A pair of critiques concerning Demon's Souls and its difficulty

[Perversion]

I'm new to these boards, but not new to posting on a forum (my "home" site is an RPG Maker forum where I have nearly 1000 posts) nor to Atlus games (have been a "faithful" via email for probably over a year now, and own probably over 30 Atlus developed/published games).


Kind of an intro to myself, as this is the first new thread I've made here.


But if anyone is interested in reading a few literate critiques I've written on the game and the way its difficulty works, I have them posted here (http://stupididioticramblings.wordpress.com/2009/10/05/demons-souls-critique-1-is-it-really-all-that-difficult/) and here (http://stupididioticramblings.wordpress.com/2009/10/05/demons-souls-critique-2-primal-fear-and-isolation/).

A brief excerpt:

So in order to succeed at Demon’s Souls, you need to confront another deeply ingrained part of your humanity, the fear and panic centers of your brain, and overcome them. You need to overcome them to the point that your logical and tactical brain is in full control, and you begin imprinting new instincts, new habits, through repetition.

And again, we come back to the sheer genius of Demon’s Souls, and the brilliance of its developers. Taken on a literal level, this is, as many other reviews mention, a brooding dark fantasy game. But beneath the surface is a game that profoundly taps into areas of the brain and the psyche that no other game has ever touched.

Agreements? Disagreements? Thoughts? Please let me know what you think.

[DarkShear]

Good write up! I liked it for sure. You might want to copy and paste a snipper here in your original post to draw people to it.

[Pendragon90]

Amazing write up's. Definitly good advice to take into the world of boletaria for the first time.

I can't wait to play tmrw, stupid..Eb Games..shipping late.


Anyway, good stuff.

[Archer_58]

I picked up the game Tuesday but hadn't opened it just yet. I think this was the review i've been waiting on to do just that.

I'm a very big Kings Field fan and i consider KF to be the crown jewel of RPG gaming. This review sounds like a game i'm going to enjoy. If you ever played KF you know to take your sweet time and enjoy the great atmosphere that is offered.

I know these are two different games but i believe my tastes will be satisified.

I've never seen a game that uses music as well as KF and the way i read DS does the same.

Thanks

[Jorlen]

Great read :)

[harlequ1n]

Very well-presented points and analyses. Excellent read :)

[Ssylex]

Great write-ups that convey how I feel about Demon's Souls, but I've been unable to relate in my own words.

Thanks for sharing. :)

The other day, I was pontificating with my old college roommate about the glory days of gaming when Everquest came up. When EQ first launched, it was amazing. Nobody knew how to play MMOs. It took days to reach level 10 on my server, and I was a frontrunner for awhile. I played a Dark Elf, whom was hostile to nearly every other race in the game, and certainly those in the nearby starting areas.

Ack. I'm pontificating again.

Anyway, the crux of the conversation came down to the extreme difficulty of old Everquest, and how it really made the game worth playing. We had countless epic, memorable experiences in that game, all stemming from difficulty (or sometimes poor coding that we rationalized as difficulty. Really... why would a griffon beeline for me, the only person in the empty plains, and chase me for miles before finally killing me. Or why would a sea-giant rampage from over the horizon to attack the poor saps riding the boat from Freeport to Fay. Actually... that kinda makes sense). The sense of accomplishment I felt (and still feel), for that crappy Dark Elf Necromancer was huge, because the trial was so extremely challenging.

I stated that in the age of World of Warcraft and others of it's kind... ie games that essentially play themselves... people just don't want a game of that extreme difficulty.

And then there's Demon's Souls. And it is good. It's so so SO good. It really brings me back to those nights spent creeping through the werewolf infested forests in EQ. To the nights I'd stay up late playing Alone In the Dark and FREAKING OUT when that poorly animated zombie shambled out of the darkness to kill me, as I was too frozen in terror to work the keys and fire my pistol.

I've been gaming for over 20 years now, and there's definitely been highs and lows. I've been fairly jaded about the state of video games recently, largely in part due to the current trend towards short, easy, largely forgettable games (all my opinion, of course). DS is taking my nostalgia, and instead of reminding me of how crappy those old games looked (Doom isn't NEARLY as high-def as I remember it, wtf...), it's bringing it back to life in just the way I remember it. Thanks for converting me back to the darkside of difficult, meaningful gameplay, From Software (and Atlus!). <3 <3 <3

[Nate.in.clearwater]

I enjoyed it.

[Jorlen]

Great write-ups that convey how I feel about Demon's Souls, but I've been unable to relate in my own words.

Thanks for sharing. :)

The other day, I was pontificating with my old college roommate about the glory days of gaming when Everquest came up. When EQ first launched, it was amazing. Nobody knew how to play MMOs. It took days to reach level 10 on my server, and I was a frontrunner for awhile. I played a Dark Elf, whom was hostile to nearly every other race in the game, and certainly those in the nearby starting areas.

Ack. I'm pontificating again.

Anyway, the crux of the conversation came down to the extreme difficulty of old Everquest, and how it really made the game worth playing. We had countless epic, memorable experiences in that game, all stemming from difficulty (or sometimes poor coding that we rationalized as difficulty. Really... why would a griffon beeline for me, the only person in the empty plains, and chase me for miles before finally killing me. Or why would a sea-giant rampage from over the horizon to attack the poor saps riding the boat from Freeport to Fay. Actually... that kinda makes sense). The sense of accomplishment I felt (and still feel), for that crappy Dark Elf Necromancer was huge, because the trial was so extremely challenging.

I stated that in the age of World of Warcraft and others of it's kind... ie games that essentially play themselves... people just don't want a game of that extreme difficulty.

And then there's Demon's Souls. And it is good. It's so so SO good. It really brings me back to those nights spent creeping through the werewolf infested forests in EQ. To the nights I'd stay up late playing Alone In the Dark and FREAKING OUT when that poorly animated zombie shambled out of the darkness to kill me, as I was too frozen in terror to work the keys and fire my pistol.

I've been gaming for over 20 years now, and there's definitely been highs and lows. I've been fairly jaded about the state of video games recently, largely in part due to the current trend towards short, easy, largely forgettable games (all my opinion, of course). DS is taking my nostalgia, and instead of reminding me of how crappy those old games looked (Doom isn't NEARLY as high-def as I remember it, wtf...), it's bringing it back to life in just the way I remember it. Thanks for converting me back to the darkside of difficult, meaningful gameplay, From Software (and Atlus!). <3 <3 <3

Ah ha! Another EQer :) I played EQ for years. For years after, I tried several different MMOs. None could come close to the "feeling" of EQ. None, not even Vanguard (it came close though). I essentially gave up on the MMO genre altogether, not liking the direction that these new MMOs were taking; i.e. you can solo the game yourself with any class, and no one wants to quest together (isn't that what an MMO is?!) and it's all about the end game (which I hate).

I agree with you, EQ had that magic, that feeling that no other game could bring forth... The world, Norrath, in EQ was brutal. Step in the wrong zone, you're dead and guess what, corpse run :) I made countless online buddies in EQ, a phenomenon that hasn't ever happened again. Me and a monk friend would attempt to kill everything, get everywhere. And we managed to do a lot, just the two of us :)

Demon's souls brings back a lot of those elements. Corpse run = Soul run. Not knowing what lies ahead, certain death looming over your head at all times. Boss fights, tense moments, working together. THIS is what gaming should be!

If EQ and Demon's souls had a baby, a next gen baby... Can you just imagine? DS as an MMO? Bigger, more open worlds? More players?

Side note: To the OP - sorry for posting off topic in your thread

[Ssylex]

If EQ and Demon's souls had a baby, a next gen baby... Can you just imagine? DS as an MMO? Bigger, more open worlds? More players?

Side note: To the OP - sorry for posting off topic in your thread

Hah, hi fellow old-time EQer. That might be the last time I was as awestruck with a game.

Honestly, at this point I'm just hoping the developers get a whole fleet of trucks full of money off of this game so I can get Demon's Souls 2. It sounds like it sold like mad over in Asia - ideally it'll do the same, here. I'm just worried that my fellow North Americans won't be up to the challenge... I know a lot of my old hard-core friends have gone soft and it's my personal crusade to get my old college roommates to get this game.

Thanks again for your write-ups, OP. They made my day, and brought back more great memories.

[Perversion]

No worries about going off-topic. As for the comment that suggested adding a snippet of the critiques, I edited the original post to include the concluding two paragraphs from the second critique.

Just picked up one of my two preordered NA copies today, and both artbooks/CDs. I'm gonna pick up the other copy on Friday when I get paid.


Thanks for the support, guys. I just checked, and mine is currently the second fastest-growing blog on Wordpress. I'm hoping to continue posting analysis like this, albeit not exclusively on Atlus games.

[reb_moonshiner]

Well i don't really like demons souls to well for the simple fact that there is no lobby and i can't invite any of my friends. I mean it would be a awesome game if i could play with friends, maybe they need to think about adding a lobby or atleast letting you invite friends. It wouldn't make the game easier, just better.

[Perversion]

You undoubtedly did not click either of the links I posted in the first post, or just cannot understand exactly why having friend invites, voice chat, etc, would completely ruin the atmosphere Demon's Souls has. The game is perfect as is re: "multiplayer," and was made the way it was for a very specific reason.

It's the same reason that only a selection of premade messages are available. Playing this game is not meant to be an action-packed romp with some friends. It's not meant to be able to type any message you want and leave it on the ground for others to read. It's not meant to be able to chat while progressing through the levels. It's MEANT to be an isolated, immersive, and actually fairly lonely experience. Incorporating any traditional multiplayer mechanics would break the immersion, and decimate the atmosphere the game has created.


So yeah, I disagree.

[reb_moonshiner]

Which is exactly why it will never be as popular as cod:waw, or any game near that.

[reb_moonshiner]

They need to create a game like gauntlet dark legacy, or gauntlet legends. All the good rpg's were created 10 and 15 years ago. Sadly they will never return again.

[ZomDizae]

You undoubtedly did not click either of the links I posted in the first post, or just cannot understand exactly why having friend invites, voice chat, etc, would completely ruin the atmosphere Demon's Souls has.
:O
*shakes hands* :agree: *kisses feet* :agree: *does a barrel roll* :agree:

People like you are very rare. I love you.

[Zion0153]

I loved the review, and I think you hit the nail right on the head.

The point you made about wanting to rush through everything, which is what this game is trying to make us not do, is a great one. I'm guessing the main reason behind this is because in other games, you're rewarded with rushing through everything (Unless there are some hidden items somewhere). I mean, most games have some achievement that is getting through the game in as little time as possible, but I don't think a speed run is even possible until you've played the game for a long, long time, and even then it's got to be near impossible...

The second critique was also very well written. I felt a small sense of that 'primal fear' with your descriptions, and I haven't even reached those area yet. I can't wait though.

Great job on both of them!

[Syra]

The second critique was also very well written. I felt a small sense of that 'primal fear' with your descriptions, and I haven't even reached those area yet. I can't wait though.

The Tower of Latria scares the crap out of me. If you want creepy, feel free to venture there. I think it has even made me scared of bells...

[Zion0153]

The second critique was also very well written. I felt a small sense of that 'primal fear' with your descriptions, and I haven't even reached those area yet. I can't wait though.

The Tower of Latria scares the crap out of me. If you want creepy, feel free to venture there. I think it has even made me scared of bells...

Oh great, something else to haunt me during my daily life XD

[Archer_58]

I picked up the game Tuesday but hadn't opened it just yet. I think this was the review i've been waiting on to do just that.

I'm a very big Kings Field fan and i consider KF to be the crown jewel of RPG gaming. This review sounds like a game i'm going to enjoy. If you ever played KF you know to take your sweet time and enjoy the great atmosphere that is offered.

I know these are two different games but i believe my tastes will be satisified.

I've never seen a game that uses music as well as KF and the way i read DS does the same.

Thanks

After playing the game i have to back up on my post. I was looking for the atmosphere described in this review and it's just not there. I was looking for the feeling KF gives me of being along and on edge all the time and it's not there.

There is no joy in exploring in this game. It's a good game for some but not me.

I guess i'm spoiled by the great Kings Field series and am forever looking for that feeling again in a game.

Time to trade this title in. :yawn:

[Deiser]

I know this is a two-day-old topic, but I thought it'd be better to post my feelings about the game's atmosphere here than make a redundant new topic.

Perversion, I completely agree with your sentiments regarding the game's atmosphere and honestly have nothing to add to it. What I would like to praise a bit, though, is the multiplayer aspect. As already mentioned here, the multiplayer is limited enough to keep the lonely, tense feel of the game yet is still enough that you can see the influence of the experiences of other players.

However, this is the first game I've experienced where you really can not outright rely on the help of other people and only truly trust yourself; the message system, while surprisingly thorough, is still ambiguous enough that other players can not outright tell you of dangers ahead. On top of that, it can easily be used to fool you into running headlong into death. Then of course is the phantom system; the danger of black phantoms is obvious, but the less apparent threat is actually from blue phantoms. While they are obviously there to help you, the intentional lack of means of communication will mean that you and your partner will often be in situations where you do not function well as a team and thus hamper your progress more than help it.

Thanks to the way the multiplayer is implemented, this game is also the first time where I've had to second-guess myself at almost every step; do I take the message's advice or not? That jump looks safe, but is it really and will I actually find anything worthwhile there if I survive? Those type of questions have come into my head only with this game and no other, making Demon's Souls the only game for me that is tense both in the physical AND mental sense.

[ICE PICK]

the only problem i have with the difficulty is the hit detection i guess i should say....sometimes its really bad....the most recent example of this are the mosquitoes in the last world....they are completely under the floor but yet they still hit me.....things like that are annoying....but i love the difficulty, i thought it was going to be way harder than it is tho....but im sure ill be eating my words when i go all black tendency

[Perversion]

As this board does not have a reputation system or anything similar, I wanted to let Ssylex know that I appreciate linking to my thing on the Kotaku comments thread on Demon's Souls.

I'm hoping to get another critique up in the next few days, probably for the PSN game Flower.