate) plus a black leather shirt I have successfully RAN up to enemies from behind and done backstabs before they turned far enough. This list includes blue eye and red eye knights, soldiers, octopus heads, scale miners, the multi faced scorpion things (even though you can't backstab them), depraved ones, etc etc. Using the exact same set ups except now say a chain or heavier shirt instead the same mob will always turn well before I reach backstab range. Note some mobs are just dumb or maybe really really slow like Octopus heads and depraved ones.

8: Walking will normally succeed regardless in body form (especially effective in soul form) as long as you have the ring on and stay directly behind the target.

9: Lastly again some mobs can not be surprised I don't care what your set up is or what you try it isn't happening. The easiest to find example is the blue eye knight in front of the second fog in 1-1. There are also a number of spots in the game where you can sneak up on one mob but it becomes very hard to not be noticed by other mobs nearby. Remember mobs are communicating, if mob B sees you as you sneak up on mob A even though mob A doesn't detect you he will react as if he does because mob B does see you.

[Zorael]

1: Soul form makes armor soundless so it doesn't matter what you wear in soul form you will make no sound. So please if you are testing gear for sneaking in soul form, stop it, your test is meaningless.
The premise for the whole thread was the fact that being light on your feet makes it harder to sneak in soul form. The class of the armor itself was beside the point, the sole factor being the boolean encumbered/not encumbered. The tests could just as easily have been about being naked and quad-wielding Dragon Bone Smashers. To which end they have meaning.

[Karkarov]

Actually what weapons you are using has no bearing on it whatsoever. As for moving faster making you easier to spot.... uh well that is sort of common sense. I am not sure how making a point of that is supposed to be surprsing or even worth making a point over?

[Zorael]

What weapons you use do have meaning if they add weight, which surely four Dragon Smashers do. You pay too much attention to the aura discussion. And being easier to hear if wearing less armor does certainly not fall under common sense; I called it counterintuitive in the opening post. If all movement sounds are removed when in Soul form, then it's fairly selective to ignore the speed component of it, wouldn't you agree?

You're most welcome to abstain if you feel the matter is "not worth making a point over."