Anybody here buys piracy games??

[Otono Kakuei]

Hi I am a newbie here... Just wanted to ask whether one of you guys have ever bought a not *original* game... Have anyone ever succeeded in making a copy of a blu-ray??

Just being curious


----------------------------------------
Sorry if this thread was suppose to be an off-topic thread...

[nbinney]

I bought Warioware for GBA only to find out it was a bootleg :-(

But now I know not to buy American games from eBay accounts located in China...

[nbinney]

but no, I never have and never will knowingly pay for a bootleg of anything.

In before lock, for once.

[Enzeru]

...All the time...

But seriously, hasn't happened to me...yet (although I do have a fake memory stick...How do they even make these things?). DUN DUN DUN!

[Otono Kakuei]

Yeah.. that's what i want to say... How do they make these kind of things??
With a lower budget, but almost the same quality... I'd say "WoW"...
But, like I've asked earlier, is there a way to make a copy out of blu-ray?? Well to me the price of blu-rays is just way out of my league... Even though there's so much games that I want to but... T_T

[Crow T. Robot]

On purpose?
No

On accident?
Not yet

[Gen Eric Gui]

I accidentally bought a Chinese bootleg of the Tales of Eternia anime. Should have been suspicious when I found a single version that had English subtitles, but eh, hindsight is 20/20. Turned out ok though, because the subtitles were so deliciously bad they made a mediocre anime amazing.

I've also been told that my copy of the Suikoden 2 OST is a bootleg, but it was sold in an official store and it looks like the regular edition...so I don't really know if it is or not.

[Onion of Mystery]

If anybody here does admit to willingly buying pirated games, they're outta here. The same goes for information about how to pirate games. So, sorry, Otono Kakuei, you're not going to get an answer here.

[Otono Kakuei]

Yeah... I'm sorry for asking such a stupid question...

[Hamel]

I accidently bought some bootleg anime but not games

[AdrianMorales]

Argh! There be no pirates here.

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/pirate-9.jpg

[System_Error]

I love Pirate games, they need to make an RPG where you play as a Pirate and fight demons.

[Yet Another Tim]

I love Pirate games, they need to make an RPG where you play as a Pirate and fight ninjas.

Fixed.

No, I refuse to participate in piracy, to the point that I insist in my imports being sold in reputable shops like NCSX (I got the Japan-only Steal Princess Drama CD pre-order bonus from them), Japan Video Games, Himeya Shop, to name a few.

It's also the same reason why I DO NOT have an R4, which my little brother has.

[AbsyntheDelacroix]

A friend of mine once bought a copy of Pokémon Ruby. It was branded "Nintondo", but aside from that, it worked perfectly. I don't know if that's the case, probably it is.

[Saburo Hikari]

I've never even considered buying pirated games. I love the feeling of holding the box of my favorite games, thank you very much.

[Crabman]

...All the time...

But seriously, hasn't happened to me...yet (although I do have a fake memory stick...How do they even make these things?). DUN DUN DUN!

Happened to me too! Luckily, I got my money back :)

[Macheath]

Piracy is a good way to kill any industry, so no, I refuse to buy pirated games. Fortunately, I haven't been tricked into buying a bootleg.

[marche1990]

not really, even when the economy in my country and the distribution of some games here really sucks (only in one store I managed to find a copy of Persona in two states, go figures Dx!)
the money is the main reason of why I don't have more than two games for my wii.... T.T

[littlefuzzy1]

Vintage Stock is a great place to find games and movies, unfortunately they seem to have a policy of selling new bootleg stuff (anime DVDs and soundtracks, Asian DVDs, etc.)

I've mentioned it several times, and the clerks are all "huh?" :confused: "They were bought from our distributor, so they can't be bootlegs!"

[Chie_fan]

Never did such a thing and refuse myself to ever do.
Piracy is always awfull and especially when you steal from amazing developers/ publishers that do all for their fans( like Atlus :p).

[Steel Greyfalke]

I Bought one by accident when I was younger, It was a bootleg for SRT Link battler although i have the ACTUAL game , the bootleg actuallly makes me laugh at the fact of atttemping to make a game cheaper,

[Zachalmighty]

I'm sure Indonesia being so close to China has its fair share of bootlegging privateers.

[nbinney]

A friend of mine once bought a copy of Pokémon Ruby. It was branded "Nintondo", but aside from that, it worked perfectly. I don't know if that's the case, probably it is.

Nintondo is one of the dead givaways. The label artwork tends to be different too. Also if you open the cart up the circuitboard WONT say (c)Nintendo and in the case of my Warioware there will be wires going everywhere.

[Fuyukaze]

I've found a few genesis pirate carts at local flea markets but I refused to pay $20 for a mario sprite hacked genesis game. If the guy was selling em for $5 I'd have been all over them just for the sheer laughs. The artwork was horrid! As far as non retarded looking pirates, I refuse to buy them. Sure, I want games but I'll be damned if I support those who steal from the people that bring me what I want. I mostly find loose GBA pirates at game stop and gamecrazy these days. The labels are rater obvious in how fake they are though.

[Rednusander]

This thread is like Darwinism in action. Every time I'm tempted to close it to save you all from yourselves, I stop, because I just keep wanting to see if someone's actually going to come into it, not read Onion's post, and post about their illegal activities only to get eradicated from our forums forever...

I just can't close the book on science!

[NullPointer]

http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg

[Olethros]

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9720/barackbar.jpg (http://img203.imageshack.us/i/barackbar.jpg/)

[Terash Cas]

Too paranoid to buy cartridge based games because of bootlegs why would I even want to buy them om purpose?

[kat_ears_kahrain]

I buy piracy games.

Sid Meier's Pirates! for the original XBox is a fun one. I never played the original, and I like(d) to play the XBox version from time to time. (before my XBox gave up the ghost)

Running a pirate like civilization in Civilization is pretty fun too.

[nbinney]

My name is Guybrush Threepwood and I want to be a pirate.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k202/bshirk/TheSecretofMonkeyIslandGuybrush.jpg

[jeffx]

http://www.acorscadden.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/tarp-30198.jpg

[Cloud737]

Dang, I was almost gonna post the story of my life, but then I saw Onion's post and that the thread got derailed to something else... :P

Sorry for being a bit off-topic, but isn't it a bit unfair to ban users to "admitting" (as if that's even proof that he's done it) to buy pirated games? I understand about information about how to pirate games, but isn't it kinda unfair (so I wouldn't say "draconian"), not to mention disillusionment, to go beyond that? It's not like you can keep people from finding out about piracy if you shut out soft-discussions (i.e.: not asking for specific methods or sites on piracy, but just things in general, like this discussion) about it and ban people from your forum, even if this is what other game companies do out of preconception, without ever giving it a thought.

[Karkarov]

To put it in simple terms Cloud pirating is theft. You are stealing from the people who worked and invested money into the product. If you knowingly pirate an item to me that makes you morally bankrupt and right up there with a guy who would smack an old lady with a baseball bat to steal her purse.

So, no, they are not "being draconian" they are standing up for their rights as a producer of a product that is being demeaned and degraded by pirates and the cheap jerk offs with no moral fiber who buy from them. Banning them from the forum is the least of what they deserve. People who knowingly pirate things deserve to be arressted for theft, sued, and have a large amount of thier property and or money removed and given back to the people who they stole from. Thats what you do to a thief.

Remember the commandment says "Thou shall not steal." Not "Thall shall not steal, unless these extenuating circumstances are present then it is actually ok."

[Steel Greyfalke]

To put it in simple terms Cloud pirating is theft. You are stealing from the people who worked and invested money into the product. If you knowingly pirate an item to me that makes you morally bankrupt and right up there with a guy who would smack an old lady with a baseball bat to steal her purse.

So, no, they are not "being draconian" they are standing up for their rights as a producer of a product that is being demeaned and degraded by pirates and the cheap jerk offs with no moral fiber who buy from them. Banning them from the forum is the least of what they deserve. People who knowingly pirate things deserve to be arressted for theft, sued, and have a large amount of thier property and or money removed and given back to the people who they stole from. Thats what you do to a thief.

Remember the commandment says "Thou shall not steal." Not "Thall shall not steal, unless these extenuating circumstances are present then it is actually ok."

but what if i puchased a pirated game by accident at a young age?

[Cloud737]

Please, I know what pirating is. No need to go around explaining.
My question was why is it against the rules to say that you are a pirate. Saying isn't the same as being. Heck, I could say I'm Napoleon, but... well, let's see who believes that...
I don't see how Atlus is standing up for their rights by banning users who just say they are pirates. It's not like that would stop them from pirating, and you could even wind up banning users who lied through their teeth to be able brag.

However, since you started this discussion, I'll throw in my opinions a bit as well.
First, pirating isn't really necessarily stealing. I know common sense and popular preconceptions say it is, but it isn't necessarily always stealing in some perspective. Some people, for example, "pirate" games to try them out before buying. Not every game has demo versions (e.g.: PS2, DS), and even when they do, the final game might be substantially different than the demo (what prevents developers from "lying" about their game and only put their best stage in the demo, while all other stages in the full game are horrible).
Practically, that can't account for a lost sale because most people in that category buy the game after they tried it out.

Second, there are (populated) countries in this world where the economy isn't really on par with the US' (yes, they really do exist). What would you expect from these people when a game is 1/3 or even 1/2 of their salary? I know you're gonna say "then don't buy/get games at all", but think of it in business perspectives: the companies whose games are pirated wouldn't have gotten their money either way, so what's the harm in the end?

Third, there are pirates who just wouldn't buy the original games at all, ever, even if those couldn't be pirated. These are the people who wouldn't ever be forced to buy the real game.

Companies' worst enemy are not the type of pirates described above (which probably make up the majority of the pirate population), because those types wouldn't have paid these companies either way, or actually pay the companies regardless.

The real problem with piracy is with the casual pirates. These are the types that would pirate if it was easy and knew how (which, IMO, and I accept opinions and arguments here, might make up most of the gamers and "honest" people themselves).

And if you want to throw some philosophy into this discussion as well, let's remember that stealing is part, more or less, of everyone's life, and it's all been done even on larger scales before. The Russians stole all they could find in the Eastern Europe countries they went through on their way to the Germans (and back!), companies try to steal from consumers and other companies as much as they can if there's little chance of suffering any consequences, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Do you see anyone nowadays blaming them or punishing them to the full extent of their crime (if at all)? Aren't these cases also covered by the "Thou shall not steal" commandment?

Companies only stand up for their rights because it is profitable. While I agree that they have every right to do that, please try to observe the other perspective to that phrase: companies don't do what's right because it's right, but because it's profitable. That also applies to doing things that are wrong: companies do things that are wrong because it's profitable (or at least seems to be, at first).
If they could, companies would really love to ban used game sales, too, probably more so than piracy, because that's an even bigger "hole" in their pockets than piracy. People who don't pirate (or fall in the casual pirates category) can very well and will buy used games, even in large quantities (as in being pretty substantial compared to the new games market), generating huge losses for the company (you don't pay game companies directly nor indirectly for used games), especially since those are people who would actually pay to have those products.

Also, why are pirates, who were medieval thieves on the high sea long ago, being praised and glorified in video games now? Why are they treated like glorified legends while pirates on the internet today are treated like dirty scumbags?

This is not to say that I support stealing from companies and never paying for games and software (if everyone would do this, they will go bankrupt, of course, though I seriously doubt that would be the end of video games - people in need of money will always adapt to the market, even to the point of offering free games riddled with ads to make a profit, though I agree the quality might be suffering there, at least in the first years of this new business model, till the companies realize better quality means more players means more add views means more money), but just that piracy isn't that simple as the (IMO stupid) preconception of "a dirty scumbag stealing from that poor company a game worth all it's money".

Also, hope my message didn't offend you. I just offered my own opinions on this subject, it wasn't really meant as an attack towards you or your opinions.

Now, mind someone telling me why just saying you're a pirate (without actually proving it) is against the rules?

[kat_ears_kahrain]

Now, mind someone telling me why just saying you're a pirate (without actually proving it) is against the rules?

Because it's a private forum where the rules are set by the owners, who can choose to restrict discussion on anything they want.

If they wanted to ban a person for using a cute white haired cat girl pretending to be the Lich King as an avatar, they have the right to do that.

<_< um... I do hope they don't ban me for my avatar...

[Fatney]

Just a little note about piracy: I feel good about supporting the developer by spending money on their games (except if it's some crappy DLC or something), but I have to admit I tend to download some PC games now and then. The reason being the really high prices where I live. The tax makes every game about 25% more expensive than they should be (maybe more than 25% even), and I don't want to miss out on some really good games just because I can't afford them. Also, it's almost funny how producers complain about piracy, while it never seems like they even consider that it's because of the price. They could cut the price on their games (especially on downloadable stuff) or protest against the extra fee taxes adds.

[Rednusander]

Cloud737, you can dance around the issue with your philosophies all you want, but the bottom line is this:

If you obtain a retail product, be it a game, a song, a movie, whatever, and there was no transaction of money for the acquired product within a reasonable degree of separation, you're pirating.

Why do we ban pirates on sheer admonition? Well, we make products that are prone to piracy, and we're not going to associate with those would admit to stealing ours or any other media company's products. It's that simple.

And if "saying" isn't the same as being, to take an extreme case, saying you're a murderer on a cop forum, whether or not you've actually murdered, is probably still gonna get you banned. =P

[Manly Biceps]

http://www.acorscadden.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/tarp-30198.jpg

I love this picture. :)

[Cloud737]

Now, mind someone telling me why just saying you're a pirate (without actually proving it) is against the rules?

Because it's a private forum where the rules are set by the owners, who can choose to restrict discussion on anything they want.

If they wanted to ban a person for using a cute white haired cat girl pretending to be the Lich King as an avatar, they have the right to do that.

<_< um... I do hope they don't ban me for my avatar...
Well, yeah, I know that's the reason from a restricted/shallow perspective point of view. I was expecting more of a moral type of explanation of why they've done it (i.e.: because the laws force us, because it does actual harm to the industry because X and Y, etc.).
Well, to be honest, I'm not really expecting an answer there. I already know what the answer is ("because we can do whatever we want here and we want to do this because of our unquestioned preconceptions towards piracy"). It was more of a rhetorical question...

Cute avatar, by the way. :D

Also, it's almost funny how producers complain about piracy, while it never seems like they even consider that it's because of the price.
Not to mention the companies themselves engage in piracy with each other (http://www.v3.co.uk/vnunet/news/2118681/microsoft-convicted-software-piracy). How ironic. :P
And then they expect us to be good, honest lads... :P

Cloud737, you can dance around the issue with your philosophies all you want, but the bottom line is this:

If you obtain a retail product, be it a game, a song, a movie, whatever, and there was no transaction of money for the acquired product within a reasonable degree of separation, you're pirating.

Why do we ban pirates on sheer admonition? Well, we make products that are prone to piracy, and we're not going to associate with those would admit to stealing ours or any other media company's products. It's that simple.
You see here, piracy doesn't equal stealing all the time (maybe most of the time, yeah). Is it stealing if the pirate actually bought 90% of the games he tried out first before buying? (And don't tell me "yes, because if he didn't pirate he'd buy have two copies", please)

Anyway, I wasn't dancing around the issue with my philosophies just to point out that your actions are wrong. I was doing this because Karkarov made some claims and presented some opinions that weren't really proven to be true (as in piracy always means a sale lost), so to some extent they could be viewed as philosophies. To be more specific: that comment wasn't actually directed at you, but Karkarov. Only the question about why is it against the rules was directed at you, and thank you for answering that.

But anyway, I understand what you're saying. Basically, it's the same answer I expected, which I listed at the beginning of this post: because that's how you want it because of your ideas/preconceptions.
Still, thanks for the answer! I wasn't really expecting one.

And if "saying" isn't the same as being, to take an extreme case, saying you're a murderer on a cop forum, whether or not you've actually murdered, is probably still gonna get you banned. =P
I doubt it. I really doubt it. First things first, people will probably treat that as a joke (and it even kinda works for April Fools). Without proof, you're nothing more than an annoyance, at worst, to the forum.
Second, I doubt you'd be banned since they have a better chance at catching you by trying to extract any information from you while you're happy to brag about your dirty deeds than by banning you and then trying to get leads from the evidence.

After they catch you (or annoyed them enough), sure, they'd ban you, just so they can feel better. :P

[slayn]

You see here, piracy doesn't equal stealing all the time (maybe most of the time, yeah). Is it stealing if the pirate actually bought 90% of the games he tried out first before buying? (And don't tell me "yes, because if he didn't pirate he'd buy have two copies", please)


Yes it's still stealing. In your example, the pirate still stole 10% of the games he pirated, so that makes it stealing. Hell, even if he bought 100% of the games, he's still a thief. You can't rob a bank then return all the money and expect to get away with it.

[kat_ears_kahrain]

You see here, piracy doesn't equal stealing all the time (maybe most of the time, yeah). Is it stealing if the pirate actually bought 90% of the games he tried out first before buying? (And don't tell me "yes, because if he didn't pirate he'd buy have two copies", please)


Yes it's still stealing. In your example, the pirate still stole 10% of the games he pirated, so that makes it stealing. Hell, even if he bought 100% of the games, he's still a thief. You can't rob a bank then return all the money and expect to get away with it.

Wait... you can't return the money and have a laugh over a few beers? Crud... there goes my 2010 drunken April fool's joke. Need a new drunken joke. If only there was a place where people gathered to drink alcohol and converse. Oh well.

Arguing about the issue won't have it changed. Stop now while you're ahead, I say.

[Olethros]

Come on guys, can't we all just get along? :grouphug:

[Kakizaki]

Second, there are (populated) countries in this world where the economy isn't really on par with the US' (yes, they really do exist). What would you expect from these people when a game is 1/3 or even 1/2 of their salary? I know you're gonna say "then don't buy/get games at all", but think of it in business perspectives: the companies whose games are pirated wouldn't have gotten their money either way, so what's the harm in the end?I have always hated, hated, hated this rationale. Before throwing around the term 'misconception' at others in this thread, I think you need to work through a few of your own. I'm a grad student in the U.S.. I go to school full time, work, and I have trouble making ends meet. I would love to be able to buy more games, but I simply cannot afford to do so. What do I do? Pirate? No, I do the unthinkable and go without buying games or pirating games. Gasp!

You also seem to be implying only those that don't have the financial means to buy games legitimately, are those that are pirating games. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Anyway, if things are so tight, video games should be an afterthought.

[slayn]

Come on guys, can't we all just get along? :grouphug:

Take your medicine, old man!

[Steel Greyfalke]

http://www.acorscadden.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/tarp-30198.jpg

I love this picture. :)

So do I & this helps with picking the right car

[Cloud737]

You see here, piracy doesn't equal stealing all the time (maybe most of the time, yeah). Is it stealing if the pirate actually bought 90% of the games he tried out first before buying? (And don't tell me "yes, because if he didn't pirate he'd buy have two copies", please)


Yes it's still stealing. In your example, the pirate still stole 10% of the games he pirated, so that makes it stealing. Hell, even if he bought 100% of the games, he's still a thief. You can't rob a bank then return all the money and expect to get away with it.
I get what you're saying. And I think you get mine, too.
You're talking from a moral point of view, and I'm talking from a pragmatic-moral point of view (with a bit more emphasize on pragmatism).
From the business perspective, those 10% of games the pirate doesn't buy might as well not have been bought even if the pirate couldn't get them for free. Not to mention that in some cases, piracy might actually determine someone to buy more games than the person normally would (because he can try more games instead of just going safe with only a few that he'd buy nevertheless).

From a pure, conventional moral point of view, yes, it's still stealing. However, nothing is as simple and straightforward in this world. Even morals came to be because of pragmatism (that is, it came to be because it was beneficial for the whole community).
We can argue about pure, conventional morals all we like, but if it doesn't reflect reality or are practical, what's the use? See this article about Microsoft having to support pirates (http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/484) to understand a bit about what I mean.

Anyway, those are my opinions and perspective. You are free to have other opinions, of course. I suggest we close this topic, if you'd like. I already made the 7 posts necessary to start a thread (see my sig for the thread in question; I would really appreciate some support :D). :P

I have always hated, hated, hated this rationale. Before throwing around the term 'misconception' at others in this thread, I think you need to work through a few of your own. I'm a grad student in the U.S.. I go to school full time, work, and I have trouble making ends meet. I would love to be able to buy more games, but I simply cannot afford to do so. What do I do? Pirate? No, I do the unthinkable and go without buying games or pirating games. Gasp!

You also seem to be implying only those that don't have the financial means to buy games legitimately, are those that are pirating games. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Anyway, if things are so tight, video games should be an afterthought.
I can understand what you're saying, and I agree with you, like I agreed above, that from a pure moral point of view, it's wrong.
However, I like to view the matter from a pragmatic-moral point of view, from the business perspective.
See my reply to slayn above to understand what I mean.

In your case, the companies whose games you won't buy won't be getting that money regardless of you pirating or not. If I were to look from their perspective, no additional revenue would be made, at least at that time, if you didn't pirate them. So what's the use then? Of course, that's not how companies normally think...

And no, I'm not implying those are the only ones that are pirating games. I also talked quite a bit about the "casual pirates" in my posts above. Those that would otherwise buy the game if they couldn't pirate it. IMO, those make up a minority group of pirates, but a majority of people who buy the games. Those are companies' biggest problem.

Let's face it, how many people live in the US, EU and Japan, and how many of those actually are financially well? How many people outside those countries/unions are there? How many of them are poor (considering that most, if not all other countries have weaker economies)?
China alone contributes a great deal to the piracy population on the internet.

And then of course there are the stubborn, die-hard pirates that just wouldn't buy the game regardless of the fact that they can financially and that the game can't be pirated. IMO, these aren't as numerous as the "poor pirates" category above, but are much more numerous than the "casual pirates".

And if things are tight, of course video games should be an afterthought... unless, of course, you can get them for free. :P That's why I think these group of pirates won't buy the game regardless of being able to pirate it or not.
I guess that must be the rationale for most pirates in poor countries. :P

[Iris]

Third, there are pirates who just wouldn't buy the original games at all, ever, even if those couldn't be pirated. These are the people who wouldn't ever be forced to buy the real game.

If they wouldn't buy it at all, no matter what, then it's surely no great hardship for them to live with not playing it.

Video games are a luxury, not a necessity.

[Kakizaki]

In your case, the companies whose games you won't buy won't be getting that money regardless of you pirating or not. If I were to look from their perspective, no additional revenue would be made, at least at that time, if you didn't pirate them. So what's the use then? Of course, that's not how companies normally think...

This has to be one of the most irrational lines of thought I have encountered here in quite a while.

I cannot afford what I still want. Once I have saved enough through careful budgeting, I still intend to purchase what I want when I can finally afford it. While it is true that a company may not be getting my money immediately or possibly ever, that does not personally justify stealing.

I can't afford an Acura NSX, but that doesn't mean that since I won't be purchasing one and Acura won't be receiving my money, that I am justified in stealing one.

You spend a lot of time attempting to tear down the morality behind a company's right to be profitable, but you need to work harder on justifying how this is ethical from an individual's standpoint.

China alone contributes a great deal to the piracy population on the internet.

Yes they do, and I would argue this has significantly less to do with income and more to do with poor policy/law regarding protecting copyrights mixed with pure politics.

A native Chinese professor of mine was just talking about the quality of Japanese goods versus U.S. goods during the 1970s/80s. His example regarded his family purchasing a Toshiba refrigerator during the 1970s. I'm sorry, but if a family can afford something like that, things aren't too bad.

Using China is a poor example. I won't deny that per capita GNP is higher in the U.S. and Japan, but aside form a few dips here and there, overall GNP has been on the increase in China since the PRC was established, even during the Cultural Revolution. Since economic reform began in the late 1970s, things have improved significantly in China in regards to expendable income. Using income comparasons, especially considering severe income stratification in the U.S., is old hat. I could go on and on about this....

[littlefuzzy1]

A few things, that hit on both sides of the debate:

First of all, (to borrow from an old post from Anime On DVD), Anime (or games, movies, etc.) is a privilege, not a right! Just because you can't afford it, that doesn't mean you should pirate it.

None of the following implies that I have ever pirated ANYTHING! Also, none of the following statements mean that I condone any form of piracy, free or for profit

That being said, the apocryphal tale goes that Metallica said the success of their band was directly linked to the people passing around bootleg tapes of their concerts when they were starting out. Someone would hear it, like it, maybe make a copy for themselves, pass it on, and then pay for the concerts and legit tapes, etc.

I also have a problem with piracy (especially on the consumer end) being related to theft of an actual product. It IS different (although no less morally wrong) than stealing a physical product. Studio manufactures a disc -> distributor sells it to Best Buy -> Best Buy loses money from a shoplifter. Piracy involves "potential" sales, the studio didn't spend money to produce the virtual copy, Best Buy didn't lose that virtual product from their inventory, and so on. It seems that publishers equate 1 pirated item to equal 1 actual sale, and therefore complain about the billions lost each year to piracy. A. Hardcore pirates aren't going to buy anyway, either because they are broke, they like the thrill of piracy, or because they may pirate hundreds of things just because they are free, and not really even use them. B. Casual pirates might or might not have purchased the real thing, maybe more so if they didn't realize their $10 street vendor DVD was actually a bootleg. C. Some people might pirate something, and then want to own a real copy, so they purchase even after pirating.

Another thing is (in music, especially) evidently the actual artist barely sees a dime or so from a CD, most of the money goes to the chain of media conglomerates, distributors, retail stores, and so on. That's partly why the artists have the concerts, they get a lot more from those and t-shirt sales, etc. at the concert.

Then, what about products that the copyright holder hasn't released? This could be old games, movies that they don't see a market for, or even versions of movies that differ from what is available. I personally haven't, but I wouldn't look down on someone who purchased a bootleg of Song of the South, or maybe the ORIGINAL versions of the Star Wars trilogy (especially before Lucas finally decided to release them.) In fact, from what I understand, some of the Star Wars bootlegs have anamorphic encoding, and the versions finally released on the Limited Edition DVDs as "special features" are NOT anamorphic.

Stuff like the above isn't "stealing" IMHO, because the publishers aren't seeing any real OR potential sales from the product.

Of course, I can't stand professional pirates, especially of widely available titles or OOP titles. Most of those link back to the Triads and drug cartels, and their product is designed to trick a consumer into thinking they are getting the real thing. It's bad enough that someone might have to pay 97 bucks for SMT: Devil Summoner 1, but if they saw one for say $39.99, and found out it was a bootleg afterwards, that would really stink.

Sometimes I feel that the companies go too far in trying to prevent piracy, in that it affects the legitimate consumer. The invasive anti-piracy ads, or even worse, the music CDs etc., that install software on your computer without your permission are pretty bad. For one thing, if I bought that CD, I'm not the pirate. For another, the bootleggers that do it for profit can easily circumvent any of the extra measures, so it is just raising the cost of the legit products that I buy.

If companies wanted to combat piracy, they could (on movies, for example) sell a $5 barebones disc (non-anamorphic, interlaced, etc.) of the movie right at the theater, so you could watch it again at home. Maybe it could have some ads throughout it, like air TV. That would tide people over until the release of the actual DVD with special features, and you could trade in your $5 DVD for $5 off of the regular DVD, that would keep the market from being flooded with the cheap versions.

I think some of the game piracy came about because some game systems had the region encoding and anti-piracy stuff in the same area, so to break one, you had to break the other. I'd say, drop the region coding entirely. If someone wanted to import Demon's Souls (before it was released over here) well then, more power to them! Those people would probably buy the US version once it came out, as well. Hypothetically, someone (much younger and stupider than I) might have bought a used Japanese Dreamcast, and they found out they had to download a boot disc just to play US games. Of course, that meant that they could play burned games as well, and since the boot disc was black market, the games were easily available at the same location. Of course, that hypothetical young and stupid player bought what games he could afford, and many of the ones he possibly downloaded were things he never would have purchased anyway. If the Japanese system had officially been able to play US games, he probably would never have traipsed through those back alleys of the internet.

[Cloud737]

I cannot afford what I still want. Once I have saved enough through careful budgeting, I still intend to purchase what I want when I can finally afford it. While it is true that a company may not be getting my money immediately or possibly ever, that does not personally justify stealing.

I can't afford an Acura NSX, but that doesn't mean that since I won't be purchasing one and Acura won't be receiving my money, that I am justified in stealing one.
Depends on what you actually think as stealing here. From a pure moral and shallow (common sense) point of view, it is stealing.

However, is it really stealing when the other party wouldn't get any revenue either way? Stealing would involve the loss of actual or (in this case) potential revenue. However, if that potential revenue was zero from the start, then can that company still say it feels robbed of something it didn't have?

Like littlefuzzy1 pointed out, one copy pirated doesn't necessarily equal one sale lost. It's really difficult to estimate the potential loss in sales, and there probably will never be any ways to measure the true effects of piracy, and as such things like this will always be open to endless (and thus pointless) debates. If you ask me, though, it shouldn't be that big, IMO.

Now, I understand your point of view. You're talking from a common sense, pure moral point of view, in which anything you enjoy without rewarding the creator is regarded as stealing.
However, reality isn't that simple, especially since it's also (highly) possible the creator might not have ever been rewarded regardless if you enjoyed that or not. Does that mean the creator should feel robbed, and this accounted for as stealing?

IMO, morals exist because of their pragmatic, practical benefit to society. Morals reflect reality, constantly changing with the times. What may be beneficial for society now (and thus put into morals) might be regarded as harmful (immoral) later on.
Heck, slavery was regarded as morally ok some couple of hundred years ago. Now, you look down upon it like it wasn't your ancestors that did it before you.

In case you don't understand what I'm trying to say, I'll be a bit concrete here: I'm saying that, in my opinion, that way of thinking is old, riddled with preconceptions and doesn't reflect reality anymore.
Now, I'm not saying piracy is good. Just that thinking that every pirated copy always means stealing and one lost sale.

You spend a lot of time attempting to tear down the morality behind a company's right to be profitable, but you need to work harder on justifying how this is ethical from an individual's standpoint.
I'm not trying to tear down the morality of a company's right to be profitable. I'm not saying that everyone would steal if the law didn't punish them, just that almost everyone might. :P

And, like I said, from an individual's standpoint, yes, piracy is theft and a crime. I completely agree and never disagreed on that (if it sounded like that, sorry, didn't mean to), so I don't need to justify how this is ethical from an individual's standpoint.
However, let's think a little about what morals were made for: for a single individual, or a whole society? Clearly, it's the latter.
If something is insignificant (or at least perceived as) from a the point of view of how beneficent it is to society, the it is moral, as it does no harm.

Also, morals shouldn't be regarded "as is", as in you take morals for granted and follow them because others say it is right (i.e.: being a byproduct of society's prejudicial norms). Morals should be examined and have their usefulness questioned. Why is it wrong to steal? Why is it right to help others? The answers to these questions isn't "because!", but "because society on the whole benefits by doing this and not doing that, and thus I also benefit from it, as in individual, in the long run".
That being said, IMO, something should be immoral only when it does significant harm to society as a whole only for the (perceived) benefit of a few.

But, then again, if you want me to judge from an individual's standpoint and using the common sense I've been indoctrinated with without questioning, then yes, piracy is stealing, every single time.

China alone contributes a great deal to the piracy population on the internet.

Yes they do, and I would argue this has significantly less to do with income and more to do with poor policy/law regarding protecting copyrights mixed with pure politics.
Then why is it that piracy is also pretty high in the US, despite the tighter enforcement (IMO, from what I read in articles on the internet, it sounds like they have the strictest enforcement on the globe). It may not be as high as China's (were almost everybody pirates everything), but then again people also aren't as poor as in China. And this brings me back to my main point...

A native Chinese professor of mine was just talking about the quality of Japanese goods versus U.S. goods during the 1970s/80s. His example regarded his family purchasing a Toshiba refrigerator during the 1970s. I'm sorry, but if a family can afford something like that, things aren't too bad.
Buying something doesn't necessarily mean you can afford it. Even a homeless person might be able to get a house or even a Rolls Royce if they can save enough, theoretically.
And nowadays, you also have the option of getting a credit.

This means that buying something (or being able to buy something, even if it means giving all your money) doesn't mean it is affordable nor that your social status is good.

And even if, let's say, it does, your teacher might as well just be one of the luckier and fortunate Chinese. One person doesn't equal the whole population, nor is it much of an evidence toward a trend or situation, as there will always be more fortunate people in a society that have very good living conditions and financial status while the rest of society (i.e.: the majority of the population) will scrub barrels for their daily meal.

Using China is a poor example. I won't deny that per capita GNP is higher in the U.S. and Japan, but aside form a few dips here and there, overall GNP has been on the increase in China since the PRC was established, even during the Cultural Revolution. Since economic reform began in the late 1970s, things have improved significantly in China in regards to expendable income. Using income comparasons, especially considering severe income stratification in the U.S., is old hat. I could go on and on about this....
Just because things have improved over the years doesn't mean everything is peachy there. For someone who might have lived in a cave for 20 years of his life, moving into a mud hut may seem like things are great, but for the rest of the world living in flats and houses, it really isn't.

In the last couple of years, I've seen so many Chinese here looking for work that we are even starting to have China towns/neighborhoods. And thing is, this is not the US, France, Germany, etc., this is a third world country. And despite being a third world country, they come here to work (even illegally) because the pay and living conditions are far more favorable than there. How about that?

[slayn]

However, is it really stealing when the other party wouldn't get any revenue either way? Stealing would involve the loss of actual or (in this case) potential revenue. However, if that potential revenue was zero from the start, then can that company still say it feels robbed of something it didn't have?

For the love of all that's holy, how can one person be so dense? YES. YES IT IS STEALING. PIRACY IN ANY FORM = STEALING. Type all the words you want to, nothing you say will ever, ever change that fact.

[Rednusander]

While I appreciate your guys' efforts to stay civil in presenting your arguments, I think the whole thing is starting to get as circular as the Japanese languages thread.

I don't wanna play bad cop and arbitrarily close the thread because of that, but I humbly suggest we just drop it before things do get out of hand.

[Inzaghi]

In your case, the companies whose games you won't buy won't be getting that money regardless of you pirating or not. If I were to look from their perspective, no additional revenue would be made, at least at that time, if you didn't pirate them. So what's the use then? Of course, that's not how companies normally think...

This argument never makes any sense. You're saying there's a game you don't want to play, so it's okay to steal it and play it. Well, if you don't want to play it, why are you bothering to take it? You are getting a product--regardless of whether it's a product you "wanted" or "intended to play" (surely if you didn't want it or intend to play it, you wouldn't be stealing it?)--and paying nothing in return. There's no higher "moral" or "moral-pragmatic" argument to be made here. It's a fact. You are getting a product and paying nothing for it. This is stealing. End of.

End of this thread, in fact.