A question about AC

[Zachalmighty]

Is it good to have more or less AC? It seems for some god forsaken reason that my mage and priest has more AC than my thief and Warrior. Thanks!

[White Rob]

The lower the AC the better. It can even go into negative numbers (which is good). You'll notice the priest class has skills that lower your AC. It certainly wouldn't make much sense for that class to have something like that if higher AC was better.

[Zachalmighty]

The lower the AC the better. It can even go into negative numbers (which is good). You'll notice the priest class has skills that lower your AC. It certainly wouldn't make much sense for that class to have something like that if higher AC was better.

Thats what I had gathered. Thanks for confirming!

[BadYeti]

Woah, you have the game already? Do you mind if I ask which store you got it from? I preordered it with overnight shipping from Amazon and they haven't even shipped it yet. :( If someone else is already carrying it I could save a few bucks by getting it there and canceling the expensive (and apparently slow) overnight shipping.

[Zachalmighty]

Woah, you have the game already? Do you mind if I ask which store you got it from? I preordered it with overnight shipping from Amazon and they haven't even shipped it yet. :( If someone else is already carrying it I could save a few bucks by getting it there and canceling the expensive (and apparently slow) overnight shipping.

I got it from Gamestop. They called my cell yesterday saying the game would be in today so I went and got it after classes let out.

[BadYeti]

Thanks for the info!

[jeffx]

Going to EB Games in 3, 2, 1...

[Tivor]

Reiterating my sig........

C'mon, Amazon! Ship it already!!

*grrrr*

[BadYeti]

Out of curiosity, does the game or its manual provide enough information about the various classes and skills that a player could reliably map out a plan for his party or will the player need to figure things out by trial and error?

For example, will a player know things like which classes are restricted to specific alignments or races and what the special abilities are of the secondary classes?

Thanks much for any info.

[Decept]

^Go here

http://www.atlus.com/darkspire/

Go to system, character creation.

It will answer all of these questions hopefully.

[getter77]

Yep, I cracked and ordered it from Amazon today after hearing the music in the youtube clip showing the Trainer fight. Free Super Saver shipping in my case though with them estimating a ship date of the 22nd...but really it is random with Amazon as sometimes I got stuff within a day or so despite going for the free shipping.

[Zachalmighty]

I Just bought something from a guy on the first floor called "important item" any idea what its for?

[Futomimi]

To the people in this thread who ordered from Amazon: Amazon is really slow about shipping preorders 99% of the time. No sales tax and free shipping is nice, though.

[PeteDorr]

Hey guys, I checked the entire manual and never remember it being mentioned in the game, but what exactly does AC even do? what variables bring it up and down? advantages to being lower? disadvantages to being higher?

Does praying at the temple do anything for it as well? thanks guys.

[four_black_hearts]

Armor Class. Usually represents both the strength of your armor, and the difficulty enemies have hitting you! ;)

[PeteDorr]

I'm confused as to why having a negative AC would be better though? How is this number adjusted, just by the equipment you wear? if someone could give a little in depth look at AC that would be great because the manual and game seem to have left an explaination of it out.

[Tivor]

I'm confused as to why having a negative AC would be better though? How is this number adjusted, just by the equipment you wear? if someone could give a little in depth look at AC that would be great because the manual and game seem to have left an explaination of it out.

Armor class (AC) is a stat from the Dungeons & Dragons days.

In D&D, every monster had a stat called THAC0 ("To Hit Armor Class 0"). You subtract your AC from this stat, and you roll a dice (20-sided dice), and if the dice roll comes up SAME or HIGHER than the result, then the monster HITS you. If the dice roll comes up LOWER, then the monster MISSES.

For example, if a monster has THAC0 of 10, and your AC is 7, then 10 - 7 = 3, so the monster has to roll 3 or higher on a 20-sided dice to hit you.

But if your AC was -1, then 10 - (-1) = 11, so that same monster would need to roll 11 or higher to hit you. Much more difficult than having to roll 3 or higher.

Hence, the lower your AC, the better defense you have.

In D&D, an unarmed human has AC of +10, and every piece of armor lowers that number.

I don't think the current version of Dungeons & Dragons employs this system. Dark Spire's "the lower, the better" Armor Class system is a clear throwback to the olden days. :)

[PeteDorr]

OK thank you, that cleared it up for me. So I now see how valuable the mages AC + - spells are.

[BadYeti]

From one of the screenshots on the official webpage, I can see that the secondary classes are given some unique benefits. The example on the published screenshot is that Ninjas can "instantly kill an opponent".

Does anyone happen to know what the other secondary classes' unique abilities are, if that question isn't considered too much of a spoiler?

[Zachalmighty]

From one of the screenshots on the official webpage, I can see that the secondary classes are given some unique benefits. The example on the published screenshot is that Ninjas can "instantly kill an opponent".

Does anyone happen to know what the other secondary classes' unique abilities are, if that question isn't considered too much of a spoiler?

I don't think anyone is far enough to have multiclassed to be able to tell you.

[BadYeti]

From one of the screenshots on the official webpage, I can see that the secondary classes are given some unique benefits. The example on the published screenshot is that Ninjas can "instantly kill an opponent".

Does anyone happen to know what the other secondary classes' unique abilities are, if that question isn't considered too much of a spoiler?

I don't think anyone is far enough to have multiclassed to be able to tell you.
Okay. Thanks for the information!

I was hoping the information might be in the manual or available through some form of in-game help. I guess I'll just have to wait until Amazon comes through with my pre-order and figure out through trial and error.

[Zachalmighty]

From one of the screenshots on the official webpage, I can see that the secondary classes are given some unique benefits. The example on the published screenshot is that Ninjas can "instantly kill an opponent".

Does anyone happen to know what the other secondary classes' unique abilities are, if that question isn't considered too much of a spoiler?

I don't think anyone is far enough to have multiclassed to be able to tell you.
Okay. Thanks for the information!

I was hoping the information might be in the manual or available through some form of in-game help. I guess I'll just have to wait until Amazon comes through with my pre-order and figure out through trial and error.
In-game help? LOL! I wish!

[Zarathustra]

I'm confused as to why having a negative AC would be better though? How is this number adjusted, just by the equipment you wear? if someone could give a little in depth look at AC that would be great because the manual and game seem to have left an explaination of it out.

Armor class (AC) is a stat from the Dungeons & Dragons days.

In D&D, every monster had a stat called THAC0 ("To Hit Armor Class 0"). You subtract your AC from this stat, and you roll a dice (20-sided dice), and if the dice roll comes up SAME or HIGHER than the result, then the monster HITS you. If the dice roll comes up LOWER, then the monster MISSES.

For example, if a monster has THAC0 of 10, and your AC is 7, then 10 - 7 = 3, so the monster has to roll 3 or higher on a 20-sided dice to hit you.

But if your AC was -1, then 10 - (-1) = 11, so that same monster would need to roll 11 or higher to hit you. Much more difficult than having to roll 3 or higher.

Hence, the lower your AC, the better defense you have.

In D&D, an unarmed human has AC of +10, and every piece of armor lowers that number.

I don't think the current version of Dungeons & Dragons employs this system. Dark Spire's "the lower, the better" Armor Class system is a clear throwback to the olden days. :)

This is very helpful for those of us that do not have D&D backgrounds. Could you answer another related question? Is there a calculus trade-off for armor vs. AC. For instance Chainmail is said to provide greater protection but AC= -4 so that makes a person easier to hit. Yet, the game doesn't give any guidance as to how one should balance the tradeoff between greater likelihood of being hit vs. greater protection whenever your hit. Is there something from within D&D that could help with this since Dark Spire doesn't say much about it? Thank you in advance

[King Frost]

Is there a calculus trade-off for armor vs. AC. For instance Chainmail is said to provide greater protection but AC= -4 so that makes a person easier to hit. Yet, the game doesn't give any guidance as to how one should balance the tradeoff between greater likelihood of being hit vs. greater protection whenever your hit. Is there something from within D&D that could help with this since Dark Spire doesn't say much about it? Thank you in advance

The answer you are looking for depends on the stats of the enemy and how much luck you are willing to accept. I can't play the game yet, so I'm going to say something purely theoretical. Let's say you have 2 setups, one with Armor A and the other one with Armor B. You also have 2 monsters, Y and Z. Here are the stats:

A: AC 0, Damage -5
B: AC 5, Damage -10
Y: THAC0 10, Damage 15
Z: THAC0 15, Damage 25

Let's also say you have 13 HPs max. The "To Hit" chance is going to be calculated as in D&D like described above.

A vs. Y: 50% chance to hit, will take 10 damages so you are dead in 2 hits. In average, you are going to survive 3 rounds.
B vs. Y: 75% to hit, will take 5 damages so you will die in 3 hits. In average, you will survive 4 rounds.

A vs. Z: 25% to hit, will take 1 hit to die. You will survive in average 4 rounds.
B vs. Z: 50% to hit, will take 1 hit to die. You will survive in average 2 rounds.

In this case, Armor A is better against foe Z, but Armor B is better against Y.

Note: I'm very well aware that my analysis is mathematically very flawed, however, I don't feel like digging for the real probabilities formulas today, I'm just trying to say with basic numbers that some armors will be better against some foes depending on the stats of the said foe.

EDIT: I don't recall that armors do reduce damage in D&D, at least up to AD&D 2nd edition. I guess the damage reduction stuff is specific to Dark Spire.

[Gen Eric Gui]

For instance Chainmail is said to provide greater protection but AC= -4 so that makes a person easier to hit.Um, that's not how AC works? -4 AC is a GOOD thing, that makes your character HARDER to hit. Unless you are talking about Chainmail vs. Platemail or something, in which case, the Platemail should be universally better because it's AC-5 and plates>rings in general RPG sense.

Generally speaking the only thing you should care about is having your AC as low as humanly possible. My Warrior has -7 AC and he hardly ever gets hit, and when he does he takes barely any damage. With him in Heroic formation my party hardly ever takes damage from physical attacks.

[Zachalmighty]

IN Neverwinter Nights 2, the game uses the newer D&D rules and higher AC is better than lower which is why I was also confused when I first started this game.

[Gen Eric Gui]

I was referring to Zarathustra's post, where he quoted a post explaining how AC worked and yet asked a question that suggested he hadn't read what he quoted.

[ProtheonX]

Thanks for the help. I never played D&D and now I know why maybe I should have. Wow I bet when I finally play D&D Tactics on PSP I will be lost.

[White Rob]

As for the guy asking about secondary classes... If you can go secondary, do it. You get huge multipliers on the bonuses of the equipment that those classes can wear IIRC.

[Zarathustra]

I was referring to Zarathustra's post, where he quoted a post explaining how AC worked and yet asked a question that suggested he hadn't read what he quoted.


You're right. I meant to indicate when armor raises your AC but seems to offer more protection. So here's what I meant. There's a piece of armor and AC=+4 so your frontline warrior is now easier to hit but here's wearing better armor - I wanted to know if there's a better way to balance tradeoffs since the game doesn't give precise states as a JRPG does, i.e. DEF +8. Thanks for correcting that.