"Devil Summoner 4"

[Ike.]

Something I've noticed since the release of this game (and vs. Soulless Army to a lesser extent) is that people are referring to Soulless Army as "Devil Summoner 3" and King Abaddon as "Devil Summoner 4."

For those not in the know, two other Devil Summoner games were released in Japan and never made it across the pond, Devil Summoner and Devil Summoner: Soul Hackers, colloquially Devil Summoner 1 and 2.

Now, when people go calling Raidou 1 and 2 "Devil Summoner 3/4," it gets confusing as all hell, just like when the Final Fantasy series having FF4 and 6 being renamed to 2 and 3.

I'm asking for some clarification on whether Raidou is officially part of the Devil Summoner series or not and whether or not calling them DS 3 and 4 is accurate or not. It seems to me that Raidou is its own separate series that happens to share a similar name. I think that they should be referred to as the Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha games rather than just Devil Summoner titles (as one would refer to "Magic Knight Rayearth," as in, a magic knight named Rayearth), since they play out in an entirely different fashion than the other Devil Summoners.

Thoughts?

[Ideon]

:agree: I feel the same about P3/4

[Ike.]

Well, that's not quite the same, because P3 and P4 are just that: Persona 3 and 4.

[Inzaghi]

Now, when people go calling Raidou 1 and 2 "Devil Summoner 3/4," it gets confusing as all hell, just like when the Final Fantasy series having FF4 and 6 being renamed to 2 and 3.

I'm asking for some clarification on whether Raidou is officially part of the Devil Summoner series or not and whether or not calling them DS 3 and 4 is accurate or not. It seems to me that Raidou is its own separate series that happens to share a similar name.

Well, unlike the "Shin Megami Tensei" branding that's added for the US names, both the Raidou games definitely are officially part of the Devil Summoner series in their Japanese titles. However, none of the Devil Summoner games have technically been numbered in Japan, so DS2 is really as "correct" as DS4. Personally speaking, I try to call them Raidou 1 and 2 so as to minimize confusion, but I think in general, if someone refers to DS2 now, it's obvious what they mean. I never heard of any importer or old-school Megaten fan calling Soul Hackers "DS2," they usually just say "Soul Hackers."

[Pibbman]

Personally I think the US version makes sense calling it the way it is, because the same characters exist in both of them. While from my understanding the first one was entirely different characters, not sure about the second one in japan, since I haven't read anything about it other than it having a cyberpunk theme.

I wonder if Gouto-Douji was in the first two since in Soulless Army. it was mentioned that he has been the "Raidou's" line mentor since the 2nd or 3rd Raidou Kuzunoha (I forget which it was) Raidou Kazunoha in Soulless Army. Which should tell you a bit about his hidden history.

[unknown]

The Raidou games are actually prequels to Devil Summoner 1, and Soul Hackers, which are set in the future.

The Raidou games might be connected to the main SMT storyline (The main antagonist of the Raidou 1 game, was a Raidou from the future who was a Templar in SMTII's world I think, and in the final level of the game there are hourglasses that talk about the events that will happen in SMTI and SMTII) and possibly to the Persona storyline (Not sure about this at all, but apparently the future Raidou's attempt to change the past so that SMTI and SMTII would never happen, though stopped by Raidou the 14th, was enough to change the timeline to bring about the Persona timeline, hence the presence of the Kuzunoha agency in P1 and P2, which may explain why Lucifer shows up in Raidou 2, to get the timeline).

But yeah, I'm not sure about the validity of the spoilers I posted, I got a lot of this info from reading various message boards and theories from people who played the Nocturne w/Raidou edition and finished Raidou 2 before it came out in the US.

As for the Raidou + older Devil Summoner game connections, a book was released that indicated there were 4 Kuzunoha titles in total, Raidou, Geirin, Kyouji, and one other that hasn't been revealed yet. Raidou of course shows up in the Raidou games, along with Geirin, and Kyouji was the main character of Devil Summoner 1, and a summoner with that title also shows up in the Raidou Prequel Novel.

[DamageCity]

Personally I think if a game has a subtitle like RK vs. KA, it doesn't need a number.

[Kenji]

I'm not sure why people insist on saying (minor RKvs.SA spoilers) that avoiding the SMTI/II future automatically leads to Personaverse... after all, at least one of the two original Devil Summoner games note the lack of a nuclear holocaust, meaning that it's also an alternative to the SMTI/II timeline (though, to be honest, I don't know if DS/Soul Hackers and the Persona series are in different timelines or not).

It seems to me, though, that the Raidou subseries is positioning itself as the crossroads from which all main MegaTen continuities spawn, through minor changes that Raidou the 14th can effect personally.

There's a timeline gestalt from a Raidou fanbook I have a jpeg of. I ought to post it for reference.

[unknown]

I think people insist on saying that because they don't know much about the Devil Summoner timeline and just automatically assume the alternative. >___>

Also post the jpeg! And post a brief summary or translation of it too please.

[Kenji]

Minor spoilers of various MegaTen titles follow:

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5742/raidoufanbookmegatentim.jpg
As I noted in the GameFAQs forum I got this image from, it's not particularly detailed or clear just exactly how the different series relate to each other (it does make sense on a general level, though).

Apparently, vs. the Soulless Army is the initial event, which branches off into the main SMT series (right large block) and the modern-day Devil Summoner series (block to the immediate left of SMT). It could be (though it's not clear), that the Persona series (the two leftmost blocks) is a further divergence from Devil Summoner, but it is making it clear that the two series aren't in the same timeline. Now, whether Persona diverges from the Raidou subseries or from some other, unspecified event is unclear. Persona 2 is divided into separate timelines, as is clear to anyone who's read up or booted up Eternal Punishment. However, the way in which the diagram is arranged does make it clear that P1 is relevant to both iterations of P2. I assume P3 and P4 continue from Eternal Punishment... but I haven't finished EP, so I can't claim that adequately. Nocturne isn't part of the main SMT timeline (obviously), but exactly how it diverges is left intentionally unclear... though I have my hunches. :P

Also, if I may add some hearsay, Megami Tensei occurs in the SMT timeline, since the PSX version of SMT implies that Akemi Nakajima gave Pascal to The Hero, and Megami Tensei II is an alternate timeline that diverges based on whether an ICBM hits a particular shelter in the Great Destruction or not (also hinted in the PSX version of SMT).

No mention of Digital Devil Saga's place in this timeline, but all things considered, it's probably another timeline divergence rather than a new Vortex World (the Junkyard, depending on how you see things, might count as a "miniature" Vortex World, hinting further at the way our world is). That said, it's a fairly far divergence since YHVH and Lucifer aren't dominant factors (noted by the Seraphim in DDS2).

I'm also puzzled by the placement of Shin Megami Tensei If..., which is featured in the SMT timeline rather than the Persona timeline, despite the presence of Tamaki Uchida in both. While this is more palatable than accepting that Tamaki is a presence that exists in multiple Vortex Worlds, I'm still not entirely comfortable with the notion of her appearing in two separate timelines that may have diverged as far back as 1931.

Oh, and I can't read the paragraph on the top left, so if anyone can, please share.

[raiku]

from what i was told, if... and persona take place in a parallel universe where the missiles in the first game didnt go off

[Kenji]

I think Devil Summoner 1 notes this.

P2 and P3 pretty much make it clear that Persona and the SMT timeline aren't one and the same. As for If..., I seem to recall it occurring before the date that SMT starts, so it could fit there or elsewhere. I'd prefer to think of it as "Persona Zero," but if Atlus Japan claims otherwise, then I have no choice but to deal with it.

[Enzeru]

I assume P3 and P4 continue from Eternal Punishment... but I haven't finished EP, so I can't claim that adequately.
This is confirmed; all Personas are in the same timeline.

As for the topic at hand, I agree with Damage City.

[Ike.]

I think Devil Summoner 1 notes this.

P2 and P3 pretty much make it clear that Persona and the SMT timeline aren't one and the same. As for If..., I seem to recall it occurring before the date that SMT starts, so it could fit there or elsewhere. I'd prefer to think of it as "Persona Zero," but if Atlus Japan claims otherwise, then I have no choice but to deal with it.

Given that If...'s heroine appears in Persona 2, I'd say that the parallel universe theory (with Persona being an extension of If...) has some solidarity to it.

[raiku]

i think its the easiest and most logical solution to this debate

[Zacek]

This is a little confusing... it's official this relation between the games?

[SlaughterX]

So what's the excuse for us not getting the DS they rereleased on the PSP over here again? I wonder could that change if this new DS sells better than expected somehow?

[Kenji]

Supposedly, Sony wouldn't allow it because Devil Summoner was just a port. I don't think the sales of vs. King Abaddon will have any effect, if that's the case.

That said, I would love to play the original DS in English.