Does anyone have a general timeline for all the games?

[littlefuzzy1]

It would be kind of neat to see something that showed where each game fits (assuming that they are all in the same universe.) Also, I'd like to see what games haven't made it over here, and so on.

[Enzeru]

This is totally based off of pretty much nothing. But here I go!

Main Universe---SMT I> SMT II>SMT If...>SMT III>SMT SJ

SMT If sub-universe---Raidou 1>Raidou 2>Devil Summoner>Soul Hackers>SMT If...>Persona>Persona 2 IS>Persona 3>Persona 4

Alternate If sub-universe---Raidou 1>Raidou 2>Devil Summoner>Soul Hackers>SMT If...>Persona>Persona 2 EP>Persona 3>Persona 4

And then those other games such as DDS and Demi-Kids are muddled around somewhere!

[nbinney]

I thought If.. was between SMT 1 and 2?

[Kenji]

Be warned, there be spoilers abound.

Let's start with facts: the official timeline given in a fanbook for Raidou Kuzunoha vs. the Soulless Army. Here it is. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/Ariseishirou/fanbook040-1.jpg)

Now, rather than think in terms of a timeline, we should think in terms of the Amala Universe (Nocturne), the official term that describes the MegaTen multiverse. Combined with information from the two Raidou games, we can figure that the mechanics of the Amala Universe is based on diverging timelines (and Conceptions).

In other words: Every ending is canon. That is, every ending sprouts a timeline that may or may not lead to another game. For instance, there exists a legitimate timeline in which the P3 MC kills Ryouji... but not much happens, after that. Naturally, the ones that lead to more games are more interesting to us, but I digress.

These timeline divergences are often the basis in what separates our world from any given MegaTen world. Case in point, both Raidou games take place in Taisho 20, a year that doesn't exist in our timeline (the Taisho period lasted only 14 years). Not only that, but the Great Kanto Earthquake didn't occur in the Raidou timeline, lengthening the liberal social trends of Taisho Democracy yet not preventing Japan's war against America.

It's unknown how far back the Raidou timeline diverged from our own. As far as the Heian era (the four Kuzunohas vs. Mikaboshi) is the most conservative estimate.

The original timeline, in which Raidou Kuzunoha the 14th didn't have to deal with the Daidouji case, goes something like this:

DS:RKvSA (Raidou does small cases) > SMT (Neutral) > SMTII

With deviations based on the axiom "all endings are true," timelines are also created based on the Law and Chaos endings of SMT, as well as the Law, Chaos, and Neutral endings of SMTII. It's like a tree, really.

Now, the Presence Within Kaya (Raidou Kuzunoha the 40th) travels back from the 2050s (this is where the teep that mentioned Raidou leaving the Center was) to change the future. He fails, but indirectly alters the future by giving Raidou the 14th an idea of where history is headed.

Raidou the 14th's actual choice is expressed in Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon. Unless I'm mistaken, and correct me if I am, finishing the Law ending repairs the Akarana path to Tokyo Millennium in New Game +. This means that the timeline leading to SMT and SMTII hasn't been erased. However, the Neutral and Chaos endings lead down different paths.

In keeping (more or less) with the official timeblob, I posit that the Neutral ending leads to Shin Megami Tensei if..., the first two Devil Summoner games, and the Persona timeline, while the Chaos ending leads to Nocturne.

Therefore, when all is said and done, the Great Destruction timeline is thus:

DS:RKvSA > DS:RKvKA (Law) > SMT (Neutral) > NINE and Imagine > SMTII

Persona Timeline

There are two major Persona timelines, thanks to what happened in P2, they go thus:

DS:RKvSA > DS:RKvKA (Neutral) > SMTif... > P1 > P2:IS

DS:RKvSA > DS:RKvKA (Neutral) > SMTif... > P1? > P2:EP > P3 > P4

I placed if... here entirely because of Tamaki Uchida, who transferred from Karukozaka High to St. Hermelin due to reasons she "doesn't want to talk about," and who has experience with demonic situations and is implied to be a devil summoner. Because she's referred to in P1 as a transfer student, which to me implies she transferred in this year, I'd say that both if... and P1 take place in 1996.

P2 takes place in 1999. Apparently, this was said outright in Eternal Punishment, but I haven't seen that scene yet, so instead I based it on the timings of the Grand Cross and which would most likely get the millennialists excited. 1999 seems the sure-fire bet.

P3 and P4 explicitly take place in 2009-2010 and 2011-2012, respectively.

I should note that P1's position in the Eternal Punishment timeline is dubious, mostly because I haven't played it. Something happened to the St. Hermelin students in 1996, but Kandori is apparently still alive. Someone else will have to pick up the slack and reconcile this (maybe the Snow Queen Quest is what happens in the EP timeline?).

I'm also not sure whether the first two Devil Summoner games are a part of these two timelines or if they're in yet another, closely-related timeline. If anyone can offer a first-hand account, I'd appreciate it.

Nocturne Timeline

It goes something like this:

DS:RKvSA > DS:RKvKA (Chaos) > Nocturne

Pretty much nothing of note happens until 200X, and then there's the Conception. Fairly straightforward.

Incidentally, I'm actually starting to wish that Nocturne wasn't numbered (i.e. it was just "SMT: Nocturne" and not "SMTIII: Nocturne"), since it takes place on a separate timeline and only shares gameplay elements and themes with its predecessors (oh, and Hijiri), similar to if... and the coming Strange Journey. Numbering it as "SMTIII" gives a false sense of continuity when it's no more continuous than the unnumbered installments.

I also want to note that the Junkyard from Digital Devil Saga resembles what a Yosuga world ought to look like. The presence of the Demi-Fiend further supports this feeling of connection. However, as revealed in DDS2, the Junkyard is a program. Yet, the nature of the Amala Universe is presented as a computer science problem (i.e. everything, from the universe to demons, is consistently described in terms of "data"). Because of that, I'm tempted to refer to the Koppelthorn Engine from "Snake Tales E" in Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance and posit that Sera actually created a gateway into the Yosuga world and transplanted her playmates there... but that's a little too psychedelic.

The other games undoubtedly branch off like the three timelines I mentioned, but there really isn't enough information to get any more specific than that.

Whew...

[DirewolfX]

Wow... you are an SMT scholar. :)

I like the idea of diverging time lines... it makes much more sense for the SMT universe.

[Foobar]

Wow... you are an SMT scholar. :)

I like the idea of diverging time lines... it makes much more sense for the SMT universe.

Diverging timelines save writers from getting into trouble and prevents fans from screaming "retcon punch!"

Diverging timelines or a multiverse approach to this stuff is generally a safer way to go about things. Retconning too much can get you into a bit of trouble, morso with books, comics, movies and televison than games, though sometimes games can take it too far as well.

[brigadeleader]

So, if P3 and P4 have some connection to the main SMT games.

Does this mean that Nyx, Shadows, and Personas are present somewhere in the other universes? :question:

Wouldn't it mean that Nyx is the one who created humanity in all the SMT and DS timelines when it crashed into the Earth long ago?

If so, then wow. :o

[unknown]

Of all the explanations I've seen for the general SMT Timeline, your's makes the most sense Kenji. Bravo.

Also I read somewhere that Tamaki can be seen with a GUMP in Innocent Sin, is this true?

[Kenji]

Thanks for the compliments! :D

Also I read somewhere that Tamaki can be seen with a GUMP in Innocent Sin, is this true?
Y'know, I've heard of this, too. I think it was on the GameFAQs forums. I've seen the scene in question (Tamaki unable to beat King Leo on the Sky Museum roof), but I'm afraid I was too busy staring at her stealth kitty getup to see whether she had a GUMP or not. :P

Does this mean that Nyx, Shadows, and Personas are present somewhere in the other universes?

Wouldn't it mean that Nyx is the one who created humanity in all the SMT and DS timelines when it crashed into the Earth long ago?
It's been awhile since I played P3 (and I haven't finished my Hard mode playthrough yet), so I can't comment on Nyx... though, what you're describing sounds more like Lavos. :P I guess it depends on who said what and what they said, so I'll have to look into it later.

As for Shadows and Personae being present throughout, I'd say yes, though only in the Persona games do they take center stage. Tamaki Uchida of if..., for instance, uses a COMP and a Guardian (which is essentially a Persona). In SMT especially, we have the Law and Chaos Heroes, as well as the Heroine, able to use magic freely for no explained reason (none of them seem particularly versed in the occult, aside from the Heroine).

It's possible that the power of Persona has been harnessed in the early games (later games, like Devil Survivor, offer alternative explanations for human magic), but these games were released long before the idea of Persona came about.

I gave some more thought to what I had said about Digital Devil Saga and, for the sake of putting it out there for review, I'll elaborate on that psychedelic theory I was talking about...

The Koppelthorn Engine and the Cyber Shaman

Naturally, I don't intend to use Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance as a direct resource, but it did talk about the ideas behind this theory. The story of "Snake Tales E" revolves around Otacon's VR simulator, which he recently beefed up with the Koppelthorn Engine, allowing him to create virtual environments indistinguishable from real experience (to the extent that Snake is convinced that he's actually Raiden, for a short time).

As is revealed about halfway through the short story, the Koppelthorn Engine actually operates not by creating a convincing virtual environment, but by scanning the multiverse for a time-space coordinate that matches the desired parameters for the simulation, then granting the user's consciousness full control over the person in that situation.

So, for instance, when Solid Snake attempts a virtual bomb disposal mission on a tanker, he's actually taking over the body of an alternate Snake who happens to be on a bomb disposal mission on a tanker. Furthermore, if "our" Snake fails this mission, the alternate Snake dies, requiring the Koppelthorn Engine to find another time, place, and universe that fits the criteria if "our" Snake decides to start the mission over.

Similarly, I wonder if Sera did a similar thing while linked to Brahman through the EGG. This is based on two things: 1) Everything in the MegaTen universe is consistently described in terms of data and programs, the deletion program at the end of DDS1 further illustrating this point, and 2) Linking to Brahman gives Sera access to divine computing power, to the extent that emotional changes can trigger drastic effects, seen throughout DDS2.

Therefore, I posit this: Contrary to what people (all without divine knowledge) say, Sera was never actually creating virtual reality environments. Instead, she was tapping into alternate worlds that fit various criteria that she desired and then inserting complex programs (people) for her to play with. It's not unlike her using a preexisting programming language and object-oriented library to create a few new modules for execution in an existing program.

When Colonel Beck demanded a training ground tooled for endless conflict, to train his combat AI, Sera found the closest thing that fit that criteria: the Yosuga world. For the next five years, Sera funnelled souls reentering Samsara into the Junkyard, perpetuating the conflict. This may explain how people like Greg and David, whom Sera never met, ended up there. This might also explain why the Demi-Fiend (or at least his data) is present, being the architect of the Junkyard's "language," which Sera has co-opted for Beck's use.

To further the concept of direct inter-universe data transmission in DDS, I refer to the four Seraphim in DDS2. That they appear at all isn't unusual, but what is strange is that they retain their memories and personalities from Shin Megami Tensei II, implying that they were ported directly from Tokyo Millennium, possibly after their deaths.

The Seraphim resemble my theory in that, in both instance, transmission was done through the Sun. Furthermore, recent games have outright stated that human data can be made to behave like demonic data (Devil Survivor), which furthers the possibility.

I dunno... does anybody have anything to say about this?

[brigadeleader]

Thanks for all the information. It's all really interesting :D

:::Warning for Spoilers:::


If I remember correctly in DDS, the guy that turned into Beelzebub had a very similar case where his mind pretty much became the demon that he transforms into. And also in the battle with the guy that turns into Metatron. At first he's mad about his girlfriend, but then as the battle goes on he starts saying stuff that sounds more and more like Metatron.

It's been awhile since I last played DDS so my memory of things isn't all that clear.


The Nyx information actually comes from a fanbook translation that I happened across.

Here it is right here.



http://xcomp.wordpress.com/2008/01/02/persona-club-p3-book-a-collection-of-fanart-and-interesting-details/

Nyx
Nyx was a being composed of waves that impacted with planet Earth a long time ago when living things just started to appear. As a result of this impact pieces of the Earth broke off forming the moon and Nyx fused itself with the planet and these pieces. Before long the waves from Nyx became a threat to the lifeforms on Earth as it tried to wipe them out.

However, the lifeforms fought back with their will to live and because of this there was a sudden burst of evolution. Eventually, these lifeforms (now humans) had sealed away Nyx because of their thoughts of fearing death and not wanting to die but there was a price to all this. Their fast evolution meant humans ended up with a shorter lifespan and Nyx also became part of their sub-consciousness.

As humans continued through history and into the modern society, the seal began to weaken through war and weak wills to live. Of course, there were also the ones who lived fulfilling lives that helped offset this.

[cj iwakura]

Also worth mentioning that SMT Imagine follows SMT1, right after the Great Destruction flooded Tokyo.

It's not exactly full of information(characters like Asura and the Innocents bring up more questions than they answer), but it still has interesting moments. The Messian and Gaian cities are worth a look if you're into the lore of the Law/Chaos conflict.

Arcadia(Messian):

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/megamitensei/images/0/01/Arcadia.jpg

Souhonzan(Gaian):

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/megamitensei/images/c/cf/Souhonzan2.jpg

And of course, Shinjuku Babel(neutral ground):

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/megamitensei/images/a/a9/ShinjukuBabel.jpg

Captured all those personally, FYI.

[Orphnoch]

Holy crap, I knew that the Raidou games were connected to the main series, but I didn't know that they were this deeply rooted.

I really feel like playing them now...

[Foobar]

Going back over this process - and there is a pretty clear cut connection from King Abbadon to Nocturne - given Hijiri's presence in Nocturne wouldn't that mean that SMT and SMT are, in theory, relevant to Nocturne?

If they're not, then maybe Hijiri isn't Aleph at all and some other man that went through the process of the ultimate sin.

I only played the law ending of King Abbadon so far, but Raidou getting brow beaten for giving people hope for the future, not unlike the Demi-Fiend for choosing freedom in the Neutral Ending to Nocturne. And that by chosing those paths, both of them were condeming the world to a cycle of suffering.

Then again, all the bobbleheaded end bosses say something like that, don't they?

[Saburo Hikari]

Hmm...do the original Megami Tensei games (Not the Shin Megami Tensei games) fit anywhere in these timelines?

[Kenji]

Going back over this process - and there is a pretty clear cut connection from King Abbadon to Nocturne - given Hijiri's presence in Nocturne wouldn't that mean that SMT and SMT are, in theory, relevant to Nocturne?
It's kinda like this: YHVH's curse on Aleph, if Hijiri is indeed an incarnation of Aleph, is that he'll bear witness to every Conception but be unable to do anything about it. Therefore, he'll be present at every conception, which allows him to be Hijiri in Nocturne's timeline. Additionally, when the Personaverse winds down to its conclusion and undergoes its own Conception, there'll be an incarnation of Aleph to witness that, too. So goes every other branch timeline, including the "boring" ones where everybody else is dead (P3 Bad Ending).

So, not being on the same timeline branch doesn't make much of a difference, especially since Raidou Kuzunoha vs. the Soulless Army demonstrated through the Belial/Nebiros sidequest that demons (i.e. data in the Amala Network) don't experience time in the linear fashion humans do.

So, yes, SMT1 and 2 are related to Nocturne, just not directly. After all, there's no way for them to occupy the same timeline. By the time Nocturne would take place (200X), Tokyo should already be bombed to hell (199X).

Hmm...do the original Megami Tensei games (Not the Shin Megami Tensei games) fit anywhere in these timelines?
From what I understand, Megami Tensei II definitely does. It takes place in post-Great Destruction Tokyo, in a branch timeline that was created by an errant nuclear warhead. This was apparently explained in the PSX version of SMT1, where an added NPC describes a bomb shelter that was struck directly by a warhead and annihilated, giving the general direction of the one the MT2 protagonist starts from.

What seems to be going on is that the protagonists of MT2 and SMT1 are mutually exclusive: one lives, one dies, depending on the timeline used, and that effects the way the world goes. I'm afraid I don't know much more about MT2, so I can't go into the full extent of the differences, but it does seem to me that SMT1 was partially created to explain why the world of MT2 is the way it is.

As for Megami Tensei, I'm not sure how that fits in. The PSX version of SMT1 mentions that Pascal, the protagonist's dog, was a gift from a "Mr. Nakajima," which pretty much explains why it transforms into Cerberus if you take it to the Jakyou Manor. The first level of MT1 is in MT2 as a video game, of all things, presumably programmed by Akemi Nakajima. Moreover, the first game supposedly takes place somewhere between the novels, and I'm not sure if there's really any room for that. It's fairly mysterious, but it is related somehow... it'd be nice if Aerie would finish their fantranslation so we could know for sure.

--

@ brigadeleader: Haven't been ignoring you. I've actually put a lot of thought into that entry on Nyx and I might have an answer that doesn't require Nyx to actually be in the moon. :P I'll come back with that later.

--

EDIT: Okay, let's do this thing:

The Capital of Belief

There is a recurring theme throughout the MegaTen franchise: the direct relationship between a deity's power and the number of people who believe in him/her. In fact, several stories use this as an explicit plot point: Raidou Kuzunoha vs. King Abaddon citing it for why the Kunitsukami have been driven underground or, more centrally, Devil Survivor giving it as the reason for the Shomonkai's activities throughout the story. The more people believe in a particular god, and more importantly, the stronger and more concentrated that belief, the more powerful it becomes and the more capable of enacting its functions. This is why so many MegaTen plotlines involve cults, since it's from these cults that gods derive their power.

In this way, I think the structure of the demonic world in the Amala Universe takes on a Nitzschean form: the belief of mankind in a mythological being allows that being to take form in the Amala Network (i.e. Man creates God). Moreover, the prevailing dogma constructs the personalities, interests, and goals of these demons, which they will pursue relentlessly because, as mentioned in Nocturne, they are incapable of change or growth. Once a demon has been created, due to the timeless nature of the Amala Network, it is as if it has always existed and becomes like an independent existence. This is why you can't wish away a Preta's desire to eat you, because that has already been encoded into its data as its raison d'etre.

Moreover, the existence and timeless nature of the demon allows it to appear before believers and reinforce its own existence, retroactively enhancing the belief that created it and strengthening it further. The Amala Universe becomes incredibly complex through this mechanism of Ultimecian loops, and this may well be how the more intelligent and organized demons, such as YHVH, Jehovah (multiple versions of a nominally singular god can exist, as proven by Shiva and Makhala, explicitly in vs. King Abaddon when they talk to each other), Lucifer, the Trimurti and other widely-believed gods, become so incredibly powerful and gain dominance.

As these gods are timeless, both time and space become tracts of territory to exert dominance and collect belief capital from mankind. When the barriers between the Amala Network and the human world weaken, great effort is expended to win the hearts and minds of the people, thereby strengthening a given god and allowing it to carry out the task it was created with the intention of performing, be it the creation of a static Thousand-Year Kingdom (angelic or demonic) or the continuation of the death-rebirth cycle of the world. Much of the activity of Heavenly or Luciferian agents is devoted to proving their existence and drumming up believers for the respective Messian and Gaian cults, as part of this strategic game. The same goes for the Shomonkai cult of Devil Survivor or, as I interpret it, the Nyx cult in Persona 3.

This also justifies the modern setting of most of the MegaTen games, since the 20th and early 21st centuries feature more people than appear anytime earlier in history... perhaps more than anytime later, too, given the amount of importance placed in this period (not to mention events like the Great Destruction that severely cut down the human population). This could also explain how Aleph was capable of deicide against YHVH, since not enough people remained to maintain godly power, forcing him to compensate with purity of individual belief (when that fails, he then seeks to wipe out mankind in his madness, which even the angels can recognize).

It's also worth noting that Tokyo seems to be especially important. We know the real-life reasons why: roughly a quarter of the Japanese population lives in the capital and Atlus seeks to bring the experience as close to home as possible to their primary audience. In-universe, however, it was never fully explained. The Raidou Kuzunoha series does seem to indicate that Tokyo has a particularly weak boundary separating it from the demon world, which makes it a great entry point but not necessarily the greatest center stage for these world religious dramas. Why should YHVH and Lucifer be fighting over the soul of Tokyo when it would seem more fitting to duke it out over Jerusalem or Rome?

This is where Persona 3 ties in, in which Takaya carried on the mad beliefs he inherited from the Kirijo Group and, through his charisma, rope the entire population of Tatsumi Port Island (and possibly the rest of Tokyo) into believing that Nyx would end the world. Even SEES falls victim to this and are essentially Nyx cultists, albeit in an adversarial manner (much like how Satanists are ultimately Judeo-Christian: they just side with the enemy). Considering that two months is nowhere near enough time to spread a new cult around the world, yet spreading it across Tokyo is more than enough to cause Nyx to actually appear and attempt to destroy the world, is telling. The same case applies for the Shomonkai, who are content that spreading their beliefs among the citizens trapped in the Yamanote Line will be enough to give Belberith the dominance required to challenge God, who has at least a third of the human race at his disposal.

In other words, I think we can reasonably conclude that something about Tokyo must amplify the beliefs of people to a point that it can tip the scales by itself. Indeed, it tips the scales so far that a completely new religion with no history can spread and cause the formation of an entirely new pantheon of gods (Nyx, complete with her own new creation myth, and Erebus to represent the self-destructive desires of people).

[marto_motoko]

It's interesting how the Nihilistic qualities you list in these people can only ironically be met through the creationist perspective of identifying another being.


By the way, if these creatures come pre-equipped with their own creation story, does that mean that it was the people that created them that gave them the story, or does the stronger the demon become, the stronger its ambition and capability of self-propelling reasoning become?

Look at Hitoshura for example. A human, yet a demon, he still was able to create his own path only through the growth of power.

Otherwise is he like the rest of the creatures with a predetermined future, and never-ending stagnation in his one path?

In a sense, his creation was created by a demon to begin with. Lucifer created him, albeit through the imagery of a Magatama, but still. A demon created a demon, therefore ....how would it work?

[Snakeyes]

Sorry to bump this old thread, but could someone explain the concept of "data" to me?

[Tom]

I would also like to point out that Last Bible's cell phone games (not remakes) have multiple worlds linked together.

In the end of Shinyaku LB, you find that the person who created the Last Bible world was a high school student who saved the world, but grew sick of it after seeing how everybody lived a pointless existence. They lived without passion or adventure... They had no enemy to rally against. The world bored him.

The goddess granted him a wish. She made the world as he wished it could be. He wanted a world with a great evil that would rise up, be defeated and banished, only to rise again and fall, again and again... A place where people could live out an old-fashioned legend instead of a simple, boring life.

The world he wanted was the Last Bible world.

It's heavily implied, though not directly stated, that the one who created the Last Bible world is Nakajima of Megami Tensei fame, though you only see his black school uniform. His name is marked as "???", but who else could it be?

[Kenji]

That's... pretty fascinating, actually. Not only does it explain where the Last Bible universe came from, but it's also further indication of Nakajima's importance.

Thanks for sharing, Tom! :)

Sorry to bump this old thread, but could someone explain the concept of "data" to me?
A datum is a unit of information ("data" is the plural). A bit of binary code, for instance, is a unit of data.

However, it can go further than that. Our bodies, for instance, are constructed using the data stored in DNA. Photons from the sun could also be construed to constitute data. All stimuli contains information of some sort, so it could be construed that all things are (to some extent) data.

[Snakeyes]

Thanks for the explanation Kenji. So it's pretty much the fabric of the DDS world.

How do the first two Devil Summoner games fit into all of this?

[Kenji]

Honestly, I'm not sure. I know there's a bit of crossover between the first two Devil Summoner and Persona games (namely, the Kuzunoha Detective Agency), but that really doesn't say much. I don't know whether they inhabit the same timeline or just timelines that are very similar.

I own both games (DS1 on PSP, Soul Hackers on PSX), but I don't have enough knowledge to read them. Sorry. :-|