Finished the game.. my thoughts

[mjemirzian]

I've finished Naoya, Amane, and Yuzu's routes at lv 50 without playing each Free Battle more than once. I wasn't using a guide to pick all the 'right' choices so I didn't unlock the other routes. Keep in mind this was my first playthrough, I didn't feel the need to restart the game to play more efficiently.

Most of the difficulty in this game is micromanaging your demons. There's almost no strategy involved with the non-boss missions. If your party is well maintained all you have to do is mow down whatever enemies get in your way.

The bosses are the only encounters that you need to plan ahead a little bit and use certain skills or strategies for.

This game is yet another average difficulty (at best) SRPG that people whine about needing to grind in, even though with proper party management it is not necessary at all.

I found the most annoying part of the game was the sluggish UI and combat speed. Developers working on an SRPG need to take a look at Intelligent Systems SRPGs with highly responsive UIs and fast paced combat speed.

Anyway it's still worth $30 if you like SRPGs.

[Gen Eric Gui]

How many times do we have to repeat that "informing the average gamer that he might have trouble with the game" != "complaining that the game is too hard".

Most of the reviews I've read have suggested that you might need to grind later, and if you don't manage your demons well you probably will have to. If you're the kind of person who gets S ratings your first time through Advance Campaign, you probably won't. This isn't really that hard to understand.

But whatever, I do agree with you that the game isn't really all that difficult outside of the boss battles.

[Tsuko]

How do i beat Beldr on day 3?, i am having trouble getting to him and having enough health to down him

[mjemirzian]

There's actually a few reviews on gamestats that go beyond 'the average gamer' and just plain assume that skilled players don't exist. None of the reviews I read associated party management with having to grind, they just assumed it was because the content was too challenging, not because they messed up their party.

RPGamers review is one but I already covered that.. also they aren't listed on gamestats.

http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3174936&p=39
"You'll need to accept that, no matter how adept your tactical RPG skills, you'll be employing plenty of trial-and-error in Devil Survivor." Wrong, absolutist statement. Also there is very little trial and error in the game, even with fusion.

http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/Shin_Megami_Tensei_Devil_Survivor/index.html
"I grew frustratingly tired with how much excess grinding I was forced to do toward the end of the game." Funny, I didn't know the game put a gun to your head and 'forced' you to grind.

[mjemirzian]

How do i beat Beldr on day 3?, i am having trouble getting to him and having enough health to down him

Put the MC with a Mahakala for Might Call and/or a Nalagiri for Double Up will help do more damage. That will let you attack twice with Devil Fuge per turn. Bring some healers with Affection which is the best ranged heal in the game.

The demons he summons mid battle won't attack anyone, they just head straight for the MC. If you can kill Beldr before they reach him, you can ignore them.

Also Dances of any kind are the most effective at taking out normal enemies.

[Tsuko]

How do i beat Beldr on day 3?, i am having trouble getting to him and having enough health to down him

Put the MC with a Mahakala for Might Call and/or a Nalagiri for Double Up will help do more damage. That will let you attack twice with Devil Fuge per turn. Bring some healers with Affection which is the best ranged heal in the game.

The demons he summons mid battle won't attack anyone, they just head straight for the MC. If you can kill Beldr before they reach him, you can ignore them.

Also Dances of any kind are the most effective at taking out normal enemies.

ok thanks for the help

[Gen Eric Gui]

One thought:

What exactly does "Only did each free battle once" mean, exactly? Technically, there is a completely new Free battle(And often a second "hard" one as well) after almost every story-related battle. Doing each one once would mean an awful lot of "grinding".

[mjemirzian]

Actually there's 5 different free battles available every day, changing at 13:30 and 16:30. Not a lot of grinding.

[heyitskeith]

http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3174936&p=39
"You'll need to accept that, no matter how adept your tactical RPG skills, you'll be employing plenty of trial-and-error in Devil Survivor." Wrong, absolutist statement. Also there is very little trial and error in the game, even with fusion.

http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/Shin_Megami_Tensei_Devil_Survivor/index.html
"I grew frustratingly tired with how much excess grinding I was forced to do toward the end of the game." Funny, I didn't know the game put a gun to your head and 'forced' you to grind.[/QUOTE]

Sure guy.... I was supposed to assume 400 demons were gunna appear from out of no where and take out my weaker characters kept in the back. That's called "trial and error." I happened to of love the battle conditions changing. It kept all the battles from "ok kill all the guys on team" to "how are you gunna get out of this one biatch!" Straight Fresh.

Which route did you beat with only a level 50 main character? Since this is the first playthrough your demons gotta be 10+ levels under the enemies so I'm curious what strat you went with.

[mjemirzian]

Um what?

Enemy reinforcements, if there are any, tend to trickle in one or two at a time. And it doesn't even matter if they die, since you can just revive them.

Strategy? Abuse drains, holy dance, tyrants, use the 90k in gold built up (not from grinding, but from macca bonuses) for lots of metami fusion and make demons with uber stats even though their levels aren't that high, etc.

You just need more experience with TBS/SRPG games. Learn all the systems and exploit them.

Anyway, my review:

Combat System/Level Design

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor is a SRPG with a hybrid combat system. Each unit on the map consists of up to 3 individual combatants. When combat is initiated between two units, the game switches to a 3v3 turn based fight where attack skills are used. Various skills can also be used outside of combat to heal/revive, buff, or debuff. This hybrid system is fairly well balanced and adds complexity to an otherwise bland SRPG.

Skills can be acquired from enemies by assigning your unit to kill the enemy holding the skill. This system adds another layer of strategy to the game, since killing that enemy with a non-assigned unit means you can't acquire it.

Finally, there is a rewards system that takes place at the end of every 3v3 fight. More efficient slaying of enemies is rewarded with extra funds and the ability to give demons new skills. It's a fair system that is well integrated into the game and provides an alternative to level/skill grinding.

The games battle animations and movement cannot be sped up or skipped. For SRPG veterans spoiled on Intelligent Systems fast paced and responsive combat progression and user interface, this game is a drag in comparison.

Almost every non-boss battle is just a smattering of generic enemies that can be defeated by rushing forward and attacking anything that moves. There are no spread out start positions that make the player consider where to place their units, and no need for specialized teams for difficult groups of enemies. Most of the boss fights do require some strategy and planning to clear, however.

It is possible to level grind and save/reload abuse quicksaves, although it's not necessary to complete the game.


Micromanagement

The micromanagement between battles consists of equipping skills, swapping party members, purchasing demons at the auction, and fusing demons together to create new ones.

Each of the four PC humans are flanked by two demons that can be bought, created and customized through the games auction and fusion systems. The game allows for a wide variety of party setups depending on the players intended strategy.

The Fusion process involves merging two demons together, inheriting a portion of their stats and a selection of skills. Since demons cannot change their skills at will like humans, Fusion becomes an important system for keeping the most powerful abilities passed on from demon to demon as the game progresses. Most of the micromanagement in the game comes from studying fusion charts and creating strong demons with powerful skills through Fusion that tower over the generic, auction bought ones.

The auction is mostly a gimmick, as all you have to do is lowball the price by about 25-30% and you will immediately win the 'bid' as your CPU competitors give up. After the first day or two inside the game, the auction is only useful for purchasing demons that will be used only in Fusion to create stronger demons.

The Auction, Party, and Fusion menus are not integrated as efficiently as they could be for the task of researching and fusing demons. If you want to use the auction or check your party stats, you must back out of the Fusion menu entirely, which becomes tiring after a while.


Graphics/Sound/Plot

The plot features a time based system where the players choices over 7 'days' worth of time are critical for accessing different routes on day 7. If the player makes selfish, oblivious, or cowardly conversation choices or lets some optional characters die, they will be presented with only one ending route, which happens to be the easiest. In order to access all of the routes the player more or less needs to use a guide, since some of the 'right' choices to access that route can be far from obvious.

It's refreshing how the various routes the player is allowed to choose are morally ambiguous and tied to various competing factions in the game, instead of the usual one way trip to kill the 'evil final boss' to make everything all rainbows and sunshine again.

The games graphics are functional, standard DS fare. Some of the demon art design is interesting, but otherwise the graphics are unremarkable. The music consists of some surprisingly catchy heavy metal and rock, with lots of guitar thrashing. This choice in music works well with the apocalyptic 'survive or die' plot.


Overall

Despite the games drawbacks, there is fun to be had, especially some of the final battles that pit you against steep opposition.

[DarkFuture]

If you don't think that this game needs some 'intensive' grinding, try beating the optional boss Lucifer without doing Free Battles.

[mjemirzian]

I haven't fought him but he does sound very difficult.

But since he's hidden, optional, and lv 99, I'm inclined to think the developers don't necessarily intend for the player to defeat him on a New Game, maybe a New Game+ instead.

[illogicaldreamr]

You gave a fair review, I think, pointing out the flaws and strengths of the game. So far I have only done one free battle on hard setting on the 2nd day. It was more of a choice, rather than a necessity. I just wanted to see if I could beat it.

[Iris]

If you don't think that this game needs some 'intensive' grinding, try beating the optional boss Lucifer without doing Free Battles.

He's optional for a reason, though! I don't think any grinding required to beat an uber-boss should count in a general discussion of whether the game is grind-intensive; that's like saying FFVII is a grindfest just because Emerald Weapon is hard.

[Silverevilchao]

If you don't think that this game needs some 'intensive' grinding, try beating the optional boss Lucifer without doing Free Battles.

He's optional for a reason, though! I don't think any grinding required to beat an uber-boss should count in a general discussion of whether the game is grind-intensive; that's like saying FFVII is a grindfest just because Emerald Weapon is hard.

Or that FFX is a grindfest because of the absolutely murderous optional bosses (haha, Omega Weapon).

[Syrione]

I found the most annoying part of the game was the sluggish UI and combat speed. Developers working on an SRPG need to take a look at Intelligent Systems SRPGs with highly responsive UIs and fast paced combat speed.


This is the only part of your statement I don't agree with. Cause I found Fire Emblems' and Tearing Saga's UI more sluggish . You probably referring to Advance Wars UI not all Intelligent Systems SRPG's. Combat Speed also does not follow as it's a choice based design versus a asynchronous black box combat.

[Shaack]

I just went through the game twice(Amane and Naoya), and the only semi-complaint I have is this:

What's the point of strength stat?

Yeah, it increases damage for some of the physical attacks, but the strongest phys attack by far (deathbound) is based on vitality, not strength. In fact, all attacks that's based on your health is dependent on vit and has nothing to do with strength.
So is there any point in getting strength except for wielding certain skills?

[moss257]

Just went through it 4 times. (Amane, Naoya, Yuzu, Gin) And I have to say... I love Gin's ending the most. Sure Amane's ending is better, story wise. But I like how the world ends up in Gin's ending.

Also, all I have left is Atsuro and Kaido, what happens if you finish it on Kaido's? Does his character go on the title screen or does it count as a Naoya ending?

[Syrione]

Also, all I have left is Atsuro and Kaido, what happens if you finish it on Kaido's? Does his character go on the title screen or does it count as a Naoya ending?

His pic will be on the title screen.

[moss257]

But theres only one room left. Will he replace Haru?

[Syrione]

My bad apparently Kaido's pic doesn't appear in the title screen. Just finished that path.

[moss257]

Thank you very much! I was gonna play through it 2 more times and I don't feel like it... Now only one more time and I have it completed!!!

Not 100% But... I'm happy :D
Technicly it would be 100% in demon collection and title screen I just won't see Kaido's ending. Eh I'll youtube it :D

[mjemirzian]

This is the only part of your statement I don't agree with. Cause I found Fire Emblems' and Tearing Saga's UI more sluggish . You probably referring to Advance Wars UI not all Intelligent Systems SRPG's. Combat Speed also does not follow as it's a choice based design versus a asynchronous black box combat.

The UI for handheld FE games is just as responsive as Advance Wars.

Combat speed is definitely a factor. I don't want to have to watch the same slow 10 seconds of simple sprite animations every time I finish inputting my commands. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Syrione]

The UI for handheld FE games is just as responsive as Advance Wars.

Combat speed is definitely a factor. I don't want to have to watch the same slow 10 seconds of simple sprite animations every time I finish inputting my commands. You don't know what you're talking about.

You don't seem to know what a choice based battle and a black box battle is then. And it's not 10 secs it about 5. And there are no sprite animations in combat there are visual effects(spells, hit effect and sprite shake) their different. I do get what you saying you wanted a no combat scene feature (where usually only the numbers pop-out).

And FE games have bad out of battle UI. In battle it's not far off to this if you had 3 in an attacking party.

[mjemirzian]

You haven't played FE10 where you can set the combat to 'turbo' mode where only the numbers show, not even overhead animations. Or FE DS where you can set a similar option. You can stop pretending you know what you're talking about now.

Your argument that they don't need an option to speed up the combat animations because 'it goes to another screen' is invalid and illogical. There is no excuse for making the player wait around watching the same 10 boring seconds of combat animations and screen shaking every fight, whether it's on the overhead map or in a different combat screen.

If I didn't have an emulator to play my legit purchased copy on and speed things up, I doubt I would have finished the game. It's too slow for skilled players used to faster UIs.

[Syrione]

You haven't played FE10 where you can set the combat to 'turbo' mode where only the numbers show, not even overhead animations. Or FE DS where you can set a similar option. You can stop pretending you know what you're talking about now.

Your argument that they don't need an option to speed up the combat animations because 'it goes to another screen' is invalid and illogical. There is no excuse for making the player wait around watching the same 10 boring seconds of combat animations and screen shaking every fight, whether it's on the overhead map or in a different combat screen.

If I didn't have an emulator to play my legit purchased copy on and speed things up, I doubt I would have finished the game. It's too slow for skilled players used to faster UIs.

I played all english Fire Emblems even the Japanese ones. Even played Tearing Saga.

Also note that you said they should copy intelligent systems is wrong cause it was not IS that started no animation combat but Banpresto with SRW.

As seen on your post you don't know a thing about game design at all (battle in SMT: DS has no animation only special effects as I posted before, sprite shake is not animation).

The speed up is not even that big an issue on average a battle is 5 secs. not 10 (10 is the longest I've ever had in a combat sequence and thats' like 2/10 and 1/50 (in new game+) attacks.

[Rednusander]

If you insist on arguing, please remember to stay civil. There's no need for personal attacks.

[mjemirzian]

> I played all english Fire Emblems even the Japanese ones.

Yet you forgot about the things I mentioned? FE and AW have comparably fast and responsive UIs, combat speed, and options to speed up combat, and you have said nothing to prove otherwise.

> it was not IS that started no animation combat but Banpresto with SRW.

Wrong. The original Fire Emblem (1990) had an option to speed up combat.

> As seen on your post you don't know a thing about game design at all (battle in SMT: DS has no animation only special effects as I posted before, sprite shake is not animation)

Playing irrelevant semantics with words minced with personal insults is trolling. I can tell English isn't your first language so maybe you should just stop talking about the difference between 'special effects' and 'animations'.

> The speed up is not even that big an issue on average a battle is 5 secs.

Wrong. It's at least 7-10 secs even in the faster combat sequences. This is exasperated by the fact that for most of the game you are just mowing down generic enemies on the way to a boss. First you excused the game because 'it went to another screen', now you're down to 'it's not a big deal' and exaggerating. There's no excuse for not including a speed up option.

[Syrione]

> I played all english Fire Emblems even the Japanese ones.

Yet you forgot about the things I mentioned? FE and AW have comparably fast and responsive UIs, combat speed, and options to speed up combat, and you have said nothing to prove otherwise.

> it was not IS that started no animation combat but Banpresto with SRW.

Wrong. The original Fire Emblem (1990) had an option to speed up combat.

> As seen on your post you don't know a thing about game design at all (battle in SMT: DS has no animation only special effects as I posted before, sprite shake is not animation)

Playing irrelevant semantics with words minced with personal insults is trolling. I can tell English isn't your first language so maybe you should just stop talking about the difference between 'special effects' and 'animations'.

> The speed up is not even that big an issue on average a battle is 5 secs.

Wrong. It's at least 7-10 secs even in the faster combat sequences. This is exasperated by the fact that for most of the game you are just mowing down generic enemies on the way to a boss. First you excused the game because 'it went to another screen', now you're down to 'it's not a big deal' and exaggerating. There's no excuse for not including a speed up option.

FE's UI is bad out of battle in terms of per click to achieve what you want plus the fact that a lot of characters and items inventory get messy in the UI. I thought I didn't need to point that out.

Hmm, memory must be get the best of me but if I recall correctly, they added that on shadow dragon (and that the GC game was the first one to have no animation battle) . But I may be wrong long time since I replayed FE 1.

And special effects and animation are not semantics and are 2 different things.

I don't know about you but my game 5 secs is the longest I get 10 on boss battles and special cases. I'm playing it on a NDS. Emulation unless you have a strong PC will lag a bit but you do have frame speed options though.