Give us Japanese Languages!

[Churchill]

A plea

A beg

An imploring message

Please for all that is holy stop doing English language dubbing with English language subtitles. Give us that glorious japanese language with English subtitles, the inflections the sounds are much more authentic and realistic, I'm tired of hearing the horrible butchery that comes from these translations.

I know it's not from lack of space, torrent files of the games show these games aren't pushing the 9GB barrier here, how hard would it be to cram an additional 100+mb of sound into the game and give us that OPTION of Japanese with English Subtitles like so many other games have.

This would cause me to buy more games, flat out, instead of waiting till they hit the bargin bin. I can't stand watching JRPG style games with english dubbing it's painful to watch, and worse to experience.

[Sagadego]

you're not gonna last long with bashing of the dubs

[SickleCellAnemia]

Would you like some tea? I would, because I'm Winston Churchill! Would you like a crumpet? I would, because I'm Winston Churchill!

[Sagadego]

poppycock, i rather have some crackers.

[kelvinc]

For every one of you that can't stand the English dubs, there's someone like me who will not even consider playing a Japanese VO game.

Here's a question: do you dream in English or Japanese with English subtitles?
Everyone in my dreams speak a language that I actually understand. Speaking a language that I understand improves my sense of immersion into the game.

I think Atlus is in a better position to bring over dual track games because most of what they localize is actually set in Japan. But if, say, Disgaea or FF characters started speaking to me in Japanese, then all I'm going to think about is "why do these people speak Japanese?" (Especially something like FF, because the characters look Caucasian.)

In your case it's different. You'd rather have more authenticity in the voices at the expense of not actually understanding what they're saying. (And, may I add, that any translated subtitles will not fully convey the original Japanese nuances anyway.) I appreciate that, but I wish you'd not demand Atlus to "stop doing English language dubbing."

[Fuyukaze]

Could always do what I do. Screw music, screw voices, just turn the TV on mute and you never have to worry about how god awfull the voices may or may not sound. Though in the end, your paying for something you'll never enjoy, at the very least it's only a small part of the game as a whole.

[Onion of Mystery]

I think one point that needs to be addressed is that "localization" is more than just "translation." Sometimes characters in the English versions don't say the exact same line as in the original Japanese. Jokes get revised, lines get moved around for smoother reading, and we craft the dialogue to make more sense and provide a more enjoyable experience to an English-speaking (and -reading) player.

Of course, then we'd hear no end of "Your English translations aren't excatly what they're saying, you guys suck" complaints. You can't please everybody.

[Decept]

I think one point that needs to be addressed is that "localization" is more than just "translation." Sometimes characters in the English versions don't say the exact same line as in the original Japanese. Jokes get revised, lines get moved around for smoother reading, and we craft the dialogue to make more sense and provide a more enjoyable experience to an English-speaking (and -reading) player.

Of course, then we'd hear no end of "Your English translations aren't excatly what they're saying, you guys suck" complaints. You can't please everybody.

^Most important part, and it pretty much applies to everything.

[Olethros]

I think one point that needs to be addressed is that "localization" is more than just "translation." Sometimes characters in the English versions don't say the exact same line as in the original Japanese. Jokes get revised, lines get moved around for smoother reading, and we craft the dialogue to make more sense and provide a more enjoyable experience to an English-speaking (and -reading) player.

Of course, then we'd hear no end of "Your English translations aren't excatly what they're saying, you guys suck" complaints. You can't please everybody.

Thanks Onion. I've been trying to explain that for a while but I think you explained it better than I have.

Also, I agree with Kevinc (a few posts above) 100%.

[Pibbman]

I think it has to do more with the voice themselves. Sometimes I play games with english voices, and it's horrible....as in the actor has no freakin' talent at all. The people that are hired just suck at it, and it's not exactly their fault entirely, as it's also the company who hired them too.

It'd be great if we could get truly talented hollywood actors, but we have to be realistic since those actors demand huge sums for their services. If you're gonna do english, have a TALENTED cast, not someone whose voice makes me wanna stab my ears.

I think for the people who ask for the japanese audio, it has to do more with what I said above. I'm fine either way, although I prefer the original, but if the english dub is of really high quality VA then I'm fine with that.

These days, especially with the next gen consoles offering much more space for data, there is really no reason NOT to have dual audio, sure it might end up costing more, but fans will appreciate it. Personally, I could care less if the games "published" by Atlus don't have dual audio, but the Atlus developed titles should have it.

[Manly Biceps]

I'd also like to point out, as I have mentioned here before, just because you know ONE reason that JP voices would not be included doesn't mean that you have any idea about ALL the reasons they aren't included. Space is far, far, FAR from the only reason JP voices don't make it over to the NA version.

Sometimes, when the stars align, we can put them in.

Stars don't like aligning all the time, though. Jerks.

[VMan]

Could always do what I do. Screw music, screw voices, just turn the TV on mute and you never have to worry about how god awfull the voices may or may not sound. Though in the end, your paying for something you'll never enjoy, at the very least it's only a small part of the game as a whole.

Screw music, too? Seriously? You're tough, man (or woman). I'm way too much of a audiophile to do that. Music (well audio in general) can be a VERY vital component to a game.

But to reiterate, it is important to realize what Onion of Mystery pointed out. A translation, in many ways, is an INTERPRETATION and not exactly a direct conversion, especially when it comes to some cultural references (if it was then the subtitles would look like they were written by some pre-schooler writing a fantasy novel).

An especially interesting thing I'd like to mention is (really just to throw out there), because the grammatical structure can differ so fundamentally, sometimes what is actually being said is not what is currently written on-screen in the subtitle. And in that case, unless you understand what is being said, its kinda funny (to me) the think about the fact that you're fooling yourself into thinking you're hearing something you're actually not.

Therein one can beg the question, if you don't understand what is being said, why do you desire it so strongly (I'm not actually asking, just mentioning a debate that comes up oh so often when it comes to localizations). I've heard countless reasons and I'm sure you have yours. But I'll just say again something I said in the topic regarding the importance of voice acting: quality voice acting is quality voice acting. Dialogue being spoken in a certain language does not make it inherently "better", however, maybe arguably more suitable based on character background. Personally, I've heard what I consider to be outstanding voice acting in both English and Japanese, and I've also heard what I'd considered to be sub-par voice acting in each language as well.

Pibbman brings up an important point, too: Its not only the actor/actresses who have the responsibility of, thus, should be held accountable for the quality of their voice work, its also the people that cast them in the first place. And if companies like Take-Two, Rockstar, Konami, Silicon Knights, Ubisoft, BioWare, Valve and such can be bring believable life to the characters of games like BioShock, Grand Theft Auto, Metal Gear Solid, Eternal Darkness, Beyond Good and Evil, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Half Life 2 and the like, I don't see many excuses that hold water with me as to why a company with the suitable resources can't follow suit if they really care about that aspect of the game.

Just my $.02

[VMan]

I'd also like to point out, as I have mentioned here before, just because you know ONE reason that JP voices would not be included doesn't mean that you have any idea about ALL the reasons they aren't included. Space is far, far, FAR from the only reason JP voices don't make it over to the NA version.

Sometimes, when the stars align, we can put them in.

Stars don't like aligning all the time, though. Jerks.

I don't know if you can or are willing to share this, but can you confirm if the localization budget (especially relative to sales targets) is often a key factor in such decisions?

[Manly Biceps]

It's not a key factor. It's a factor, but there are several larger factors in front of it.

[dungeon_man]

TC, you have the power to remedy this situation. Instead of complaining on a forum, you can learn the language, play the originals, and leave the "bad dubs" to us poor non-Japanese speakers.

If that's too much for you to handle, you'll have to accept the fact that a Japanese voice option is not always practical.

[poiuiu]

Is there really a point to having the original japanese track when 99.999999~% of players don't know a lick of what they're saying? What's the point in having voice when you end up reading it to understand anyway.

Good VA > nonsensical jargon; however the option to turn that off beats the pants off of either options. :p

[jeffx]

Dual Audio > Option to turn off English dub > English dub > not getting the damn game AT ALL.

Now that's my personal opinion... but isn't that something we can all agree on?? No one loses that way. No dual track I can understand, especially since they can require a ton of changes to the CODE, something that Atlus USA doesn't deal with at all!!! But in the first place, JPN devs should really learn to put in the VA on/off switch.

I still say that most VA is a total waste of time and money. I just want the damn game. I don't care about some fancy shmancy voice actor/actress telling me how some character should sound. Most of the time they ruin the experience anyway, in which case I can be seriously offended. SEE: TALES OF SYMPHONIA 2 which I quit right in the intro, without having fought a SINGLE battle. #### that game and its whiny little SOB "hero".

BRANDISHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[cj iwakura]

I prefer a dub if it's a good dub.

Now, if the dubbing is going to be awful, then don't bother, but this hasn't been a problem with Atlus USA in years... so, carry on. :)

[jeffx]

Sure their dubs are above par. But my ... problem is that I'm actually a very fast reader. Seriously. The best way I can describe it is that I take a mental picture of the whole text box and process it while I'm looking at the next one. It comes from my mom. Years ago, my girlfriend was offended because she got my mother a birthday card with a big thoughtful message in it, my mom opened it and closed it like a second later then said thanks, but the GF really thought that my mom ignored her text completely. No way, but that's teachers for ya (I come from a long line of educators and fully intend to retire as one)

ahhh boring story aside, all this to say that voice acting speeds down my reading process. I get very impatient when text isn't skippable or the game lacks the option to set its display speed to fast. I just can't stand it when the rhythm of a cut scene is imposed by some dweeb doing a half-assed job. So actually, today's news that CGS will contain 1000 lines of VA is kinda bad news to me, but oh well. As Onion said, can't please us all... completely! Because I'm always glad to hear Atlus has something new in stores for us. </ass kissing>

[four_black_hearts]

Chocolate and Peanut Butter!

[Fuyukaze]

Could always do what I do. Screw music, screw voices, just turn the TV on mute and you never have to worry about how god awfull the voices may or may not sound. Though in the end, your paying for something you'll never enjoy, at the very least it's only a small part of the game as a whole.

Screw music, too? Seriously? You're tough, man (or woman). I'm way too much of a audiophile to do that. Music (well audio in general) can be a VERY vital component to a game.

But to reiterate, it is important to realize what Onion of Mystery pointed out. A translation, in many ways, is an INTERPRETATION and not exactly a direct conversion, especially when it comes to some cultural references (if it was then the subtitles would look like they were written by some pre-schooler writing a fantasy novel).

An especially interesting thing I'd like to mention is (really just to throw out there), because the grammatical structure can differ so fundamentally, sometimes what is actually being said is not what is currently written on-screen in the subtitle. And in that case, unless you understand what is being said, its kinda funny (to me) the think about the fact that you're fooling yourself into thinking you're hearing something you're actually not.

Therein one can beg the question, if you don't understand what is being said, why do you desire it so strongly (I'm not actually asking, just mentioning a debate that comes up oh so often when it comes to localizations). I've heard countless reasons and I'm sure you have yours. But I'll just say again something I said in the topic regarding the importance of voice acting: quality voice acting is quality voice acting. Dialogue being spoken in a certain language does not make it inherently "better", however, maybe arguably more suitable based on character background. Personally, I've heard what I consider to be outstanding voice acting in both English and Japanese, and I've also heard what I'd considered to be sub-par voice acting in each language as well.

Pibbman brings up an important point, too: Its not only the actor/actresses who have the responsibility of, thus, should be held accountable for the quality of their voice work, its also the people that cast them in the first place. And if companies like Take-Two, Rockstar, Konami, Silicon Knights, Ubisoft, BioWare, Valve and such can be bring believable life to the characters of games like BioShock, Grand Theft Auto, Metal Gear Solid, Eternal Darkness, Beyond Good and Evil, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Half Life 2 and the like, I don't see many excuses that hold water with me as to why a company with the suitable resources can't follow suit if they really care about that aspect of the game.

Just my $.02
I guess my view is a bit odd. It's not that I'm so much attatched to Japanese voice work, just that sometimes the english voices have a horrid tone to them. Few things distract from a game like hearing a god awfull shrilly voice for a main female charcter or the horrid winy voice of some male charcter. Then again, I grew up on games where voice work didnt exist. Music has gotten much better but games often times have what, 40-60 music tracks thru the entire game? Sounds great but when your playing a game for 60-120 hours, even if it has 60 different songs, your listening to the same song for 1-2 hours each. As a number of those songs are reserved for certain parts of the game, you may only hear them a couple times tops. Hearing the same song on loop for hours drives me crazy. Imagine listening to your favorite song and putting it on repeat for a couple hours and it makes alot more sense.


I think one point that needs to be addressed is that "localization" is more than just "translation." Sometimes characters in the English versions don't say the exact same line as in the original Japanese. Jokes get revised, lines get moved around for smoother reading, and we craft the dialogue to make more sense and provide a more enjoyable experience to an English-speaking (and -reading) player.

Of course, then we'd hear no end of "Your English translations aren't excatly what they're saying, you guys suck" complaints. You can't please everybody.

You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but you cant please all of the people all of the time. I see your point but in all fairness, some companies put forth an effort while others dont even bother. Some people think translation means just waving a damn magic wand around and suddenly you have english. It's NOT that simple. Translating one language to another can often times lead to very ugly things that make absoluty no sense at all. I think you know all this better then I ever will though.

[Churchill]

It's not a key factor. It's a factor, but there are several larger factors in front of it.

Such as? I've asked this time and time again on the new release/news sections but can NEVER get any answer from this. Is it money? Is it space? Is it time? Licensing? I'd like to know as I could never get an answer from anyone.

I know that you already have the voices in japanese as it's local, and are working on the english dubbing, would it be that difficult to just add in the language?

These games are all about immersion for me. I don't speak japanese, I speak Spanish and English. The sounds, voices, inflections are what draws me into the game and the voice acting for english just leaves me feeling..empty. There is something about the reading what you are hearing in a different language that I get the feeling that something important, dangerous, critical is going on. I don't get that feeling with the english VOs. I've gotten so used to hearing them I can say "Oh it was that guy from Operation Darkness here" or "Oh that girl from Bladestorm" There's a pool of VO actors and once you pickup on one they all start to sound alike.

Thanks for posting, glad to see someone is reading.

[DamageCity]

It's not a key factor. It's a factor, but there are several larger factors in front of it.

Such as? I've asked this time and time again on the new release/news sections but can NEVER get any answer from this. Is it money? Is it space? Is it time? Licensing? I'd like to know as I could never get an answer from anyone.

Sorry dude, but they don't have to answer you and I doubt they ever will.

[dungeon_man]

voice acting speeds down my reading process. I get very impatient when text isn't skippable or the game lacks the option to set its display speed to fast.


I agree with this. I think it would be nice if the English translations were less verbose at times. This would help out with situations where Mitsuru, for example, is taking way too many words to describe something which is painfully obvious.


I know that you already have the voices in japanese as it's local, and are working on the english dubbing, would it be that difficult to just add in the language?

In the original game with one language, the game script looks in a specific spot for a specific audio file and plays it at a specified time. Adding a second language suddenly forces the script to check (english or japanese?) and play the correct audio file. Generally speaking, this is not difficult to do. However, if the game was not designed with this consideration from the beginning, it may require a fair bit of work that could potentially introduce new bugs.

Also, a new option must also be added to the "options" screen. A new option means one more thing the memory card must save, which means mucking about with the save format and input/output routines. Adding a language option probably introduces more changes than you or I realize and it's far easier to just leave everything as it is and swap in new data files.

Furthermore, licensing, space issues, and a bunch of things I've probably never though of can also hinder the process.

[iammako3]

Here's a question: do you dream in English or Japanese with English subtitles?
Everyone in my dreams speak a language that I actually understand. Speaking a language that I understand improves my sense of immersion into the game.



Believe it or not, I actually did this once (dream in Japanese with English subtitles). Granted it was after a day I had watched probably more anime then is healthy, but still. ^_^

I'm sure if someone wanted to root around they could find my argument for why I prefer Japanese dialogue to English (just my opinion, I know it's different strokes for different folks), but I'm too tired to type it all out again.

However, random fun point (this is not to be taken too seriously — I kid because I love), even with all the NISA bashing that goes on, they still manage to make their games dual audio. . . just saying if they can do it, than Atlus should totally be able to.^_~

[greg]

To me, it makes sense to just leave the Japanese voice talent in. Note I stressed the word "talent." A lot of games and anime's English voice acting seem to use local high school drama clubs for their voice acting. I'm not anti-dubbing, but I'm anti-BAD-dubbing. Namco's Tales of Symphonia for the Gamecube has excellent English voice acting.

Still, I prefer to have the J-voices left intact, and at least have a dual language option like we have in many fighting games and othes like Puyo Puyo/Puyo Pop. I can speak Japanese actually, and I can laugh at nuances that others won't get through a translation. However, I am not completely fluent, and reading the kanji is something I may never be able to do very well.

I am hoping that Atlus keeps the Japanese voices intact for the Super Robot Taisen Frontier game. Atlus left the Japanese voices in for the Izuna games. It would seem economical to just leave them alone instead of hiring English voice actors, even if some of them seem to be paid in chocolate bars and hairspray or something.

A real atrocity was with Sega's Shining Tears for the PS2. They didn't bother replacing the voice-overs, and instead just removed all voice overs. And the "Ha" and "Hya" voicing during the battles were dubbed, as if that really makes a difference. Seems to be more trouble than it's worth to dub sometimes.

[four_black_hearts]

This argument is a Recurring Nightmare.

[Vincent Alexander]

Even though this topic has been beaten to death, we can't really complain since many haven't been here for it yet.

I've never played a game in Japanese (I watch Anime in Japanese), but I understand those who want the Japanese track in. Japanese appeals to me BECAUSE I don't understand it, and a lot of people look at that as a bad thing. Because I don't understand the language, I don't recognize god awful #### voice acting. I don't recognize when a line is being read horribly, or when it is overly-cheesy. The only thing I have to worry about with Japanese language is if the voice is too high or too low for a character's appearance. My two cents. Buy what you will with it.

[Olethros]

Is there really a point to having the original japanese track when 99.999999~% of players don't know a lick of what they're saying? What's the point in having voice when you end up reading it to understand anyway.

Good VA > nonsensical jargon; however the option to turn that off beats the pants off of either options. :p

I agree with this 100%.

I have no opposition to dual audio. I have very STRONG opposition to the requests for leaving the foreign language with NO english language option, only text. If there's only text, fine, then remove the voices all together. In no way is it acceptable to MAKE me listen to a language I do not understand.

[System_Error]

The only time ONLY having Japanese Audio is ok is Yakuza because it's not a fantasy game in a fantasy world but a game BASED in modern day Japan. Makes it feel like a Foreign Film.

[Emilio Morales]

I agree with this and I also agree with something they say about many of the players (me included :P) not being able to understand what they're hearing and end up reading the text. But in my opinion it would be awesome to have an option to turn the audio in Japanese, because the Japanese voice acting is much more cooler and exciting to hear (even though you don't understand it :lol:) and because some characters sounds much better in Japanese than in English (with some exceptions, such as Baofu. I like it even more in English than Japanese).

A good example of a game that has this option (turning the audio to Japanese) and I thankfully appreciate it, is in DragonBall Z Budokai 3, since in my opinion ALL the voice acting in the English version sucks, I was glad I could turn it Japanese :D

[Hamel]

The only time ONLY having Japanese Audio is ok is Yakuza because it's not a fantasy game in a fantasy world but a game BASED in modern day Japan. Makes it feel like a Foreign Film.

A lot of games are based in modern day Japan
The Persona series is a good exemple

[poiuiu]

To me, it makes sense to just leave the Japanese voice talent in. Note I stressed the word "talent."

It's kinda hard to defend talent when it's hard determine what va is 'good' and 'bad' when you have no foundation of what they're saying. Jargon sounds like jargon sounds like jargon sounds like jargon.

I mean, listening to the french track of Blue Dragon, while most will say it's decent (or at least better than the english or japanese tracks) I still think it's pretty unbearable to listen to even if I have a bit of understanding to what's being said. While I realise it could just be my irrational apathy towards va, even if said french dub was done by a guy like say, Gérard Depardieu, I wouldn't know if it's good or not due to my limited knowledge of the language. Bear in mind, I'm speaking generally from a nonspeaker and/or nonunderstander's perspective.

[Flußkönig]

I don't really care if the Japanese voice track is included in a game as long as there is a competent English voice track as well.

[Sei]

I love Japanese audio and its inclusion in some games is a strong factor determining whether I purchase them or not. There is bad Japanese voice acting (Phantom Brave and Y's ark of naph come to mind) but on the whole I find Japanese voice actors transmit a lot more feeling to me when I am playing games.

And some games (don't get me wrong I'd day one it even if dubbed and no jp voice track) like SRT OG are hard to imagine with english voices due to the insane amount of awesome shouting and spirit which is a big component in their voice acting.

[Luca Blight]

I think the japanese VA has more spirit in it than most of the english VA, i can understand most of the word in japanese, but i cant read so when im listening japanese dialogues i feel like something is gonna happen or if a character is feeling bad or something.

i know that there are good english VA but i rather stick with japanese, most of the time is the original language of the game and feels cool

[Iris]

I've gotten so used to hearing them I can say "Oh it was that guy from Operation Darkness here" or "Oh that girl from Bladestorm" There's a pool of VO actors and once you pickup on one they all start to sound alike.

Please, like Koyasu Takehito doesn't sound the same in everything he's ever done either.

[greg]

In no way is it acceptable to MAKE me listen to a language I do not understand.
So I suppose you'd never play Street Figther II, King of Fighters, or anything like that? Would it be better for Ryu to shout "Hadouken!" or "Uh, like, fireball fist thingy"?

There are examples of bad Japanese voiceovers---the boy's voice in Plus Plum for the Dreamcast/Xbox was terrible. For the most part, though, the quality of voice acting from Japan exceeds that of typical English voice acting. Aside from examples like Metal Gear Solid, it tends to be sub par and I wonder why companies ever bother to dub.

But there are times when dubbing is pretty much mandatory. Probably the best example I can think of is Burning Rangers for the Saturn in which you have to listen to instructions to navigate your way around the inside of buildings. RPGs, on the other hand, really don't need to be dubbed in English. The upcoming SRT RPG just has characters shouting out attacks, just like in Street Fighter and whatnot. Unless it's necessary to dub, it's best to not bother, or at least offer dual language settings. Unfortunately though, my beloved DS usually won't have the capacity for dual language settings. Disgaea for the DS did not come with dual language settings due to rom size limitations.

For me, Japanese voiceovers are almost always welcome and preferable to English. An exception would be the Japanese voiceover in a game was not welcome for me was Yoda in Japanese in the new Soul Calibur game. Yoda needs to be Frank Oz. In my opinion, media should be enjoyed in the original language it was intended for.

[Flußkönig]

^Eh, I often find Jp VA in video games to be forced and melodramatic and I generally don't care for the pitch of many of the female VA's voices.

I am with Olethros on this one. If there is only going to be Jp VA then at least give me the option to turn the VA off.

[Vincent Alexander]

I argue that everyone here is wrong and I am right.

[SickleCellAnemia]

In no way is it acceptable to MAKE me listen to a language I do not understand.
So I suppose you'd never play Street Figther II, King of Fighters, or anything like that? Would it be better for Ryu to shout "Hadouken!" or "Uh, like, fireball fist thingy"?

That's a bad example to use. Fighting games and Role-playing games are two completely different things, in a good amount of voiced role-playing games you'll hear lines upon lines of dialogue, whereas in fighting games you'll usually just hear the character say their move name or a line of pre-fight or post fight dialogue.
EDIT: Although an exception I can think of is with Guilty Gear's voiced story mode, but you can just zip through the dialogue without really having to hear the voices.

[Hamel]

I've gotten so used to hearing them I can say "Oh it was that guy from Operation Darkness here" or "Oh that girl from Bladestorm" There's a pool of VO actors and once you pickup on one they all start to sound alike.

Please, like Koyasu Takehito doesn't sound the same in everything he's ever done either.

He doesn't sound exactly the same though you can identify it's him (and he is my favorite VA)

[slayn]

This thread is filled to the brim with fail.

[VMan]

In no way is it acceptable to MAKE me listen to a language I do not understand.
So I suppose you'd never play Street Figther II, King of Fighters, or anything like that? Would it be better for Ryu to shout "Hadouken!" or "Uh, like, fireball fist thingy"?

That's a bad example to use. Fighting games and Role-playing games are two completely different things, in a good amount of voiced role-playing games you'll hear lines upon lines of dialogue, whereas in fighting games you'll usually just hear the character say their move name or a line of pre-fight or post fight dialogue.
EDIT: Although an exception I can think of is with Guilty Gear's voiced story mode, but you can just zip through the dialogue without really having to hear the voices.

I was gonna point that out, too. Voice overs akin to one-liners and grunts really are a different context than fleshed out dialogue. There is fundamental difference in that you're referring to what are essentially short battle cries (or pre-fight comments/taunts in KoF's case) relative to voice acting that serves a purpose of really conveying character/personality/emotion as well as driving a storyline.

[Olethros]

One lined shouts, such as battle cries and shouting out the name of the move are irrelevant to me since they're typically nonsensical to begin with.

I'm more concerned with story important dialogue. That's when it would be completely unacceptable to only have the Japanese (or other foreign) voices only. If I wanted to play like that I could import games and print of a translated script to read along side it.

Also, I still cannot fathom for the life of me how most of you (key word most) cannot understand the language but still fully, unequivacally believe the Japanese voices are better. How the hell do you really know? Emoting? Pitch? All bull#### answers. If you don't know the meaning of the words being spoken, then you CANNOT judge if they've been inflected or phrased or used or pronounced correctly. Simple as that.

[Superkenon]

They sure can't... but if they don't recognize when the actors fail, there's nothing to be disappointed about, eh? Ignorance is bliss.

That said, there's a reason why everyone says Japanese voice actors are better, beyond just sounding "cooler" than english. The voice-acting industry there is just vastly more important and prominent than it is here... so more care is taken with casting and, of course, the acting itself. Heck, the seiyūs are often a selling point for anime or games... their national fame being akin to what movie stars enjoy here in the US. Since it can be such a good career move, they can take their jobs awfully seriously.

Meanwhile, most people can't even name our top voice actors over here. The companies in Japan will shell out much of their budget to hire talent, while our local companies' priority is saving money over finding proper voices.


It's starting to get a better these days, though, I'm happy to say. With more and more companies like our own Atlus putting more care into their casting, we might actually end up with a respectable voice-over industry yet. Make no mistake, we have a good voice actors here... I myself am a fan of many, but they're still just too few and far between, especially when you consider just how many jobs there are for it.

Yeah I was rambling there. Shut up.

[Olethros]

Since I don't know that much about it, I'll accept what you say about the Japanese voice industry as truth for the sake of argument. Maybe they are better, but the average non-Japanese speaking gamer still CANNOT tell the difference, so it's somewhat of a moot point. The actor could be the greatest in the world by reputation, but if the listener cannot understand it they still cannot accurately judge the merits of that performance. They're ultimately making their judgements based on reputation and second hand information ONLY. That's lame.

[Superkenon]

I know a fair deal of japanese myself, so I guess I can't respond personally to that argument. Armed with knowledge of the language as I am, I'm running on more than just second-hand information as far as my judgement of the audio goes.

All the same, you have a point. Those who don't know the language can't say for sure whether or not something officially classifies as "good acting". But, they can say whether or not it sounds good to them, which would be the more important point here, I think. Most people seem to simply be arguing that they just like the sound of japanese speech, not that it's necessarily better acting (though it usually is, tee hee!). And I think that's all the reason one needs.

When listening to music, you don't need to understand how an instrument is played, or if someone is playing in properly... all that matters for you, the listener, is whether or not it sounds good to your ears. I think that's their angle, and I don't see anything wrong with that, myself. If something sounds good to you, it sounds good to you.

[Vincent Alexander]

They sure can't... but if they don't recognize when the actors fail, there's nothing to be disappointed about, eh? Ignorance is bliss.
Damn skippy.

All the same, you have a point. Those who don't know the language can't say for sure whether or not something officially classifies as "good acting". But, they can say whether or not it sounds good to them, which would be the more important point here, I think. Most people seem to simply be arguing that they just like the sound of japanese speech, not that it's necessarily better acting (though it usually is, tee hee!). And I think that's all the reason one needs.

When listening to music, you don't need to understand how an instrument is played, or if someone is playing in properly... all that matters for you, the listener, is whether or not it sounds good to your ears. I think that's their angle, and I don't see anything wrong with that, myself. If something sounds good to you, it sounds good to you.
Very well said. Couldn't agree more.

[Olethros]

I know a fair deal of japanese myself, so I guess I can't respond personally to that argument. Armed with knowledge of the language as I am, I'm running on more than just second-hand information as far as my judgement of the audio goes.

All the same, you have a point. Those who don't know the language can't say for sure whether or not something officially classifies as "good acting". But, they can say whether or not it sounds good to them, which would be the more important point here, I think. Most people seem to simply be arguing that they just like the sound of japanese speech, not that it's necessarily better acting (though it usually is, tee hee!). And I think that's all the reason one needs.

When listening to music, you don't need to understand how an instrument is played, or if someone is playing in properly... all that matters for you, the listener, is whether or not it sounds good to your ears. I think that's their angle, and I don't see anything wrong with that, myself. If something sounds good to you, it sounds good to you.

Oh, please don't misunderstand me. I'm in no way attacking anyone's opinions or sensibilities (that would be stupid and an inherently flawed argument). If they like the sound of the speech, that's one thing. My problem occurs with the constant claims that it's inherently better by non-speakers. As long as the person can admit that without knowledge of the language itself they cannot judge based on merit alone, then I'm fine with whatever they prefer.

[PFV]

Also, I still cannot fathom for the life of me how most of you (key word most) cannot understand the language but still fully, unequivacally believe the Japanese voices are better. How the hell do you really know? Emoting? Pitch? All bull#### answers. If you don't know the meaning of the words being spoken, then you CANNOT judge if they've been inflected or phrased or used or pronounced correctly. Simple as that.

I'm reminded of an old episode of the Simpsons where Lisa ends up in the Russian district. And, there's a chess player and he sounds angry and violent, but he's saying #### like "Good game, would you like to play another?"

I think of that episode everytime this argument comes up.

PS - IAWO

[Decept]

I didn't know VA was such a hot topic. Guess I can be lumped into the group that missed the argument that keeps looping.

I think you two have fleshed out the two best points. People claim they like the Japanese VA better because the English VA is so terrible, therefore, all Japanese VA is amazing. It's the sound of the language that grabs our attention.

They like the sound because they can attach any meaning/emotion/feeling/etc. they want based on the subtitles, whereas when it is in english, they are the stuck with the actor's performance. You can't un-hear something, so now its stuck in your head, and that character is possibly forever taken away from your imagination in the creative way it was born in your mind.

Well I guess you could argue that if that is true, then why not take out voices all together and leave it up to your imagination. Well that is how its always been done in the past and of course that worked. However, like Superkenon pointed out, it's the sound that is adding to the experience and helping the gamer be immersed.

So I think most people are just claiming they like the Japanese VA for the wrong reasons using the wrong facts. I agree with both Olethros that it's lame that most people are blindly/deafly? following Japanese VA, and Superkenon because he pointed out that it is the sound, along with the acting (if well performed), that improves the experience.

[Superkenon]

Oh, please don't misunderstand me. I'm in no way attacking anyone's opinions or sensibilities (that would be stupid and an inherently flawed argument). If they like the sound of the speech, that's one thing. My problem occurs with the constant claims that it's inherently better by non-speakers. As long as the person can admit that without knowledge of the language itself they cannot judge based on merit alone, then I'm fine with whatever they prefer.

But I would think it's their opinion that causes them to say it's better. O ho.

I understand where you're coming from, though. So I think I'll shut my yapper now, since it's not like I can talk for the people you're referring to. But first, gimme a hug to celebrate our civil exchange of words...!

[Vincent Alexander]

So I think most people are just claiming they like the Japanese VA for the wrong reasons using the wrong facts because I agree with both Olethros that it's lame that most people are blindly/deafly? following Japanese VA, and Superkenon because he pointed out that it is the sound, along with the acting (if well performed), that improves the experience.
Wow...that is one sentence.

[Flußkönig]

^Punctuation is highly overrated.

[greg]

The actor could be the greatest in the world by reputation, but if the listener cannot understand it they still cannot accurately judge the merits of that performance. They're ultimately making their judgements based on reputation and second hand information ONLY. That's lame.

I'll go out on a limb and say that you most likely do not watch many foreign films. As I said before, I can understand quite a bit of Japanese, so I'll leave out those examples. I've been pretty near moved to tears by the acting in other languages, like the Korean romance movie The Classic. For voice acting, I've seen Disney movies in French that were very well done. As Superkenon pointed out, countries that import quite a bit of foreign media seem to have quite a talented pool of voice actors. Here, it seems to be an afterthought. However, I have mentioned some cases of bad J-voices, as have some others.

When listening to music, you don't need to understand how an instrument is played, or if someone is playing in properly...
Or to make a closer analogy, you can tell if somebody is a good singer even if you cannot understand the lyrics.

[Hitoshura]

People who complain about English dubs these days have hearing problems, and/or are delusional.

Usually the latter.

[Hamel]

People who complain about English dubs these days have hearing problems, and/or are delusional.

Usually the latter.

While it's true for most cases we still get stuff like this sometimes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAtC1SzWSXg

[Vincent Alexander]

^That clip will never stop being amazing.

[Luca Blight]

Im gonna tell how i think.

Im a latin guy, but i understand english and i understand a bit of japanese.
im a type of guy that likes to see something in their original language example i can watch american movies dubbed in spanish, i doesnt sound right hear will smith with spanish voice, all my life i have watched cartoons in spanish so i get used to watch american cartoons movies with spanish dubb
but when it come to games i still prefer their original VA, like superkenon said it sound perfect to me, i know that some english VA are superb and a lot are medicre, but even if i can get a game with superb VA i still feel weird.

PS: sorry for my bad writing

[TheMagicHat]

I'm all for dual audio. Not just so all audiophiles can be happy (because they won't, there will always be an arguement), but just because I'm greedy. I'll take all the dubs I can get: original or otherwise.

[BGFUSAB]

I think that it only makes good business sense to provide the English language dub for markets that primarily speak English. I know that the dubs rub some people the wrong way but I think the majority of customers want to hear a language they can understand, and so you give the majority what they want.

Personally, I'd love to have both. I prefer to watch most anime in Japanese even though I don't understand it, precisely because I don't understand it. Maybe the voice acting is really better than the English acting, maybe its just as bad, I can't really tell but I can feel the emotions and that's enough for me. In the dubs I CAN tell when its bad, or, even when its good but still annoys me. I actually have this issue with the PSP Yggdra Union. I think the English VA in the game is pretty good, I just don't like the way the voices match up with the Characters, particularly Yggdra. So I run the Japanese option and am blissfully ignorant. There are some occasions where I prefer the dub. The dub is SO good for Spirited Away I don't really see the need to listen to the Japanese track.

So while I think its nice to have both, I think you first have to make the game to sell towards the target market and that means English VA first, Japanese VA if its feasible. I understand that on some levels these guys are artists, but they're also a business and they have to attend to those needs first, or they won't be around to sell more art and we all know that we want more art.

Side note: Watching Spirited Away in English with the English subs on is kind of fun. The subs are translated very faithfully whereas the dub was cleaned up a little by Disney so you can see where Disney decided something needed to be changed for the American audience.

[dunno001]

It's not a key factor. It's a factor, but there are several larger factors in front of it.

Such as? I've asked this time and time again on the new release/news sections but can NEVER get any answer from this. Is it money? Is it space? Is it time? Licensing? I'd like to know as I could never get an answer from anyone.

Sorry dude, but they don't have to answer you and I doubt they ever will.
Well, admittingly, it's something even I can answer. The number 1 thing that will control everything is contracts. Atlus JP has contracts with every single one of the voice actors, describing what can or will be done with their work, how much, if any, of the proceeds they will get back, and, in many cases, foreign rights. It doesn't matter how much Atlus USA wants the Japanese language if one of the actors has the ability to say no; that star stays in right field, and isn't lining up for anything.

On a case-by-case level, there's any number of factors that could come up. Limited space (especially in Japan) could result in the destruction of the original voice files; a committee could insist on it being completely localized, including the voices; space and cost are obviously potential obstacles; the list goes on an on.

Personally, I would prefer dual language, but I'm not going to demand it. If it's only English, I'm fine; likewise, if it's only Japanese with subtitles, I'm fine. I'm happy that I'm getting the game. But to just flat out say that English VAs are bad is wrong. You may have gotten some traction on that argument about 15-20 years ago, but now it merely shows a lack of knowledge on the diversity of dubs availiable. Sure, the occasional bad dub still exists, but more knowledgable directors and actors have sharply reduced the atrocious ones.

[Hitoshura]

Oh man, it really makes me happy to see some intelligent anime viewers and gamers these days. Far too many nuts shun English dubs in nothing but childish ignorance and delusion.

Sure, a bad one crops up every once in awhile here. But for the most part, all dubs are really well done. And before anyone goes saying anything about them using the same voice actors repeatedly... I suggest you check your precious Seiyuu lists.

[Superkenon]

In the forum of a company who knows how to dub a game right, you won't hear many complaints about the quality of recent english voice-overs. Still, if I may, they're not all Atlus-caliber yet. Don't forget that the main topic here is video games, not anime, which are highly different stories I think... the improvement I've identified in the anime industry hasn't quite caught up to video games yet, except with a few exceptions (like the one I just mentioned).

I'm rather supportive of dubs, myself. Personally I will almost always switch the japanese audio on (though if I know some of my favorite voice actors are in the dub, sometimes I'll leave it be, heh), but I understand the importance of dubbing. It makes the product that much more accessible and appealing to a wider audience, aside from being easier to understand. By no means should they strain themselves just to please a niche market... though if a dual-audio option becomes easier to implement, they should go for it. Won't make everyone happy, but it will please more people.

Not really sure what my point is here. Just shooting my mouth off as usual.

[Churchill]

Oh man, it really makes me happy to see some intelligent anime viewers and gamers these days. Far too many nuts shun English dubs in nothing but childish ignorance and delusion.

Sure, a bad one crops up every once in awhile here. But for the most part, all dubs are really well done. And before anyone goes saying anything about them using the same voice actors repeatedly... I suggest you check your precious Seiyuu lists.


I don't care about Anime. I'm talking about video games.

I know they use the same VA over and over again, you can't miss their voices, heck I can even tell when one actor is doing different characters just due to the inflection in their voice. This is for the English not the japanese. It's much harder with the japanese version to tell if single actors do multiple Voice Overs. I know that there are the same VA who you can say "He's done this and that" and recognize. That's fine. Every roll that a certain actor is in you can say the Voice "fits" and therefore it's ok.


Are all the VA "bad"? No. Not all of them, there have been some good ones, I have a preference and I know games come with both Jap/French/English/German and you can switch them all around if you want.

Licensing contracts? That's a new one and that would make sense to me.

[Zacewing]

I hate people who hate english dubs for reasons like "They suit the characters better" and "So-and-so's voice bothers me".

If you could understand Japanese, you'd notice the odd hiccups and mistakes here and there with the voice acting.

I'm honestly sick of Japanophiles going on about how horrible English dubs are and how perfect Japanese voices are when they don't know how good they have it sometimes.

[Vincent Alexander]

If you could understand Japanese, you'd notice the odd hiccups and mistakes here and there with the voice acting.

I'm honestly sick of Japanophiles going on about how horrible English dubs are and how perfect Japanese voices are when they don't know how good they have it sometimes.
Why do people keep bringing up the fact that if only we knew the language, we'd know how bad it is. Who the #### cares...honestly. If someone thinks it is better, it is better, as simple as that.

[Olethros]

You know I luv ya Vince, but I have to agree with whatshisname's post above yours. Claims of preference is one thing, sure, but claims of inherently superior quality is quite another.

[Superkenon]

I'll never understand why people get so upset about this. This entire issue is 100% about personal preferences, yet some folk like to shoot their mouths off like there's some kind of definite truth over which is better here. There's not. Some people prefer english dubs, others prefer the original japanse sound... and naturally everyone just wants to listen to what they like more. That's all there is to it. There's no reason to belittle others and their views simply because they're not the same as yours... yeesh.

The "if only you knew the language, you'd know how bad it is" argument is a baffling one, though. Even the champion defenders of the english dubs won't deny our actors slip up now and then at least, but they'll insist that it still doesn't ruin the experience for them, which is understandable. If you like something, you obviously can be forgiving of a few errors. Yet some will turn around and say that the japanese audio is probably awful because they might not be saying everything perfectly. Heh, what?

I'll just say this: I know enough japanese to tell when an actor has emphasized something awkwardly, and yes, it happens on occasion, and... guess what, it doesn't ruin the whole thing for me. So even as I've become more proficient with the language, I seem to enjoy hearing it all the same (if not more). The whole "you only like it because you don't know better" idea is laughable from my perspective.

[Crabman]

Language tracks = alot of data space! Maybe on PS3 games, but not so much on PS2/360 games. I'm pretty convinced Lost Odyessy was only 4 disks so they could fit the billion or so voice tracks on there.

tip: Lost Odyessy in German is great. The language is so thick and full, it sounds gorgeous. I wish I understood it.

I don't have a preference for language, just as long as the performance is delivered well. That automatically gives Japanese an upper hand, since I don't understand any of it, but that just makes a good English dub that much better. Atlus has been great with localizations and dubs, though, so I can't complain.

[Vincent Alexander]

You know I luv ya Vince, but I have to agree with whatshisname's post above yours. Claims of preference is one thing, sure, but claims of inherently superior quality is quite another.
Very true, especially the part about you loving me.... -cough-. But remember, I didn't make that claim about the inherently better language. I'm just trying to point out that claims such as, "If you could understand Japanese, you'd notice the odd hiccups and mistakes here and there with the voice acting," are dumb as ####. It is trying to make a claim with a basis on the unknown.

I would also like to state that I have never played a game in Japanese.

[TheMagicHat]

Does anyone rallying for japanese VO with english subs really care what the characters are saying? Or are they just content with reading anything as long as they can revel in foreign dialogue and pretend they're having a good time? Because quite frankly, anyone can write whatever they want for a translation and I'm betting the majority of the audience would just eat it up.

I've seen it happen way too many times already.

[jeffx]

BTW Atlus USA included Japanese VA in Hammerin' Hero, so those of you who complain that they should do it more often... you better put your money where your mouth is.

That's including myself.

[Vincent Alexander]

Does anyone rallying for japanese VO with english subs really care what the characters are saying? Or are they just content with reading anything as long as they can revel in foreign dialogue and pretend they're having a good time?
Congratulations on the Dumbest Comment of the Week Award. Await your sticker in the mail.

[SickleCellAnemia]

^I already have 10 of those stickers, they're scratch and sniff!

[TheMagicHat]

I get a sticker? Yay! I can start a collection!

Okay, I'll admit that my comment was indignant and emotional. If that qualifies as stupidity to you, I'll accept that. I'm not in a really good mood today, anyways.

I still think that some people complain far too much about something so trivial. Of course, look who's talking, right?

[Vincent Alexander]

I'll agree that people do complain way too much. I wouldn't call it trivial, but I'd definitely say it is pretty low on the list of things to worry about with a video game. I'd complain first about things like story and character, but hey, whatever floats people's boats.

[DamageCity]

I wouldn't call it trivial,


Then I will.



It's trivial.

[Vincent Alexander]

Well said

[reason1313]

It's amazing how many people don't understand the definition of the word localization. After reading the TC's comments, i'm guessing he/she falls under the "disrespect the group of gamers the game is getting localized for" crowd.

Personally, i'm grateful Atlus shows respect to it's non-japanese fans by giving them games in languages they can actually understand. Even better, they give us the full voice/text treatment which few if any other localizers do.

Don't get me wrong, i don't personally have any issues with the Japanese language. It's the folks that seem to think that Jp voice/text is the only "worthy" gaming language. It's not. I can pick one game out of all the games (500+) i own that has a meh voice track(Chaos Wars), and since the game was basically kept under wraps until it's release as well as often delayed, the game itself was under scrutiny from the beginning anyways.

A polite suggestion for the TC and any others who feel this way......try putting yourself in someone else's shoes before asking for anything period. We have just as much right to play games that we purchase as you do, and we deserve the same treatment you get. That includes gameplay, character development, and voice/text.

BTW, if it really was trivial, this topic wouldn't have even been started..................

[Zacewing]

Well, considering how the OP worded his original post, I thought he was one of those people that hates English dubs for no good reason.

I wasn't saying Japanese dubs are bad, I'm just saying they're not perfect like some people make them out to be.

English dubs in video games have improved a long way from back in the 90's (Well, there are a few exceptions). The only game I've played that has dual audio where I changed the voices to Japanese was Atelier Iris 3.

For you English dub haters, you guys should be thankful that Atlus isn't giving us dubs like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAtC1SzWSXg)

[poiuiu]

For you English dub haters, you guys should be thankful that Atlus isn't giving us dubs like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAtC1SzWSXg)
Naw. If anything, voice acting like that is a blessing in disguise; that provides more hours of entertainment than that actual game itself! It's like watching a movie that's so bad, it's awesome!

[Superkenon]

A polite suggestion for the TC and any others who feel this way......try putting yourself in someone else's shoes before asking for anything period. We have just as much right to play games that we purchase as you do, and we deserve the same treatment you get. That includes gameplay, character development, and voice/text.

You do realize that all they're asking for is a japanese audio option, right? They're not trying to squash games of all signs of english dubs and text, so it seems a little melodramatic that you're acting like you need to fight for your rights here. ;)


It's amazing how many people don't understand the definition of the word localization. After reading the TC's comments, i'm guessing he/she falls under the "disrespect the group of gamers the game is getting localized for" crowd.

As long as you're bringing up who the games are being localized for... might I point out that fans of Atlus games include the same people you're attempting to belittle for requesting a japanese option? They are also part of the fan base, even if you don't agree with them. Just saying.


Personally, i'm grateful Atlus shows respect to it's non-japanese fans by giving them games in languages they can actually understand. Even better, they give us the full voice/text treatment which few if any other localizers do.

If I may... uhm, all localizers translate voice and text (except in the case of some fighting games, really). Unless you're just talking about the quality of Atlus translations. In that case, I'll agree with you. Atlus' efforts are indeed top-notch.

The funny thing about this thread though, is that it doesn't actually have much to do with Atlus at all. I think everyone agrees that Atlus is doing a great job... and most if not all of the complaints about english audio has to do with non-Atlus games. So it's a little odd that this discussion is taking place here... though despite Atlus' outstanding work, I don't think it's unreasonable for anyone to ask for a japanese option if that's what they fancy. Once again, you like what you like.

[Rednusander]

This forum is no stranger to heated discussions on this topic. However, I'm seeing a lot of personal attacks starting to get thrown out.

If you can't respond without insulting someone else or their opinion, then have the self restraint not to respond.

If it continues, the thread will be locked, and I'll get to see what this big red "infraction" button does to any offenders.

Thank you, and please carry on with your civil discourse.

[Zacewing]

For you English dub haters, you guys should be thankful that Atlus isn't giving us dubs like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAtC1SzWSXg)
Naw. If anything, voice acting like that is a blessing in disguise; that provides more hours of entertainment than that actual game itself! It's like watching a movie that's so bad, it's awesome!

No, that's earbleed inducing.

THIS is hilariously bad dubbing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRkZ6AqghIs)

[Vincent Alexander]

This forum is no stranger to heated discussions on this topic. However, I'm seeing a lot of personal attacks starting to get thrown out.
We can still personally attack user's comments, right? Because I see a big difference there.

[poiuiu]

No, that's earbleed inducing.

THIS is hilariously bad dubbing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRkZ6AqghIs)

I disagree there. With Star Ocean 2, it's like the people Sony (I think Sony localised the game) hired didn't bother to make it sound like anything at all; there's absolute no effort put into it, they were merely reading off a script one after another. There's no fun to be had there.

The Chaos Wars cutscene tho, which gets whore around, it sounds like they actually put EFFORT into trying to shoehorn some sort of audio stereotype into their character but end up with something that sounds entertainingly horrible, if not just horribly 'entertaining'. :p

[Demonis]

What's kinda funny, is a lot of japanese dialogue is left on the disc of P3 anyway.

[Zacewing]

No, that's earbleed inducing.

THIS is hilariously bad dubbing. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRkZ6AqghIs)

I disagree there. With Star Ocean 2, it's like the people Sony (I think Sony localised the game) hired didn't bother to make it sound like anything at all; there's absolute no effort put into it, they were merely reading off a script one after another. There's no fun to be had there.

The Chaos Wars cutscene tho, which gets whore around, it sounds like they actually put EFFORT into trying to shoehorn some sort of audio stereotype into their character but end up with something that sounds entertainingly horrible, if not just horribly 'entertaining'. :p

The game was localized by Enix.

But anyway, people should be glad we're getting dubs like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9OMMT1lYrw) and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0jFQRFYyKc&feature=PlayList&p=263FB53091BDBDCA&index=54) instead of the previously posted ones. >_>

[Vincent Alexander]

Definitely better than: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHn5q_6Oz7Y

[The God of Summons]

I'm a Spanish speaker and I like watching Family Guy in English, when I watch Predator, I like it in English, when I watch Dr. House, I watch it in English, wether I need the subtitles or not is not the problem, the thing is that when someone CREATES a character, they add the voice that's best suitable for what they want to create, the regional accents the jokes the sounds, they were originally verified by the directors. It happens in movies in cartoons anime, and it happens in videogames. Gimme the product in the ORIGINAL language, if it was made in the USA, well gimme the English, if it was made in France French or whatever, you can't possibly compare the original voices with some random guy who was never chosen by the producers at all. That's my humble opinion.

[Jinkies]

Not really true, as there have been producers/creators who have chosen for dub voices.

I'm in the boat for English as well, as even if things are left in the original langauges, things are still lost. Things are recognized by Japanese audience, I wouldn't be able to identify with at all, like the accents. It'll all sound the same with me. I don't care if its live-action or animated, I'm all for having a dub for that country. But a choice for all is good when its possible.

Thing is, if its in English only, people have the option to import. If its Japanese only, I won't really have a choice there. I find it a bit unfair.

[narutolost]

I like watching Kungfu movies in Chinese, and Japanese anime in Japanese subs. Dubs almost always sound cheap.

[Rurik]

Just something I need to point out for the people always whining about Japanese names and words being mispronounced by the English actors. Two things actually, the English dubs are for people who speak English, not Japanese, most of them aren't going to notice a name being mispronounced, if you speak Japanese, and hate the dubs so much, then there's a simple solution, play the Japanese versions of games, watch the Japanese versions of anime and movies, and leave the dubs for the people who want them, quit trying to shove Japanese down the throats of people who neither understand, nor CARE about the Japanese language. Secondly, not all characters are Japanese in anime and games. Why would a Jamaican character like Giado from SRW be able to flawlessly pronounce a Japanese name? In real life, he'd probably butcher the crap out of the Japanese language, and he'd only make it worse if he tried to immitate the Japanese language instead of just pronouncing it like he normally would.

[Manly Biceps]

Just something I need to point out for the people always whining about Japanese names and words being mispronounced by the English actors. Two things actually, the English dubs are for people who speak English, not Japanese, most of them aren't going to notice a name being mispronounced, if you speak Japanese, and hate the dubs so much, then there's a simple solution, play the Japanese versions of games, watch the Japanese versions of anime and movies, and leave the dubs for the people who want them, quit trying to shove Japanese down the throats of people who neither understand, nor CARE about the Japanese language. Secondly, not all characters are Japanese in anime and games. Why would a Jamaican character like Giado from SRW be able to flawlessly pronounce a Japanese name? In real life, he'd probably butcher the crap out of the Japanese language, and he'd only make it worse if he tried to immitate the Japanese language instead of just pronouncing it like he normally would.

Depends. Giado's kinda whipped, remember? I'm pretty sure he'd learn how to pronounce the name of his woman, and have some rudimentary grasp of her language by the time we're introduced to him in SRW.

[Clephas]

Though I'm generally a supporter of keeping the Japanese voices, I can live without them... as long as the option to turn off the english ones is there. If you are going to stuff English dubs down my throat, please have the courtesy to give me the capability to mute the voices separately from everything else. That is really my only complaint for english dubs...

Incidentally, I am one of those one in a hundred people who understand spoken Japanese well enough to understand the voices, and I also understand the nuances and various sayings well enough to whole-heartedly support Onion's words early in the thread noting the inevitability of avoiding direct translation. A good portion of the Japanese proverbs and sayings - and the Japanese love their proverbs and sayings - don't entirely make sense when translated, but a good number of them have counterparts in our language. Those same people that scream about the translation not being literally precise should be thinking more about whether the essential meaning of the statement is warped rather than whether the translation is perfectly accurate down to the last word.

Oh and for my reason as to why I enjoy the Japanese VA... I happen to love the language, purely for itself. The argument that jp voice actors are always superior to English ones is a bit out of date, though there is usually at least one English voice in any given game that is so absolutely horrible it makes me want to jam a screwdriver through my ear-drums. (ie. Welch from Star Ocean 4) Really, saying that jp VA is better is something you can only legitimately say when you know the language... though I will admit that generally speaking their quality is more consistent.

[jeffx]

Clephas: not sure I could put it any better. It's true that the same Japanese idioms come back over and over again -- to the point of being nauseating. But I will never grow tired of hot-blooded ORA-ORA screams*. I don't think anything can compare in English.

* Those actually spawned a new fashion (http://mekas.jp/blog/mens-fashion/2009/01/ora-ora-kei/).

[Rurik]

Depends. Giado's kinda whipped, remember? I'm pretty sure he'd learn how to pronounce the name of his woman, and have some rudimentary grasp of her language by the time we're introduced to him in SRW.

Care to explain to me exactly which part of Garnet Sunday requires being able to speak Japanese? Garnet and Sunday are both English words.

Or where the idea she's Japanese comes from? If anything judging from the choice of last names they gave Latooni, Subota, she's European, since Subota is either Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian, or Slovakian in origin, and I'm fairly certain it wouldn't have been suggested by the Jamaican.

[Manly Biceps]

Depends. Giado's kinda whipped, remember? I'm pretty sure he'd learn how to pronounce the name of his woman, and have some rudimentary grasp of her language by the time we're introduced to him in SRW.

Care to explain to me exactly which part of Garnet Sunday requires being able to speak Japanese? Garnet and Sunday are both English words.

This is what I get for referencing a game I didn't work on.

She's got Japanese friends, and they're constantly onboard Spacecraft carriers with Japanese names. THERE.

[Rurik]

He might learn in time, but it's highly unlikely he'd be able to pronounce Ryusei properly from the moment he met him. That's my point, of course, the characters who haven't spent much time around the Japanese language, wouldn't just automatically be able to pronounce Ryusei, just like Kyosuke, and for that matter most of the crew, would have a hard time pronouncing Rai's name properly, because Rai isn't Japanese, his name would NOT be pronounced using the Japanese type of R, rather it would be pronounced with a German consonantal R, which is completely different, rather than being like a mix of R and L, it's closer to a mixture of R and H, and very difficult to pronounce properly.

That makes it unrealistic, and unreasonable to say that a dub is terrible because some characters mispronounce certain names. It's one thing to expect the Japanese characters to be able to pronounce Ryusei's name from the moment they meet him, and especially for Ryusei to be able to pronounce his own name, but to expect non-Japanese characters who just met Ryusei for the first time to be able to pronounce it properly is an entirely different thing. If most real people can't pronounce foreign names, why should fictional characters be able to?

[Olethros]

^ You're awesome. Favorite new poster confirmed! :D

[Onion of Mystery]

That would make for great dialogue.

Giado: Hey, Lucy, I--
Ryusei: What'd you call me?
Giado: Lee-oose-ee?
Ryusei: It's Ryusei.
Giado: Roo--
Ryusei: Ryu.
Giado: Lou--
Ryusei: Ryu!
...and so on for the next ten minutes.

[Hitoshura]

Though I'm generally a supporter of keeping the Japanese voices, I can live without them... as long as the option to turn off the english ones is there. If you are going to stuff English dubs down my throat, please have the courtesy to give me the capability to mute the voices separately from everything else. That is really my only complaint for english dubs...

No, because then silly dub haters won't even give the dub a chance. OH WAIT ONLY ENGLISH VOICES? THAT IS NEVER GOOD, MUTED LIKE THE FIST OF THE NORTH STAR!!!!!!! etc.

[Clephas]

What sounds good to one person might be ear cancer to another. I have given dubs a chance numerous times, but there are inevitably times when I want desperately to turn them off so I can simply picture what they are saying inside my head... in more appropriate voices. There have even been times when I've turned off the jp VA so that I can simply enjoy how the script is written without the interference of voices. Though, I will admit I don't do that often.

The fact is, this is about a person's personal aesthetic values more than anything else. Allowing the ability to mute the English VA's will kill some of the complaints from the jp fanatics.

[Rurik]

That would make for great dialogue.

Giado: Hey, Lucy, I--
Ryusei: What'd you call me?
Giado: Lee-oose-ee?
Ryusei: It's Ryusei.
Giado: Roo--
Ryusei: Ryu.
Giado: Lou--
Ryusei: Ryu!
...and so on for the next ten minutes.

Haha, I remember the first time I ever saw the name Kyosuke, I didn't know anything about pronouncing Japanese names at the time, so the entire time I played the game I was pronouncing the name in my head Kee-oh-soo-kee. XD

[Hitoshura]

What sounds good to one person might be ear cancer to another. I have given dubs a chance numerous times, but there are inevitably times when I want desperately to turn them off so I can simply picture what they are saying inside my head... in more appropriate voices. There have even been times when I've turned off the jp VA so that I can simply enjoy how the script is written without the interference of voices. Though, I will admit I don't do that often.

The fact is, this is about a person's personal aesthetic values more than anything else. Allowing the ability to mute the English VA's will kill some of the complaints from the jp fanatics.

Well, I am glad you give dubs a chance at the least, but I know way too many silly "jp fanatics" who are so nuts they deny any and all dubs with no rational line of thought. This isn't 1990 anymore, dubs are generally good. It's actually a tad difficult to find bad dubs. JP fanatics SHOULD have English dubs forced down their throats IMO, because as evidenced in quite a few of my silly friends, it makes them start to realize that dubs really aren't anywhere near as bad as they've been making them out to be.

[Clephas]

Well, I am glad you give dubs a chance at the least, but I know way too many silly "jp fanatics" who are so nuts they deny any and all dubs with no rational line of thought. This isn't 1990 anymore, dubs are generally good. It's actually a tad difficult to find bad dubs. JP fanatics SHOULD have English dubs forced down their throats IMO, because as evidenced in quite a few of my silly friends, it makes them start to realize that dubs really aren't anywhere near as bad as they've been making them out to be.

lol... if it were anime, I'd protest violently against dubs, but for games, it makes less of a difference, since voices are only icing on the cake. If you don't happen to like icing, it makes perfectly good sense to be able to wipe it off so you don't have to have it getting in the way of the perfectly good taste of the cake within.

[Rurik]

Again I point out, since you can understand the Japanese language, and this applies even more to anime than video games, then go watch the Japanese version. The dubs aren't meant for people who can understand Japanese, they're meant for those of us who aren't lucky enough to understand it. As it is the people who CAN understand Japanese get all sorts of anime and video games that never get dubbed, or even subtitled, so why do they feel the need to ruin it for everyone else? Going on and on and on about how "terrible" the English dubs are, and how nothing should ever be dubbed. Is it about being elitist? Being able to say "Ha! Loser! The best you get is Trigun and Cowboy Bebop! WE get to keep all the REALLY good stuff to ourselves though!" Is that what it's about? Well good for you all, really, I'm very happy for you that you're privileged enough to speak Japanese. I'm not that lucky, the only language MY high school offered was Spanish, so unless I can find a Spanish dub, I'm pretty much out of luck. I don't much care for you all trying to rub it in my face even more by saying that nothing should ever be dubbed in English so I can understand it.

[Vincent Alexander]

"Ha! Loser! The best you get is Trigun and Cowboy Bebop! WE get to keep all the REALLY good stuff to ourselves though!"

If the Japanese are holding out on something better than Cowboy Bebop, I'd give both my left nuts to see it.

[Rurik]

...Okay, so maybe I can't think of anything better than Bebop, but then that's due in part to my lack of ability to understand Japanese, so if I can't find a fansub I can't watch it.

[Fuyukaze]

I'm not sure if this thread hit a train wreck or was already one from the start but somehow I doubt many can or will see the point.

Some people want japanese voices, some people want english voices, some want both, and some want neither. This argument is so damned old. It existed years before voice work in games was a big thing and sadly looks to continue. I think someone was right. If you cant have both, have neither. I'm at the point I'd rather just do away with any voice acting at all.

[Rurik]

The thing is, it's ridiculous to demand any language other than English in the ENGLISH version of the game. It's like going into a Chinese restaurant, and demanding tacos, or going into an Italian restaurant and demanding sushi! If you want tacos, you go to a Mexican restaurant, if you want sushi, go to a Japanese restaurant. It's the same exact thing, if you want Japanese voices, go play the JAPANESE games and watch the JAPANESE anime, not the ENGLISH versions. And the companies shouldn't have to cater to these people who can't understand such a basic concept. If you want to play games and watch anime with the Japanese voices, then go learn to read, write, and speak Japanese. Instead of buying an English version of the game, then whining that the English version of the game is (GASP!) in English and not Japanese, go invest in some lessons, then once you've mastered the Japanese language you can have all the Japanese voices you want. And if you already DO know Japanese, then you've got no reason NOT to just get the Japanese versions, and leave those "awful dubs" for those of us who WANT them.

[VMan]

The thing is, it's ridiculous to demand any language other than English in the ENGLISH version of the game. It's like going into a Chinese restaurant, and demanding tacos, or going into an Italian restaurant and demanding sushi! If you want tacos, you go to a Mexican restaurant, if you want sushi, go to a Japanese restaurant. It's the same exact thing, if you want Japanese voices, go play the JAPANESE games and watch the JAPANESE anime, not the ENGLISH versions. And the companies shouldn't have to cater to these people who can't understand such a basic concept. If you want to play games and watch anime with the Japanese voices, then go learn to read, write, and speak Japanese. Instead of buying an English version of the game, then whining that the English version of the game is (GASP!) in English and not Japanese, go invest in some lessons, then once you've mastered the Japanese language you can have all the Japanese voices you want. And if you already DO know Japanese, then you've got no reason NOT to just get the Japanese versions, and leave those "awful dubs" for those of us who WANT them.

I have to say, you make a very good point. I do understand one's desire for Japanese dubs in games. I also understand one's desire for subtitles for the sake of authenticity (considering a character's background). But I do agree that one shouldn't feel entitled to, and thus, upset when a game lacks a dub in a language that is not suitable for the majority of the audience it is meant for (regardless if it is understood).

Atlus has said they try to do dual audio when its possible, but sometimes its out of their hands. Keeping in mind this is Atlus USA we're discussing, I don't think people have a moral right to get upset about that.

[Rurik]

And people don't seem to understand exactly how much more complicated multiple language support is for games. It's one thing for a fighting game, like Dragonball Z Budokai, they don't really have to do much other than add a code to check if it's set for English or Japanese, and include two sets of audio files, but if it's a game like Final Fantasy XII or something, that's a lot more complicated. Thanks to games like Final Fantasy, gamers have come to expect a high level of quality in RPG's. If they included multiple language support for a game like that, not only would the game have to contain multiple audio tracks and check to see which one it needs to play, but during scenes that show the character's faces, they'd also have to provide two separate sets of cutscenes, ones that have the lips synced for the Japanese audio, and one synced for the English audio, because if they just use one set of video, either the Japanese dub players, or the English dub players, are going to be ticked off because the lip syncing is off. The extra video would increase the amount of data that would have to be included in the game.

[kelvinc]

The lip syncing is already off on plenty of dubbed JRPGs with cutscenes, because they've been using the Japanese cutscenes for single-track English audio. It's perhaps because I grew up on anime dubbed with badly synced Cantonese that I find this to be acceptable, if not perferable, which goes to show how idiosyncratic the preferences for dubbing can be and why this whole debate is ridiculous.

[VMan]

And people don't seem to understand exactly how much more complicated multiple language support is for games. It's one thing for a fighting game, like Dragonball Z Budokai, they don't really have to do much other than add a code to check if it's set for English or Japanese, and include two sets of audio files, but if it's a game like Final Fantasy XII or something, that's a lot more complicated. Thanks to games like Final Fantasy, gamers have come to expect a high level of quality in RPG's. If they included multiple language support for a game like that, not only would the game have to contain multiple audio tracks and check to see which one it needs to play, but during scenes that show the character's faces, they'd also have to provide two separate sets of cutscenes, ones that have the lips synced for the Japanese audio, and one synced for the English audio, because if they just use one set of video, either the Japanese dub players, or the English dub players, are going to be ticked off because the lip syncing is off. The extra video would increase the amount of data that would have to be included in the game.

That reminds me of the DVD version of Advent Children. You can tell the lip flaps weren't adjusted for the localization, lol. That is a lot of CG to tweak, though.

Another issue which I believe I previously brought up with dual audio was space concerns. I'm all for dual audio as long as noticeable lossy compression can be avoided. I value audio too much sacrifice quality for quantity (of available dubs).

[Rurik]

Personally, I'll take what I can get, dubbed, subtitled, official or fan, I don't care. My main concern is simply to have an English translation. My next concern is to remain as uncut as possible, what I mean by that of course is that they don't change character's personalities drastically, key plot points, or cut out scenes because they're too bloody or violent or sexual or whatever. Of course some things have to be changed when translated into English, humour is one glaring example, humour doesn't translate well. My adopted (not in any legal sense, we've just known each other for years and treat each other as siblings) little sister from Sweden doesn't understand a lot of my jokes because they're based on American material that Swedes don't get. One of my favorite examples is from Samurai Pizza cats, in one scene, a character was behaving lecherously towards a girl and was crushed by a giant falling H, which in Japanese is pronounced ecchi, a word meaning "shameless" or "lewd." Most Americans wouldn't get this. Heck, I know I certainly wouldn't have gotten it if I hadn't read the Wikipedia article. They left the scene in the English dub though, but added the line; "You'd better mind your P's and Q's, or an H might fall on your head!" From a business stand point, you have to work towards the MAJORITY, not the minority. The majority of Americans do not speak Japanese, and want English dubs, they're the ones you want to target, not the minority who DO speak Japanese, or who don't speak Japanese, but still demand that nothing be translated into English because they think it sounds better, even though since they can't understand what's being said, for all they know the Japanese voice acting could be absolutely, ear bleeding, grade Z- terrible.

[Hitoshura]

lol... if it were anime, I'd protest violently against dubs, but for games, it makes less of a difference, since voices are only icing on the cake. If you don't happen to like icing, it makes perfectly good sense to be able to wipe it off so you don't have to have it getting in the way of the perfectly good taste of the cake within.

No. Most animes these days have excellent dubs. Fullmetal Alchemist and Ghost in the Shell come to mind.

As I say time and time again, it isn't 1990 anymore. Get with the times.

The only bad dubs I've heard recently are Ah My Goddess and Higurashi.

[Rurik]

Anything with 4Kids attached to the name also comes immediately to mind. Like the 4Kids dub of One Piece. Luckily Funimation bought the rights and redubbed it.

[Hitoshura]

^Ah, yeah. Although honestly, I thought Pokemon's original dub was allright, now it's just gone to #### though.

[Rurik]

Well even in the original Japanese, it's kind of hard to take a show seriously when Ash has been traveling around for how many years now, and he STILL hasn't hit puberty?

[greg]

The thing is, it's ridiculous to demand any language other than English in the ENGLISH version of the game.

Rurik, please stop playing the Endless Fronteir game before you have a brain stroke. The Atlus admin Rednusander already gave the business reason why Atlus did not overdub the voices in the game. Carrying on like this is like a slap in the face.

When it comes to anime, I am pretty abrupt with dub-only people, and I typically call them uncultured buffoons. I hate dubbed anime just for the same reason why I hate seeing American movies like Star Wars and such dubbed in Japanese. They screw with the voices. Ben Kenobi's Japanese voice in the preuquels is so wrong. My friend got Soul Calibur 4 for the 360. Of course we switched it to the Japanese voices, but that also meant that we had to listen to Yoda speaking Japanese, which is awful. Media should always be viewed in the language it was created for and intended for. I am sure I miss out on a lot of language nuances watching Chinese movies subbed since I do not understand more than a few words of Chinese, but I don't gripe. Nor do I gripe about a literal translation when I see something Japanese subbed in English that is different than what was just said. I know I get the reference, but I don't care if it isn't literal because I sympathize for most everyone else who does not understand the language.

That being said, I do make an exception for video games, since it would require a bit of rework to subtitle stuff like FMV cutscenes and such. Dual audio of course is best, but when working with limited storage space like with a DS cart, that isn't always plausible. The ability to mute is a great second option. But if there is no problem with just leaving the Japanese voices in if there is a text subtile to it all, then by all means just leave it in.

Typical Super Robot Taisen games do not really pose a big deal in leaving the audio in, assuming that you have played the OG PS2 games. (Anything but the OG games would be a licensing nightmare and basically impossible to release.) Cutscenes are minimal, and spoken dialogue is accompanied with text, so everyone can both understand and love Excellen. The Endless Frontier game seems to be different (it should be waiting for me by the time I get home in 2 days), but if you really are beating your head against the wall in frustration in not knowing what is being said, then please stop playing the game before you paint your house with your brains.

Atlus themselves already directly gave you the reason why they didn't dub the game. I'm glad, you aren't. Just be glad you got the game at all in the first place. If you can't enjoy it, then get rid of it.

EDIT: And another thing, plenty of Japanese games have a lot of English in it, and Japanese gamers don't seem to complain about it. For a long time, a lot of games have text in English, especially 2D shooters. A lot of the Western games that make it to Japan are not given any voiceovers. Interestingly enough, Japanese games that are directly given an English voiceover, such as Silent Hill, sometimes are a much better quality than the voice acting that American companies can come up with. Even the ones with decent dubs have at least one character or two that are completely annoying. I wish that all game dubbing efforts can be as exceptional as Metal Gear Solid, Grandia II, Skies of Arcadia, and Tales of Symphonia. But alas, it doesn't always work out that way.

[Rurik]

Japanese gamers aren't bothered by English, because the majority of them learn English. MOST countries teach English in addition to their own language. How do you think I'm able to speak with my Swedish sister? I don't understand a lick of Swedish. How many Americans do you know who speak Japanese however? As I stated, you want Japanese so badly, play the Japanese versions of the games. They're meant for people who want and understand Japanese. But don't come crying to me, or demanding that companies NOT dub anything just because you have some idiotic idea in your head that nothing should ever be dubbed, the dubs are for people who WANT them, not people who DON'T. You want the English Star Wars, buy the ENGLISH DVD, you want the Japanese voices for Final Fantasy XII, buy the JAPANESE version, the Japanese dub of Star Wars, and English dub of Final Fantasy XII clearly aren't meant for YOU. So instead of going into the American restaurant demanding they only serve sushi, go to the Japanese restaurant where sushi is on the menu already.

Tell me, look at the top of the screen. What do you see? Do you see Atlus Japan Forums? Do you see the titles of threads spelled out in kanji? Hiragana perhaps? Maybe katakana? No, it says Atlus USA, and the majority of Americans do NOT understand Japanese. This is the American restaurant, not the Japanese restaurant. That means you have NO right to come here, demanding that they NEVER dub any of their games in English. Do you see me going to the Atlus Japan forums demanding that all their Japanese releases be in English because I think they'd sound better in a language I understand, instead of one that just sounds like gibberish to me? No, because the Japanese versions of the games are not MEANT for me. The Atlus USA versions ARE however meant for me, and all the other average Americans who can not understand Japanese.

[peasantman]

God, If there is one thing I hate it's people bitching about how poor a dub is simply because it's in English, the worst are with anime people. It's like, do you REALLY expect it to be EXACTLY the same? A lot of people dismiss dubs as "poor" when a transition between languages makes it impossible to ever have exactly the same quality. And finally, the experience is SO MUCH MORE CASUAL in a language one understands.

[Hitoshura]

Media should always be viewed in the language it was created for and intended for.

No, it should be viewed in the language that gets the point across best. In other words, if the acting in an English dub is superb, it (most likely) will convey everything the original does, as well as being pleasant to the ears. If the acting is subpar, then even if it does manage to convey everything in the original, the acting may be too distracting to the viewer.

LET'S START LOOKING AT THINGS OBJECTIVELY. IT'S THE COOL WAY TO DO THINGS.

[kelvinc]

When it comes to anime, I am pretty abrupt with dub-only people, and I typically call them uncultured buffoons.
Then I suggest you never go to Asia outside of Japan (whose entertainment industry is big enough to avoid much importing): everyone else in East and Southeast Asia dubs liberally over imported anime, TV series, etc. Take Hong Kong: the only reason people watch Japanese or Korean drama series in the original languages is to be ahead of the curve, and inevitably the local station will import the popular shows and dub them for the mass audience. Meanwhile, you have Vietnamese dubs of HK shows. Everyone does it to everyone else.

What you consider uncultured buffoonery is, for many, a way of life. The irony is that because Asian pop cultures are not in the North American mainstream, there isn't enough demand to pay for dubbing, and the small market that demands them takes subtitles as the norm. Which then creates this feedback loop where because people think they're sophisticated enough to enjoy this stuff that they appreciate the original voices, and appreciating the original voices makes them sophisticated.

I'm certain that there are Japanese VO lovers who don't carry this condescension toward dub users, just as I'm not suggesting that there's no market for subtitled material in Asia (quite the opposite). But it's a personal preference, nothing more. Whatever increased appreciation of the work you're getting just by hearing the original style of the voices pales in comparison to actually getting all the idioms, slang, and cultural references that get lost in the subtitles and only a local fluent speaker would enjoy.

[Hitoshura]

^ You're my new favorite poster.

[Rurik]

I'd beg to differ. The Japanese anime pop culture has become very much mainstream in the US. So much so that even our own animators are jumping on the band wagon. Take the Cartoon Network Teen Titans show, using anime style art and even hiring Puffy to do the theme. Or the (short lived) Hihi Puffy Ami Yumi Show, based on the same Puffy, although having little to do with them beyond the pair introducing each cartoon, and the occasional Puffy song playing. And you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an anime DVD box set or manga if you go to a store like Waldens or FYE. It's actually getting kind of annoying in my opinion because honestly, if I wanted anime, I'd watch Bebop, not a cheap American made anime knockoff that's just riding on the popularity of anime to try to attract more viewers.

[greg]

Japanese gamers aren't bothered by English, because the majority of them learn English. MOST countries teach English in addition to their own language. How do you think I'm able to speak with my Swedish sister?

There is a big difference between studying the language enough to pass tests and actually understanding it. Japan's english ability is lagging way behind other countries, like Korea and especially Singapore. This is probably not very well known, so I'll let that pass. I imagine that the Swedes can carry a decent converstion in English. Japanese kids, after studying English for 6 years throughout junior high and high school, can barely get beyond "I like pizza" or "I want to visit America." Major disparity there.

As I stated, you want Japanese so badly, play the Japanese versions of the games. They're meant for people who want and understand Japanese.
Actually, I do sometimes. At least half of my games are imports, especially because I used to live in Japan. Plus, a lot of the type of games I am into are rather niche and don't ever make it over here. Atlus is a company that caters to a lot of these games, so that is why I am here. So yeah, I buy a lot of imports. I do, however, prefer to buy RPGs and such in English, for the same reason you do: to better understand the story. But I do buy J-RPGs on occasion as well, particularly ones that have never been released domestically. I was tempted to buy the Endless Fronteir RPG import because I didn't expect it to be released domestically.

But don't come crying to me, or demanding that companies NOT dub anything just because you have some idiotic idea in your head that nothing should ever be dubbed, the dubs are for people who WANT them, not people who DON'T.
Look, I am not the one crying or demanding here. You are. You're having a conniption fit because Atlus didn't dub Endless Frontier. I've actually sided with you for the most part, and you may remember that I genuinely wanted to understand your gripe in the other thread. It wasn't until I got to the bottom of your complaint and learned that you are only missing out on a minimal amount of dialogue that I really stopped caring.

Although I do typically hate listening to dubs, I am not anti-dubbing, even for anime and such. I just usually stay away from them since most of them can't get it right. I have watched French dubs of Disney movies and their voices are spot-on. A lot of Spanish dubs from Mexico are done very well too, since they can be rather faithful. However in the United States, there isn't the same emphasis on voice acting since we are the exporters of our culture for the most part. As a result, sometimes you get terrible dubs if the budget isn't there, like the original Bubblegum Crisis, or the Chaos Wars game dub. There are some really great dubbed anime, like Disney's dubs of the Miyazaki movies, Cowboy Bebop, Cromartie High, etc. I go see Miyazaki movies in the theater and watch them dubbed, but I have one friend who refuses to because they don't release the sub versions in theaters outside of California and New York, typically. I am not like him. I have never said that dubbing should never exist. Children can't keep up with subtitles, and some people have eyesight problems, for example. I just say that it is best to experience it in the original language, as an adult without any disabilties. The kind I really cannot stand are the ones who say, "I only watch dubbed stuff because I HATE listening to Japanese language." You are not one of these, and you have said that you have watched the SRT sub-only anime. That's cool.

What if they had dubbed Ico or Shadow of the Colossus into English? It would be silly and unnecessary. Leaving it alone in the ficticious language enhances the experience, even moreso leaving something in its original actual language. Your gripe about Giado and such can be turned the other way: why would an anime about Japanese school kids be dubbed in English and have everyone mispronounce each other's names? See? The argument goes both ways. Tee hee hee.

Again, I have already sided with you for the most part about the necessity for video games to be dubbed. I do tease the dub-only anime crowd, but that is about it. Don't lump me in the same group as the OP of this thread, Churchill. His stance was "either the J way or the highway." I am not complaining about dubs for the most part. A lot of people have complained about the dub job on Luminous Arc (can't remember if it was on here or elsewhere), but I think it is pretty decent.

Tell me, look at the top of the screen. What do you see? Do you see Atlus Japan Forums? Do you see the titles of threads spelled out in kanji? Hiragana perhaps? Maybe katakana? No, it says Atlus USA, and the majority of Americans do NOT understand Japanese. This is the American restaurant, not the Japanese restaurant. That means you have NO right to come here, demanding that they NEVER dub any of their games in English.
Again, you are accusing me of stuff I have never said. You're also being rather immature and antagonistic. As I said earlier in this very thread, "I'm not anti-dubbing, but I'm anti-BAD-dubbing." If there isn't the budget or feasibility to make a decent dub, don't bother is all I say. Apparently that is what Atlus did. Atlus dubs the vast majority of their games, and you have your knickers in a twist over one game that wasn't and you are demanding that everything be in English. Lame. Somebody from Atlus even gave you the reason why they didn't do it. Deal with it. I don't think somebody from Atlus will ever tell me why somebody thoughtit would be a good idea to have an annoying, whiny, nasal girl do the voice for Theo in Luminous Arc. You're lucky.

I am not demanding that Atlus never dubs any of their games. I have never said that. Has playing Endless Frontier made you so insane with rage at listening to Japanese that you are hallucinating when reading my posts? Dude, get a grip. The OP, Churchill, said "stop doing English language dubbing with English language subtitles." Direct your bellicose vitriol towards him, not me. :|

[RayFoxSith]

I agree with everything kelvinc had to say.

[Zacewing]

The thing is, it's ridiculous to demand any language other than English in the ENGLISH version of the game. It's like going into a Chinese restaurant, and demanding tacos, or going into an Italian restaurant and demanding sushi! If you want tacos, you go to a Mexican restaurant, if you want sushi, go to a Japanese restaurant. It's the same exact thing, if you want Japanese voices, go play the JAPANESE games and watch the JAPANESE anime, not the ENGLISH versions. And the companies shouldn't have to cater to these people who can't understand such a basic concept. If you want to play games and watch anime with the Japanese voices, then go learn to read, write, and speak Japanese. Instead of buying an English version of the game, then whining that the English version of the game is (GASP!) in English and not Japanese, go invest in some lessons, then once you've mastered the Japanese language you can have all the Japanese voices you want. And if you already DO know Japanese, then you've got no reason NOT to just get the Japanese versions, and leave those "awful dubs" for those of us who WANT them.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Superkenon]

This is actually kind of puzzling for me to observe. Most people here seems to understand this is all about personal preference, yet still argue like there's some kind of universal truth to be found in this mess.

Personally, I hold a fairly unique position here. I'm an enthusiast and student of the Japanese language, so naturally I enjoy playing these games and watching anime in their original language. But I also happen to be a fan and supporter of our local dubbing industry, and there are a great many dubs for games and anime alike that I have great respect for. I can be pleased by any manner of translation really, be they pretty literal ones or ones that do quite a bit of improvisation.

So I understand everyone's arguments, at least to a degree. But what I don't understand is trying to act like you must eliminate your opposition's preferred options.

I don't think it's unreasonable for the sub-fans to want a simple Japanese voice option, for instance. It's not like the English voices are removed when this happens... they're still there for those who want them, but there's also another choice for those who like it the other way more. It's silly to act like the mere OPTION being there somehow makes the game less enjoyable for you.

Of course, it is unreasonable to say to eliminate the English dubs entirely. It's exactly right that the primary language in a game should be the one understood by the people you're translating it for. But there's only about two people in this whole thread who have made this suggestion. The majority seem to just want the voice-over option.

Another debate I see going on here is about the quality of dubs. No matter how you look at it, this is all preference. Just because you hate a dub doesn't mean it's bad. On the same token, just because you love a dub doesn't mean all others have to. Such is the nature of opinions. You're free to express them, but you shouldn't try to pass them off as fact.

That said, let's just be friends. I love you all!!

[Clephas]

*yawns* Geez, this thread is still growing? I'd thought we'd more or less established the various arguments for both sides. There is a cut-off point to everything... could someone lock this thread?

[greg]

This is actually kind of puzzling for me to observe. Most people here seems to understand this is all about personal preference, yet still argue like there's some kind of universal truth to be found in this mess.
The only problem here is that Rurik is extremely bothered by the lack of a translation for the bits of spoken Japanese dialogue in the new SRT: Endless Frontier RPG for the DS. He doesn't seem to be totally anti-Japanese language. If there had been an in-game translation via subtitles or something, he wouldn't be this upset. I'm sure that Atlus figured that reactions from guys like him would be acceptable losses when they decided to leave the game undubbed. Naturally, a dual language option is the best way to go, and nobody can disagree with that. Sometimes however, it just isn't feasible when dealing with budgets, reprogramming, or storage capacity.

I rag on bad dubs and tease dub-only anime watchers by calling them illiterate, uncultured clods, with a smile and a wink of course. I have never said that dubs should never happen, although apparently I have been accused of that in a rather bizarre fashion. I am being accused of demanding that everything be in Japanese, although at most I would implore game companies to at least leave the Japanese dialogue in as an option if at all feasible. I have pointed out the difference between understanding the spoken language vs reading it, which is far more difficult, which is why I would appreciate the dual language option feature. Atlus did this with Odin Sphere and other games, for which I am grateful. I have even pointed out how game dubs are quite often necessary, and have given examples of decently dubbed games. I am really not on the complaining end here in this discussion. I'm merely sticking up for those of us who prefer the Japanesese audio, whether for learning or aesthetic purposes. I am just as puzzled as you are. facepalm.org, I guess.

*yawns* Geez, this thread is still growing? I'd thought we'd more or less established the various arguments for both sides. There is a cut-off point to everything... could someone lock this thread?
Lock it after I just mention that Giado and Garnet live in Japan with their new family after they retired from the EFA. In OG Gaiden, they meet up with Latooni, Arado and Seolla for a day in Asakusa. Can anyone here pronounce "Asakusa" properly? I bet Giado can! I bet he's mastered that silent "U" as well as he's mastered being a mecha pilot. :D

[dragonlife29]

Only do it as an afterthought, Atlus, if at all.

[SickleCellAnemia]

Holy crap, what in the flying #### happened in this thread??? :confused:

[kelvinc]

I rag on bad dubs and tease dub-only anime watchers by calling them illiterate, uncultured clods, with a smile and a wink of course.

Subtle sarcasm and "a smile and a wink" do not travel across text-based message boards. Let me point out that subtitled dialogue contain verbal conversations where such nuances are expressed, thereby pre-empting the obvious gaping argument against subtitles that your own attempts at humour have exposed. :roll:

I have even pointed out how game dubs are quite often necessary, and have given examples of decently dubbed games. I am really not on the complaining end here in this discussion.

Yes, by saying that the only people that should ever need them are children or the handicapped.

You like subtitled Japanese dialogue. I get it. Just try not to guess why some people do not. I'm not really against subtitles, but I do find it irritating that some think that there's an absolute scale of artistic merit and English dubbing automatically moves a game down that scale. My position is that characters that I don't expect to know Japanese (game setting outside Japan, or non-Japanese appearance) will seem out of place if they speak Japanese, and I think that the decision to dub English to alleviate that problem is a valid artistic decision.
(e.g. P4 in Japanese would be fine by me. FFXII? Not so much.)
That's a totally personal preference, one that I'm sure many people might find silly, but it's just different, not worse.

Maybe you don't think that such a scale exists, but your constant jabs against English dubbing and their users suggested otherwise.

This is actually kind of puzzling for me to observe. Most people here seems to understand this is all about personal preference, yet still argue like there's some kind of universal truth to be found in this mess.

There is no universal truth. But there is only one version of the localized game, which is why everyone dumped on the OP for demanding that this one version be stripped of English dubbing.

[dragonlife29]

Holy crap, what in the flying #### happened in this thread??? :confused:http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v197/marklar744/adgif1.gif

[kelvinc]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[Rurik]

If there had been an in-game translation via subtitles or something, he wouldn't be this upset.

He doesn't even care if it's IN game frankly, for all I care it could just be an insert in the back of the instruction manual with the dialogue translated to be read separately, or a downloadable script with it translated. I'd PREFER it to be dubbed, or even subtitled, but I'll settle for any translation I can get.

However, this thread is about the fools out there who constantly go on and on saying that all dubs are pure evil and demanding that they never be done, and that instead they just subtitle everything. I'll take subtitles if I can't get a dubbed version, but I prefer it to be dubbed, especially with anime because most of the time I'm multi-tasking, and if it's not dubbed I have to sit there and watch the entire thing without looking away, and I personally find it annoying having to rewind every thirty seconds because the subtitles flashed too fast for me to finish reading. And with video games, it's even worse because if the subtitles flash too fast for you to catch, you can't just rewind the scene, you have to reload a save, if you're lucky it was just before the cutscene, but half the time, it's right after a boss who you just BARELY survived the first time, and it already took you a good ten reloads to do THAT, now you have to repeat it all over again. No, that's BS, if I pay for the English version of Final Fantasy XII, I want English actors, not Japanese actors with subtitles that are going to flash by too fast for me to read, making me have to reload saves constantly.

[four_black_hearts]

Please lock. :very_sad:

[Olethros]

^ NO WAY. It's funny to watch others get irritated trying to make the same logical arguments I have in the past. It reminds me of all the time I've wasted trying to educate rocks. I've tried rewards, punishments, anything you can think of but that damned rock will NOT speak on command!

[Decept]

"Ha! Loser! The best you get is Trigun and Cowboy Bebop! WE get to keep all the REALLY good stuff to ourselves though!"

If the Japanese are holding out on something better than Cowboy Bebop, I'd give both my left nuts to see it.

I own both. I really, really like Trigun. Really.

^I hope this isn't locked. It is just a healthy discussion. It makes me realize even more that I have no understanding of the people who want JP voices without a sub/dub. I can understand the dub haters. But voices really are just icing to me, which I read earlier.

[Rednusander]

Please do not post in this thread if you:

A. Are going to appeal for us to lock it. We frown on this.

B. Are going to complain about the quality of the thread. It's not going to help; this debate is eternal.

C. Are going to respond to anything I've said here. I will be happy to address your concerns via PM.

Thus far, the discussion has been (mostly) intelligent and (mostly) civil. Please strive to keep it that way.

[chluophobi]

It's pretty funny hearing people complain about dub in anime when there are so many fan sub groups out there who put the episode out within the day it releases in Japan. I really don't see what they are complaining about.

I have heard some amazing and bad dub in all the years I have watched anime and played video games. Evangelion has a superior dub to the JP to me for some reason, Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, Escaflowne, and Yu Yu Hakusho wasn't too bad either. The one that stood out most was Golden Boy, whoever did Kintaro's VA was brilliant, he was also in Sorcerer Hunters.

Persona 4's VA's were a step up from 3's, but the honorifics will never cease to bother me, they are completely unnecessary. I hear the latest Persona on PSP is going to have VA's for certain scenes, if this is true I can't wait to hear them.

[Pibbman]

It's pretty funny hearing people complain about dub in anime when there are so many fan sub groups out there who put the episode out within the day it releases in Japan. I really don't see what they are complaining about.

I have heard some amazing and bad dub in all the years I have watched anime and played video games. Evangelion has a superior dub to the JP to me for some reason, Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, Escaflowne, and Yu Yu Hakusho wasn't too bad either. The one that stood out most was Golden Boy, whoever did Kintaro's VA was brilliant, he was also in Sorcerer Hunters.

Persona 4's VA's were a step up from 3's, but the honorifics will never cease to bother me, they are completely unnecessary. I hear the latest Persona on PSP is going to have VA's for certain scenes, if this is true I can't wait to hear them.

I think it's a matter of what you hear first for most people. For example, I watched Dragon Ball Z with english voices first, but later on when I got around to watching Dragon Ball Kai (DBZ remake, with same VA cast), I felt like stabbing my ears with the japanese voices.

However, there are cases where right off the bat I've heard english voices that are downright horrible.

Anyways, I like honorifics even if it seems funny in a english sentence. It lets me know how the relationship is between characters, after all Japan is a very hierarchical society and it IS a japanese game in a japanese setting so it makes sense.

[kelvinc]

It reminds me of all the time I've wasted trying to educate rocks. I've tried rewards, punishments, anything you can think of but that damned rock will NOT speak on command!

It's 'cuz you're a country-fried rube who's trying to train them to speak English. They're too smart for that kind of nonsense.

I personally like the honourifics but I can see how they can seem silly. To me, the characters are not so much "speaking in English" or "speaking in Japanese" as just "speaking", and Japanese people use honourifics when speaking with each other. But if you perceive them as "speaking in English" then it would be very jarring.

[chluophobi]

Well that's the thing, DBZ is a whole different ballpark. They completely redid the music, sound effects, and voice acting for the better in most cases.

You don't need honorifics to determine what kind a relationship one has with another. It's just something used in Japan that should have stayed in Japan, and of course this is my opinion.

[Clephas]

Well that's the thing, DBZ is a whole different ballpark. They completely redid the music, sound effects, and voice acting for the better in most cases.

You don't need honorifics to determine what kind a relationship one has with another. It's just something used in Japan that should have stayed in Japan, and of course this is my opinion.

Generally speaking, I'd say you are right. If the game is fantasy, like most jrpgs are, then using the -san, -chan, -sama, or -kun endings is pretty meaningless. However, if the game (or anime) is in a Japanese setting, the honorifics are often necessary to understand personal relationships as well as social ones. Yes, it sounds awkward, but it also helps define relationships in regards the culture the game or anime is based in. Of course, there are cases where the honorific can be replaced with a 'Mr.', 'Ms.', 'Mrs.', or 'Miss' without much disparity, but there are also places, such as in the frequent use of -chan as a diminutive name ending, where it is vital to understanding the relationship between the characters and there is simply no counterpart in the English language.

For this reason, I support entirely the use of the endings in the Persona and other SMT games.

On the other hand, I virulently oppose the refusal to translate certain terms in anime and games (ie. 'jutsu' in Naruto), as it just causes awkwardness while not having any positive benefits.

Of course, this is from the point of view of someone who often turns off the voices, so perhaps my opinion is somewhat less valid than those who have a passionate attachment to voice-acting.

[chluophobi]

Well that's the thing, DBZ is a whole different ballpark. They completely redid the music, sound effects, and voice acting for the better in most cases.

You don't need honorifics to determine what kind a relationship one has with another. It's just something used in Japan that should have stayed in Japan, and of course this is my opinion.

Generally speaking, I'd say you are right. If the game is fantasy, like most jrpgs are, then using the -san, -chan, -sama, or -kun endings is pretty meaningless. However, if the game (or anime) is in a Japanese setting, the honorifics are often necessary to understand personal relationships as well as social ones. Yes, it sounds awkward, but it also helps define relationships in regards the culture the game or anime is based in. Of course, there are cases where the honorific can be replaced with a 'Mr.', 'Ms.', 'Mrs.', or 'Miss' without much disparity, but there are also places, such as in the frequent use of -chan as a diminutive name ending, where it is vital to understanding the relationship between the characters and there is simply no counterpart in the English language.

For this reason, I support entirely the use of the endings in the Persona and other SMT games.

On the other hand, I virulently oppose the refusal to translate certain terms in anime and games (ie. 'jutsu' in Naruto), as it just causes awkwardness while not having any positive benefits.

Of course, this is from the point of view of someone who often turns off the voices, so perhaps my opinion is somewhat less valid than those who have a passionate attachment to voice-acting.

I still don't think they are necessary, even in a Japanese setting, the game is still very fantasy and fiction. It makes sense for the JP version, but does not fit in the NA, it's a thorn on my side. It is probably because NO other game that Atlus had localized used them, then comes Persona 3/4 and they magically appear.

I hope they plan on dropping them for Persona PSP..

[chluophobi]

Well that's the thing, DBZ is a whole different ballpark. They completely redid the music, sound effects, and voice acting for the better in most cases.

You don't need honorifics to determine what kind a relationship one has with another. It's just something used in Japan that should have stayed in Japan, and of course this is my opinion.

Generally speaking, I'd say you are right. If the game is fantasy, like most jrpgs are, then using the -san, -chan, -sama, or -kun endings is pretty meaningless. However, if the game (or anime) is in a Japanese setting, the honorifics are often necessary to understand personal relationships as well as social ones. Yes, it sounds awkward, but it also helps define relationships in regards the culture the game or anime is based in. Of course, there are cases where the honorific can be replaced with a 'Mr.', 'Ms.', 'Mrs.', or 'Miss' without much disparity, but there are also places, such as in the frequent use of -chan as a diminutive name ending, where it is vital to understanding the relationship between the characters and there is simply no counterpart in the English language.

For this reason, I support entirely the use of the endings in the Persona and other SMT games.

On the other hand, I virulently oppose the refusal to translate certain terms in anime and games (ie. 'jutsu' in Naruto), as it just causes awkwardness while not having any positive benefits.

Of course, this is from the point of view of someone who often turns off the voices, so perhaps my opinion is somewhat less valid than those who have a passionate attachment to voice-acting.

I still don't think they are necessary, even in a Japanese setting the game is still very fantasy and fiction. It makes sense for the JP version, but does not fit in the NA.. it's a thorn on my side. The fact that Atlus had not bothered to do this with games in the past is probably what is bugging me, then P3/4 show up and like magic, there they are.

I hope they plan on dropping them for Persona PSP..

Edit: For the record, I am not trying to put you guys down in any way. I thought the VA's (aside from the obvious) were very well done and hope you all keep up the good work you have been putting in these localizations.

[VMan]

http://kotaku.com/5250173/japanese-voices-on-xbox-360-final-fantasy-xiii-who-needs-em

The comments are essentially an extension to what is generally being discussed here.

[Onion of Mystery]

Which I guess goes to show that this argument, like history, is doomed to repeat itself. Let's not rehash it all over again here, please.

[chluophobi]

I'm not exactly trying to reiterate what others have in the past, it's just my opinion. It would be nice to read some other opinions and discussions now, particularly some comments from people who actually work on the games. (aka you mods)

[Rurik]

Well, I personally like the Japanese honorifics, I call my little sister Jo-Jo-Kun all the time. Yes I know kun is supposed to be male, that's the point. They're not what I would call either necessary nor completely out of place in an English dub, it's just one of those cases where they can do whatever they want so far as I'm concerned. Nobody ever complained about Daniel-san being used in the Karate Kid after all, and it was in English to begin with.

[arromdee]

Well, I personally like the Japanese honorifics, I call my little sister Jo-Jo-Kun all the time. Yes I know kun is supposed to be male, that's the point.

-kun isn't necessarily male and depending on your age, it may actually be correct.

[AbsyntheDelacroix]

No, please, let this thread die already.

[bucklemyshoe]

+1 to the list of people who can't stand the english voice acting and hope they would atleast include an option for original japanese language voices.

hell, they could even press up two different versions if there isn't enough room on the disc, one english and one japanese. (asian version games do this, ie star ocean)

i like to support atlus but i feel stupid when my copy of the game goes untouched after purchase because i'm too busy playing the fan made undubbs i downloaded for free instead.

[sandmanzero]

I'm really starting to think this English dub bashing is Psychosomatic now. I think people are just getting in a habit of bashing it just because it's in English and not Japanese. I honestly think some english speaking anime fans, hate hearing the english language spoken in any anime. No matter how good the english acting is. Some, won't even give credit to how well Cowboy Bebop was voiced in english and that's just plain sick.

[Soushi_Grapple]

For the record, I much prefer the original SO2 to the remake. I love Spike Spencer, but he makes a crappy Claude. I don't like the liberties Enix took this time around in changing alot of the names of places, ect. but that didn't stop me from buying it and playing it for the sheer sake that its portable and the VAs were decent. I'll admit, I could never use Precis or Chisato (and as much as I love Opera, she has one clip that makes ears bleed down the street).

I don't see what the big deal is. If you want the original subbed plot, be a good sport and import it using a GameFAQs script guide or go about other means, but just know that if you refuse to buy a game over something so trivial there's a chance you won't get the next one and it may have had the dual language option. >>

Speaking of, I'm a little ticked about Sony/Square going on an import rampage. I'm trying to import FF:Dissidia from the UK and since they've been cracking down on those sites, it makes it near impossible. >> If they hadn't shafted us over our LE for it, I wouldn't be importing it! Besides, you think they'd want all the money they could stuff their pockets with. I wish they would listen to their fans like Atlus does ;__; Ever since FFX, the games have been crap, maybe save Crisis Core.

Also, I give you a toast ATLUS, you guys get good actors, even back in the day. It's what makes games that rely heavily on scenes (ala Thousand Arms) more fun. Imagine something like that having to read subtitles... and I dont know about you guys but I have some... slower... friends that can't read subtitles very well and if they go to fast it makes it near impossible to play without english dialogue. I like being able to turn away and answer someone for two seconds and still hear whats going on. It's less strain on the eyes ^_^

[Hraesvelgr]

hell, they could even press up two different versions if there isn't enough room on the disc, one english and one japanese. (asian version games do this, ie star ocean)

i like to support atlus but i feel stupid when my copy of the game goes untouched after purchase because i'm too busy playing the fan made undubbs i downloaded for free instead.Making two different versions is a waste, as the sub only version would very likely have extremely minimal sales. It's also doubtful that Sony would let something like that slide, since they generally seem to hate anything that's 2D and/or not dubbed. Still, at least you support Atlus by buying their games, even if you do end up playing a version with text that doesn't really match the voice acting.

Some, won't even give credit to how well Cowboy Bebop was voiced in english and that's just plain sick.Yeah, that is a shame, especially since a lot of people who are pro-sub/anti-dub constantly make arguments about how the Japanese language fits better for a certain setting (Persona, for example).

For the record, I much prefer the original SO2 to the remake. I love Spike Spencer, but he makes a crappy Claude. I don't like the liberties Enix took this time around in changing alot of the names of places, ect. but that didn't stop me from buying it and playing it for the sheer sake that its portable and the VAs were decent. I'll admit, I could never use Precis or Chisato (and as much as I love Opera, she has one clip that makes ears bleed down the street).As for me, the PSP version was a godsend. I absolutely adore Star Ocean 2, but the voice acting and bizarre translation in the original PSX release made it impossible to play after a while. Some of the names are a bit out there in the PSP release and some of the voice work is still pretty crappy (Ashton), but it's an improvement overall.

[PainKilleR-[CE]]

Making two different versions is a waste, as the sub only version would very likely have extremely minimal sales. It's also doubtful that Sony would let something like that slide, since they generally seem to hate anything that's 2D and/or not dubbed.

I agree with your point, which is why I generally ask for dual-language (rather than no dubs), but Sony has released their own titles without dubs, and a lot of 2D titles made it to the PS1 and PS2. There have been various rumors from the time the PS1 arrived in the US about the requirements to bring a game over, but few (if any) of them have been substantiated other than that SoA has to green light it.

[sandmanzero]

Some, won't even give credit to how well Cowboy Bebop was voiced in english and that's just plain sick.Yeah, that is a shame, especially since a lot of people who are pro-sub/anti-dub constantly make arguments about how the Japanese language fits better for a certain setting (Persona, for example).

I recently just bought a movie called "Sword of the Stranger" and that movie has an outstanding english dub. The english voice actors are pitch perfect with the japanese voice actors. Bandai/Ocean group hit it out of the ballpark with this dub. Too bad they won't get the recoginition they deserve because they speak english.

[Yukichin]

Hm. I personally like the option for dual audio (pretty much, so I can hear the differences in the voices themselves). But even if they can't have dual audio... as long as the translation/localization is faithful to the original, I don't mind.

For instance... well, the first thing that comes to mind is an anime: Sailor Moon. The basic plot was mostly the same, but so much was cut and edited in the English version that I prefer a Japanese-language, subtitled version instead.

In something like, say, Tales of Eternia... the dubbing was absolutely horrible. (Keele's, "fireBAWL!", anyone?) But I didn't mind it because I understood the text, the music was decent, and I got to play the game.

Then we get to Persona 4, which I enjoy the dubbing for. I wouldn't mind being able to hear the original voice actors as well, but it's not a huge deal because the dubbing is great and I have the English text. Sure, Japanese voices tend to put a bit more emotion (or sound like they do; I'm not fluent in Japanese so I'm not completely sure), but dubbing has come a long way since, say, Star Ocean 2 and Tales of Eternia.

As for honorifics... I like being able to see the relationship they present, in Persona 3 and 4. I've heard that they're actually considered rude to use in English (though don't quote me on that), and there might be a way to convey the attitude without using them... so I really have no opinion, because I like them but I wouldn't mind not having them as well.

(Oh! And someone mentioned early on in the thread that they disliked how verbose Mitsuru was in Persona 3. Isn't that simply because she was supposed to be a smart, verbose character?)

[Deidara]

I totally agree with Churchill

[Silverevilchao]

I have to say, the first time I found out that Persona 3 didn't have Japanese voice acting as an option, I was pissed off. Primarily because I started playing it right after playing Final Fantasy X, in which the English voice actor for Yuna desperately needed to be shot for that crappy performance.

But I was pleasantly surprised with the dubbing for Personas 3 and (especially) 4. Easily the best dubs I've ever heard. No one on these forums can deny the awesomeness that were Junpei's and Kanji's voices in their respective games. Not to mention the fact that pretty much EVERY professional review I've read for Persona 4 that compared JP vs US stated that Teddie's voice was twenty gazillion times better in the English dub.

And lack of emotion in the US dubs? Seriously? If we were talking about half the voice actors in Final Fantasy X, then, yeah, sure, I'll agree with you. But the voice actors, ESPECIALLY Yuri freaking Lowenthal (Yosuke, Yosuke, and Yosuke), put a crapload of emotion in there. Hell, one of, if not THE, main reasons why I bought Adachi's evilness in Persona 4 was BECAUSE of the voice acting, despite being totally out of left field.

Also, it was brought up on the first page of the topic that the lines aren't directly translated, not to mentioned rearranged, etc.. I couldn't agree more. I can understand Japanese, and it would be extremely jarring if I heard one thing and read another (which is what happens to me to a minor extent in fansubbed anime - I get both the literal translation and the "indirect" translation). Odin Sphere wasn't too bad about this, but I still found it amusing when I found myself wondering "now why didn't they translate THAT line literally?". Furthermore, there's the simple issue of the fact that there are some sayings in Japanese that CAN'T be directly translated ("Chigau!" and, to a lesser extent, "yokatta" being two of them). This is one of the main reasons why the Persona games left the honorifics in, because it's simply impossible to express that relationship in English in such a fashion.

[LadyMiaow]

I don't mind them dubbing it at all if they feel so inclined; it's reasonable for it to be dubbed into the language the given demographic speaks, fanboys or not.

However, I like having the Japanese track option there regardless, if not just as an excuse to play the game a second time. The Japanese track isn't always the better option (every now and then, the dub is actually better), but sometimes the medium just doesn't work in English; it wasn't made with our manner of speaking in mind, so sometimes it just sounds awkward when we take a crack at it. Other times, the English actors just didn't work out for whatever reason. I honestly had to turn the voices off in Luminous Arc 2.

Other times, the Japanese voices are just boring, or outright worse. To refer to Persona 3 again, the Japanese voices are almost all standard, cookie cutter archetypes we've heard in ninety percent of modern Japanese works. If you're at all familiar with Japanese media, everyone sounds exactly like what you'd expect them to; this isn't necessarily a good thing. Don't get me wrong, it's a good performance, but it's not particularly exciting. To use a popular anime example, Gundam Wing (not a stellar performance on either side of the pond, and a merely okay anime itself, but anyway)'s Japanese actors are flat out annoying on occasion; Duo Maxwell's Japanese actor makes me want to beat my head against a wall, while his English dub counterpart sounds much more appropriate, and even likable.

Ultimately, dual audio is the best option for anything Japanese. Sometimes it doesn't work in English, and some people would just rather hear it in its native language even if it did.

Afterthought: Another good reason for dual audio is to see what a good actor in either language can bring to a given character, if you care enough about the performance aspect of things. Sometimes (even if rarely), a talented actor can bring a completely different feel to a character without changing the character itself merely by playing him differently than his English or Japanese counterpart. It's interesting to see what differences occur when the dubber isn't merely trying to emulate the original track.

On the other hand, it can be equally impressive to see an English actor emulate his Japanese counterpart well, to translate the feel into English, which, as I mentioned before, isn't easy given cultural and linguistics differences.

[Blackwing Dragon]

What I don't understand is in some japanese-exclusive games, or even just before a game gets localized, you can find a perfectly american \ european \ western audio track. A good example of this is the "Japanese dramatic trailer" for DISASTER : Day of Crisis (Nintendo Wii 2008). Japanese katakana but english dubs...

Back on topic, indeed. Even if the english voices don't EPIC FAIL (Persona 4 was pretty nice tbh. Teddie's voice was far better than the japanese Kuma's one...which shocked me XD), fans want to be a little closer to tht wonderful culture that I can only describe as Nippon Ichi =3.

Edit : you know what would be sexy? TEXT TUTORIALS for Japanese.
Like if you have japanese audio enabled, you can also get "Tutorial text". When certain words are repeated often, a subtitle would fade in and, in english, tell you what that word was. As an added option you could also "Tutorial pause" - if requested, this would pause the game at appropriate moments and highlight the set of katakana being spoken, or atleast vaguely go into the meaning(s) of the word (or maybe the puns that don't translate well).
Text is annoying to do, but certainly not as spacey as audio, amirite?

[Onion of Mystery]

That sounds suspiciously like you not only want Japanese audio, but you want us to teach you Japanese, too.

Just razzing you, but that's really pretty infeasible unless that sort of functionality is already implemented in the game. Unless the game has already been created with the intention of teaching the player to read kanji, I very much doubt that's going to happen.

I'd recommend Dinosaurs and Hiragana or Slime Forest if that's what you're looking for.

[ahndoruuu]

I don't see the point of having Japanese audio in a game localized for North America. Kinda defeats the purpose of localizing, no? Most people will want to play a game in a language they can understand thoroughly; this enriches the game experience as a whole. If that's you and you can understand Japanese thoroughly, why not just play the Japanese version of the game? There's many considerations in placing a second audio track in the game, and since only a decidedly niche crowd insists on the Japanese audio, it's really not worth the time to implement it, is it?

[Blackwing Dragon]

I dare you to go and get games that have atrocious localized audio, it will make you cry and bleed.
Example.
Naruto. Huge anime. Big hit, awesome series.
Japan : Story intact, elements and terms intact, graphics intact (Blood and gore etc).
When it came to THAT continent, the sexy opening music was cut and replaced with some crappy 2-beat ew "song". Around one of the first episodes when naruto stabs himself in the palm to make a point, there is no blood (f*in ghosts ;-D).
IT's just laughable what some people do, ya know.

Back on topic, yeeeahahhhh maybe pausing to show you how to read the katakana would be bad, if a word is repeated enough, maybe popping in the meaning is not a bad idea. important words and terms, you know? Trouble, help, where are you, are you okay, where is the police station :-P. That sort of thing.

[Iris]

If I wanted to know how to ask where the police station is in Japanese, I'd go pop open a textbook. I just want my games to be games. :(

[Blackwing Dragon]

You're missing the point of having it as an OPTION
Some of us would greatly appreciate that.

[Iris]

It just seems really, really superfluous for the work it would take to put it in, IMO.

[Tello, the Hark!]

This is why I'm and NIS faithful

[kelvinc]

Wow I've been away for months and this thread is still here?

Just thought I'd remind everyone in this fascinating debate to watch tonight's Conan. When watching, remember:

That sense of familiarity you're feeling? It's because anime dubs like those are not that far in the past, if in the past at all.
Wow, we're pretty damn lucky to have Atlus.


I'll leave it at that for now. They haven't uploaded the sketch clip online yet, but those out in the West still has time to catch it.

[Clephas]

Good god, this thread is still going? Onion was right, this is an eternal argument. As a side-note to my exclamation of written astonishment, I want to say that putting translation notes into the game would be very pointless. The need to explain each and every little thing would add large numbers of lines that would clutter up disc space for no good reason, especially considering that your average gamer probably isn't interested. Whereas the ones who just want the jp voices in and those who don't are roughly split half and half, thus giving support for an argument, if not any kind of necessity.

When it comes down to it, those who want Japanese voices want it, and those who don't, don't. Neither is going to change the mind of the other, and in the end it is the choice of the company localizing the game to put them in or not. Not that there is any excuse not to with a PS3 game (sorry, a bit off-topic there).

Anyway... what I'd like to say at the last is that continuing this argument is pointless, and this thread is just a constantly growing hateful cancer on the forum... like a conversation about abortion or the death penalty.

[kelvinc]

http://www.tonightshowwithconanobrien.com/video/clips/conan-and-andy-do-manga-072409/1139088/

The semblance of the final dubbed scene to actual crappy dubbed anime is too eerie. As the guy that's been arguing that dub haters need to be more accommodating, I still have to admit that maybe you guys have a point. :tongue:

[Hraesvelgr]

I dare you to go and get games that have atrocious localized audio, it will make you cry and bleed.
Example.
Naruto. Huge anime. Big hit, awesome series.
Japan : Story intact, elements and terms intact, graphics intact (Blood and gore etc).
When it came to THAT continent, the sexy opening music was cut and replaced with some crappy 2-beat ew "song". Around one of the first episodes when naruto stabs himself in the palm to make a point, there is no blood (f*in ghosts ;-D).
IT's just laughable what some people do, ya know.Indeed, how dare they make some minor changes to get it to air on a television station for children, even though they still offer you completely uncut versions elsewhere! Outside of that, it's not really much different from the Japanese version... except it's in English. But, it doesn't really make a difference to me either way, since Naruto is pretty bad and, when it comes down to it, it's still a show for kids. Now, if you had mentioned One Piece (which is also terrible), you might've been onto something...

This is why I'm and NIS faithfulCan't imagine why... The fact that they have a Japanese language option is certainly novel, but by the time they're done localizing it, the text you read is so different from what's being said that it's ridiculous. I don't mind when companies take a few liberties when it comes to translation, but it's almost like a completely different game by the time they're through with it. And this isn't even getting into the other issues with their releases...

[Zacewing]

I really don't see why they NEED to add Japanese voices. It's pretty pointless, really.

[Blackwing Dragon]

IN two words?
Replay value.

[Clephas]

I really don't see why they NEED to add Japanese voices. It's pretty pointless, really.

Umm... it wouldn't be 'adding' the Japanese voices. Rather, the English voices are 'added'. It would be keeping something there was never any need to get rid of. However, that is in the case of games that actually have the necessary free space on the disc. On games where there is no extra free space or too little, its reasonable to use only one voice track.

And Black Dragon, two voice tracks only adds replay value for people who are insane enough to actually replay a game based on VA.

[Blackwing Dragon]

1)BlackWING
2)Not really. The original dubs are always, ALWAYS more natural. natural. you know, because they come from japan?
3)The original voices always act better. They don't necessarily sound better (Japanese teddie creeps me out) but they do feel more emotional, they do a better act to their character.
It adds a lot.

[nicholai441]

wow, this thread is long but i will add my 2cents into this fray... in a manner of speaking.

i support dual audio option... alot.

here are my reasons of why i'd like the japanese audio to be optional in a game:

1.(main reason) to hear what the japanese vocal director wanted for the character. there are some games that had no japanese audio or used both languages in the japanese game. IE: resident evil/bio hazard series and folklore/folk soul was english audio only and ace combat 5 used both english and japanese (the japanese trailer for the game was in english audio)

2. because SOME english voices are terrible compared to japanese voices. IE: gundam fans will know what i mean when i say: Haro.
for those who don't know what i mean: the voices of robots. the common US voice is robotic and dull where as the japanese one is... still a bit robotic, but cute (yes i said "cute"). so when a robot repeats it's words 5 times over in the english version it sounds annoying and makes you want to kill the thing, but in the japanese version it sounds cute, fun and cheerful.

3. hearing a voice that i'm used to. what i mean by this is with games that are based off animes. if i watched the anime in japanese i would like to hear the voice in japanese, because that's the voice i am used to hearing for that character. it sort of goes the same with seeing the japanese trailer for a game that came out to english.
it doesn't feel right hearing the voice in one tone (yes, i said the tone) one way and then hearing it completely different in another way. the english audio for gundam is infamous for this really. look at dynasty warriors gundam 2, i don't know the reason, but supposedly most of the voice actors who played in the animes didn't come back to play their character in the game. only a few of them did. where as in the japanese version most (if not all of them) did.

4. attraction. i'm quite attracted to some of the japanese voices, some of them sounds really nice. i think that's one reason i like japanese music.

that's the only things i can think of at the moment, there are more but i don't have 100% frame of thought on the topic at the moment so i'll need to think it over a bit more.

also please note that i said "SOME english voices are terrible". meaning there are quite a bit that i like and am alright with. IE: Tara strong (did good as rachel in ninja gaiden sigma), Johnny yong bosch (he did good as nero in devil may cry 4), laura bailey(did good as reime in star ocean and as chun li in street fighter IV), etc.

well that's my 2 cents.

[Foobar]

I'm in favor of dual audio tracks where its practical, but I can see where something like 360 or Wii might face limitations if the game content itself takes up a lionshare of the disc space.

Also, I wish people would stop insisting that english voices are added and that japanese languages are not. Animated characters have no native tounge in which they speak - voices must be given to them, thus, voices are added to both versions. The only thing that's originally in Japanese is the script. Some games are localized for different regions side-by-side now.

All that said, the only time I ever forcibly moved myself to the Japanese dub of any game was Onimusha 2. But then, that was a bad English dub by bad Japanese actors who were overacting. And its funny when the obsessive need for japanese voices is clear, like when people complain about the "english dub" in something like Knights in the Knightmare or Resident Evil... which were only ever in English.

[nicholai441]

Also, I wish people would stop insisting that english voices are added and that japanese languages are not. Animated characters have no native tounge in which they speak - voices must be given to them, thus, voices are added to both versions. The only thing that's originally in Japanese is the script. Some games are localized for different regions side-by-side now.




in that case, isn't that a better reason to have dual audio in a game?

if both japanese and english audio is already in the game then why not have the option to switch between the two.

of course i guess one of the big reasons would be "the red tape". the legal and contract issues, the "nitty gritty" things that make up regional gaming.

here's a question to the officials though:
i've recently heard sometimes the ideas and plans that the game publishers and developers have for a game, and what the PR (public relations -i guess-) and legals and all that, are usually very different and "never the two shall meet". so i am wondering if there are anyone in Altus that would like dual audio in most or many of their games?

[lily]

recent atlus games have pretty excellent dubs, so not too fussed when an smt game doesn't come with the japanese track.

a game like eternal sonata though, so glad that had the option of being able to switch the language track. and like mentioned before, something like the yakuza games just seem silly with english voices. it was so jarring to listen to what some of the random encounter thugs had to say in the first game.

[nicholai441]

while writing a game request a thought came to me.

i mentioned this in one way already.
but here's what i hope will be a better understanding as to it.

with some games either games based on animes, or a sequel to another game when a character does not have the same VA as in the prequel or the anime. it doesn't seem right.

it's like when the writer for a series is cut and a new writer takes their place. the series just doesn't have the same feel.
in some ways it's more important for vocals because we get used to hearing the voice from one VA. then have to get used to hearing the voice of another VA. Xenosaga was one of the game that had this problem (as well as gundam and zoids).

(that thought reminds me of another thought that US VAs should be paired with a japanese VA and do the same animes or games.
yeah, it's a really bad idea. it's just a thought.)

anyway. as i was saying.. most of the time (there are time i found a different VA voice a character for the sequel to a game) in japanese audio the VA for a character will continue into the sequel.

so all in all, one of the reasons i support dual audio is so people who want to hear it in english can (even if it's not the same VAs) and people who want to hear it in japanese because they may have gotten used to the japanese voices can hear it in japanese.

come to think of it, capcom had a good idea with street fighter IV. they made a setting where you can choose what characters you want to hear in japanese and what characters you want to hear in english.

one of the reason i don't care too much for english audio is because sometimes the english audio sounds like a joke.
IE: i've seen some big size characters that are supposed to be mean and threatening have the voice of a.... well, they had a small voice that sounded like it would go better with someone small and wimpy (the character had a deep threatening voice in japanese version).

i can't say anything about the english voices in altus games because i don't know what atlus games i've played at the moment.

[Hitoshura]

one of the reason i don't care too much for english audio is because sometimes the english audio sounds like a joke.
IE: i've seen some big size characters that are supposed to be mean and threatening have the voice of a.... well, they had a small voice that sounded like it would go better with someone small and wimpy (the character had a deep threatening voice in japanese version).

No. This is not Megaman X4. This is 2009. This does not happen anymore.

I do not support dual audios for the simple fact that there are too many "purists" out there who won't even bother giving the English dubs a chance and thus simply delude themselves into thinking Japanese voices are still better.

[Olethros]

^ Have I ever told you how much I respect you Hito?

If not, I should have a long time ago. Among many other reasons, I agree with Hito's take onit 100% as well.

[Rednusander]

one of the reason i don't care too much for english audio is because sometimes the english audio sounds like a joke.
IE: i've seen some big size characters that are supposed to be mean and threatening have the voice of a.... well, they had a small voice that sounded like it would go better with someone small and wimpy (the character had a deep threatening voice in japanese version).

No. This is not Megaman X4. This is 2009.

No, Hito! They'll suspect you've become a Maverick!

[Kyuketsukimiyu]

I do not support dual audios for the simple fact that there are too many "purists" out there who won't even bother giving the English dubs a chance and thus simply delude themselves into thinking Japanese voices are still better.

Saying something like this shows the same attitude as those who you are accusing of being purist. I respect English dubs, they create a more immersive experience for many English speakers. And it makes sense that a company should include one. But I'm always thankful for a language choice, and I appreciate the extra effort it took for them to program it in.
Taking extremist views like "Only dubs!!" or "Only Japanese!!!" just seem like bad business to me. I don't understand why either side need so viciously defend their preferred language. I'm not saying don't let Atlus know when you appreciate the Japanese option, or if you think a game's dub is good; it just seems pointless to take this issue so personally.

[nicholai441]

one of the reason i don't care too much for english audio is because sometimes the english audio sounds like a joke.
IE: i've seen some big size characters that are supposed to be mean and threatening have the voice of a.... well, they had a small voice that sounded like it would go better with someone small and wimpy (the character had a deep threatening voice in japanese version).

No. This is not Megaman X4. This is 2009. This does not happen anymore.



oh so that's why some recent games have a bad grade for vocals and is sometimes followed with "the vocals did not match the characters" . because it's 2009 and unmatched vocals don't happen anymore.

[Flußkönig]

one of the reason i don't care too much for english audio is because sometimes the english audio sounds like a joke.
IE: i've seen some big size characters that are supposed to be mean and threatening have the voice of a.... well, they had a small voice that sounded like it would go better with someone small and wimpy (the character had a deep threatening voice in japanese version).

No. This is not Megaman X4. This is 2009. This does not happen anymore.



oh so that's why some recent games have a bad grade for vocals and is sometimes followed with "the vocals did not match the characters" . because it's 2009 and unmatched vocals don't happen anymore.
Could you be any less specific? What games are you talking about and who exactly said that the vocals did not match the characters?

[nicholai441]

at the moment it's the best i got, i don't usually pay attention to or try to remember things like that. i have seen some, i think i've also played some.
but then it would be me that says the vocals don't match the character and not other gamers.

so aside from me, i can't think of anyone else. as for the games i've said the vocals didn't match i don't remember.

come to think of it the only game (at the moment) that i can think of is Zoids Battle legends, but that was for the gamecube.
star ocean last hope got a bad rating for vocals, but i'm not sure if it was that the characters didn't match the vocals.. maybe some didn't although that game does have some type of vocal problem.

hm.. contemplating everything a little.. it really depends on the game (and the gamer).

RPGs are alright with one language, in english a person doesn't have to read translations to understand the what's going on, and now with RPGs having so many cut-scenes now, you can just watch the scenes instead of trying to understand what their sayinga nd taking in everything that's going on in the clip.
but there are some games that dual audio is just fun to have. like fighting games or action games.

being able to compare the vocals is fun, then you can decide if the vocal matches better in japanese or english.
if the voice is too deep or too light. there does seem to be that difference. some character in the japanese vocal has a high voice then in the english they have a deep voice.

if only there was a way to sync the vocal tones so that they sound the same no matter what language their in.

i guess until that's developed there will always be those who want japanese audio, those who want english audio, and those who want both.
the masses will never meet.

it's interesting, i had read something about dynasty warriors and who supposedly they took out the language option from the game, so now some of the fans don't play the games because you can't switch the audio.

[Hitoshura]

star ocean last hope got a bad rating for vocals, but i'm not sure if it was that the characters didn't match the vocals.. maybe some didn't although that game does have some type of vocal problem.


Nope, the voices in SO4 match just fine. NOT EXACTLY LIKE JAPANESE VOICES =/= voices don't match. Few people stop to think that there might be a REASON Lymle speaks so weirdly, and bother to read her character profile to find out.

but there are some games that dual audio is just fun to have. like fighting games or action games.

No, because again, this leads to people playing Blazblue yelling about how the voices aren't good, when honestly it's one of the best dubs I've ever heard.

being able to compare the vocals is fun, then you can decide if the vocal matches better in japanese or english.
if the voice is too deep or too light. there does seem to be that difference. some character in the japanese vocal has a high voice then in the english they have a deep voice.

But how do you really know if it is better? You don't, and that's that.

Example: People who complain about Aigis. "OMG SHE DOESN'T SOUND ROBOTIC IN JAPANESE, WHY DOES SHE SOUND ROBOTIC IN ENGLISH, HER ENGLISH VOICE SUCKS". Also, to relate to a different thread, that is an example of an incorrect opinion. Spoilers: Aigis is a robot. Sounding robotic is dictated differently across the language. I cannot speak from personal experience, but from the people I know who DO know Japanese, Aigis speaks in a robotic fashion in Japanese. A clear example of ignorance and delusion.


i guess until that's developed there will always be those who want japanese audio, those who want english audio, and those who want both.
the masses will never meet.

This is true.

it's interesting, i had read something about dynasty warriors and who supposedly they took out the language option from the game, so now some of the fans don't play the games because you can't switch the audio.

...That is just sad. And pathetic. Sad and pathetic.

[Gen Eric Gui]

Hito has already said everything I was going to say, but I wanted to chime in anyway and agree that anybody who refuses to play a game because it doesn't have a Japanese vocal track, regardless of the English track's quality, is a terrible person.

[IceCold_Assassin]

Honestly my stance on this: if its possible would be nice, but its not even close to being an absolute necessity. I mean theres no way a game like persona 4 is gonna have that much voice data to have both voices. and saying the japanese version is superior just because its japanese is stupid.

[Hamel]

But, I don't think you can argue that a language doesn't sound better if you don't know it.
I will give an example that's not Japanese VS English so people won't start arguing about it.
I have watched Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in both Hebrew and in English.
Putting aside the fact that the show has a ton of jokes, (thus translating it to another language will have to make it a totally different joke) the English version did SOUND better even when I was small and I barely knew English.
There was one repeating sentence that they did better in Hebrew because it sounds like a pun and in English it's just normal ("You are getting on my nerves Turtles") but that's about it. The English version is superior to the Hebrew version and it's probably because that's the voices that fit the character's personality most.


That said, there are some good dubs out there and if the dub is good the company doesn’t have to add another track if it will take too much space or make it cost way too much.

[Hitoshura]

The Aigis example is all that was needed.

Admittedly, there are SOME bad dubs in English, for example, I do not find the Higurashi dub to be very enjoyable. But I am basing that off of the script, because I actually know English and some things just did not translate very well at all. As for the voices matching the characters? They match just fine. Like I said, my issue lies with the script instead of the voices matching. Why? Because usually the voices match in English dubs, and like I said, I actually know English so I have the knowledge necessary to actually criticize the acting and script. But silly purists go off spouting how the voices "don't match" just because they don't sound exactly the same as they do in Japanese, which is just ridiculous. They also complain about things being changed (such as cultural jokes) and how fansubs are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better because OMG THEY TRANSLATE THIS SO WELL (despite that they don't know a lick of Japanese themselves so how in the world do they know how to criticize the translation?) This is localization, not transliteration.

[nicholai441]

star ocean last hope got a bad rating for vocals, but i'm not sure if it was that the characters didn't match the vocals.. maybe some didn't although that game does have some type of vocal problem.


Nope, the voices in SO4 match just fine. NOT EXACTLY LIKE JAPANESE VOICES =/= voices don't match. Few people stop to think that there might be a REASON Lymle speaks so weirdly, and bother to read her character profile to find out.




i guess until that's developed there will always be those who want japanese audio, those who want english audio, and those who want both.
the masses will never meet.

This is true.

it's interesting, i had read something about dynasty warriors and who supposedly they took out the language option from the game, so now some of the fans don't play the games because you can't switch the audio.

...That is just sad. And pathetic. Sad and pathetic.

about star ocean, the only problem i had with it was the voice syncing.
for many of the characters. there were times where the mouth would move but nothing came out until after it stopped. or sometimes the mouth won't move and vocals came out. that aside it was good.

about the response after that, wow the first time i was agreed with. all hope is not lost.

and lastly about the thing i read about dynasty warriors. it's a good thing it's not me then. i just don't play the game because it doesn't appeal to me as a game.

can we put this thread to rest, it's starting to annoy me and it most likely annoys everyone else. at this point we're just going around in circles about how the "normal" ones are saying US game should ONLY have english voices, and the "purest" are saying there should be japanese voices, and the neutral ones are saying it should have both.

personally i don't understand what the problem is for the "normals" if someone request a language option, it's not like that's going to up the price of the game in stores. the game is still going to be $40 to $80 regardless of if it has a language option or not. so what's the big deal?

now we can look at this topic in a sales point of view.

i guess living near the border of japan in regards to US and japan borders
i've grown up around alot of people who preferred the japanese audio of animes and games more then the english audio.

[Sheky]

Some people like dual audio. It's not an either or option, especially for games on bluray.

If it's physically possible, then why not? From a business stand point is pretty dumb to not offer something a customer wants especially if the demand is not that demanding.

All this argument about the merits of sub vs dub is retarded. It's a preference and just leave it as that. You might as well go around ice cream parlours telling people it's "wrong" to prefer vanilla over chocolate.

[Clephas]

Some people like dual audio. It's not an either or option, especially for games on bluray.

If it's physically possible, then why not? From a business stand point is pretty dumb to not offer something a customer wants especially if the demand is not that demanding.

All this argument about the merits of sub vs dub is retarded. It's a preference and just leave it as that. You might as well go around ice cream parlours telling people it's "wrong" to prefer vanilla over chocolate.

I definitely agree. This is an issue of preference rather than actual merit, when it comes to games in bluray and games in general. While I do have strong feelings toward one end of the spectrum, I don't think that the argument that all Japanese voices are better or the equally specious argument that English VA's have 'caught up' are valid. There are a lot of reasons for preferring it one way or another, but they are all matters of opinion rather than of any real merit (including my own remnant instinct from years of insisting one side was better).

The real question you should be asking is whether - in the age of bluray - there is a reason not to include both voice tracks that is not a matter of someone's personal opinions or ideals.

So far I've only come up with two possibly valid reasons. One is the issue of royalties to the Japanese VAs... and I'm not even sure that is an issue since, the last time I heard, most VAs were paid by commission. The second is traditional company policy, which is an issue that actually seems to exist... though it is one that isn't relevant to the consumer.

As for the other extremist side, the primary argument, that there is no need for English VAs, is equally specious as there are millions of poor souls out there that are incapable of comprehending the flow of a scene from text (this is why VAs came into such frequent use in rpgs in the first place) and vocal tones in another language. While it can be argued that this is a personal issue, it is also a practical one, as if you can't reach your target audience, it kind of defeats the point of releasing the game in the first place.

ALL of the rest of this issue is a matter of personal aesthetics that can't be resolved by battering each other with language and rhetoric (god, both sides are almost as bad as an organized religion). I really do hope that someone locks this thread now, as this argument has gone on way too long and the temptation to keep posting here is like that of a recovering addict being presented with a syringe of his drug of choice on a silver platter.

(As a final side-note, there are a number of games that I prefer in English, even though my general preference is for Japanese voices. Lunar: Silver Star, Digital Devil Saga, and... actually mostly Atlus titles now that I think about it. Hurray for Atlus. heh...)

[nicholai441]

Some people like dual audio. It's not an either or option, especially for games on bluray.

If it's physically possible, then why not? From a business stand point is pretty dumb to not offer something a customer wants especially if the demand is not that demanding.

All this argument about the merits of sub vs dub is retarded. It's a preference and just leave it as that. You might as well go around ice cream parlours telling people it's "wrong" to prefer vanilla over chocolate.

I definitely agree. This is an issue of preference rather than actual merit, when it comes to games in bluray and games in general. While I do have strong feelings toward one end of the spectrum, I don't think that the argument that all Japanese voices are better or the equally specious argument that English VA's have 'caught up' are valid. There are a lot of reasons for preferring it one way or another, but they are all matters of opinion rather than of any real merit (including my own remnant instinct from years of insisting one side was better).

The real question you should be asking is whether - in the age of bluray - there is a reason not to include both voice tracks that is not a matter of someone's personal opinions or ideals.

So far I've only come up with two possibly valid reasons. One is the issue of royalties to the Japanese VAs... and I'm not even sure that is an issue since, the last time I heard, most VAs were paid by commission. The second is traditional company policy, which is an issue that actually seems to exist... though it is one that isn't relevant to the consumer.

As for the other extremist side, the primary argument, that there is no need for English VAs, is equally specious as there are millions of poor souls out there that are incapable of comprehending the flow of a scene from text (this is why VAs came into such frequent use in rpgs in the first place) and vocal tones in another language. While it can be argued that this is a personal issue, it is also a practical one, as if you can't reach your target audience, it kind of defeats the point of releasing the game in the first place.

ALL of the rest of this issue is a matter of personal aesthetics that can't be resolved by battering each other with language and rhetoric (god, both sides are almost as bad as an organized religion). I really do hope that someone locks this thread now, as this argument has gone on way too long and the temptation to keep posting here is like that of a recovering addict being presented with a syringe of his drug of choice on a silver platter.

(As a final side-note, there are a number of games that I prefer in English, even though my general preference is for Japanese voices. Lunar: Silver Star, Digital Devil Saga, and... actually mostly Atlus titles now that I think about it. Hurray for Atlus. heh...)

i agree with the two of you in complete understanding, in my last post i had been saying how if it's possible to have a language option then both english purest (normals - i call them that because that's most likely hat they think they are) and japanese purest. so where's the problem. but the "normals" don't even like that.
i recently checked with a friend to see if english to japanese games have english audio. because if so then the statement the normals were saying about "if you understand english then you should only play a game in english" should go with english to japanese games too as well as some japanese games like bio-hazard/resident evil and folk soul/folklore.

and the things i meant about how vocals sometimes don't match is the tone. the tone of the vocals sometimes don't match. i said nothing about the translations and the lines.

for example: a english vocal robot sounds mono-toned where a japanese sounding robot sounds.. D C E F. if you know music you will understand that i mean that the tone of the voice will start low toned like around a D or a C note and end with an E or F note. sometimes it'll stick to the E or F notes though and that's fine compared to the english robot vocal in the robotic digital C or D note sometimes even G note. when it's that low it sounds annoying when it repeats (much like this thread - problem is i am an OCD need my fix addict. i honestly couldn't sleep because i was thinking of what to say as a response.)

[Hitoshura]

Some people like dual audio. It's not an either or option, especially for games on bluray.

If it's physically possible, then why not? From a business stand point is pretty dumb to not offer something a customer wants especially if the demand is not that demanding.

All this argument about the merits of sub vs dub is retarded. It's a preference and just leave it as that. You might as well go around ice cream parlours telling people it's "wrong" to prefer vanilla over chocolate.

The problem with that is that usually people at least give Vanilla or Chocolate a fair chance before dismissing it. That is not the case with such "purists". How can you know you like the Japanese better if you haven't even given the English a fair chance?

Allright, how's this. I do not consider this to be an opinion or an ideal, just common sense. These companies pay their employees to localize a game. They pay their scriptwriters, their voice directors, etc., and in turn pay the voice actors. These people give it their all because it's a job they love doing (why else would you be a voice actor? Or work in the localization industry when you hate it). They may choose to not include dual audio to force people to at least TRY and pay attention to their work, and perhaps open new doors for them. Who wants to have their work shunned without even a first glance, much less a second, just because people "prefer to hear in a language they do not understand" and refuse to even try to listen to the English? Now, I may not be speaking out of personal experience, but if I was a voice actor and I overheard someone talking about how they didn't even bother to try the English, and the Japanese was just soooooooooo much better (without even knowing if it actually was), I would personally be offended. It would upset me greatly to see that my hard work was wasted on even one person, which I know is inevitable, but to see that for yourself... I could not imagine would be a very enjoyable experience.

tl;dr dual audio is not necessary because then people don't even bother to try and appreciate these people's hard work, that was made specifically for them, the people who speak ENGLISH and not JAPANESE.

[Mugi]

how about this then:

im not an english speaker nor am i a japanese speaker, so neither of the dubs are something i can just understand perfectly out of the blue.
i can understand english enough to play a game, and japanese enough to somewhat play a game (per voices, not subs).

i've given a chance to pretty much every game with english voices, and then came to a conclusion that they are by far not as good as the
original voices, as they were meant to be by the devs who originally created the game and planned all the stuff said and written on it.

it's not that the english voices suck by default, they don't (well, they do on some cases, but nowadays it's getting better) it's just that no matter
how good voiceactors you have to voice your translated and revised script, i want my games the way they were before it got modified by the localizing
company. they can say whatever they want and im sure they do their best to improve and revise stuff, but that's beside the point, i want my games as they
were, not as the localizers decided that it's better and call people jerks who disagree (see page 1 of this thread)

i gave persona3 a chance, and i gave persona4 a chance and no matter how the voiceacting was, the game takes place in japan damnit, why the hell everyone
speaks english, it's not only illogical, but it also pissed off a lot of fans. As said, i gave it a fair chance, before i realized that im not gonna deal with that since
it feel just wrong, so i ended up cancelling my orders on the games and got the hacked versions instead. I bought copies later when they were available second
hand and cheap enough to be bearable from half a game. I'd rather see dual audios or just jpn audio versions.
I wouldn't mind putting an extra 5$ to the price of a special edition that comes with the japanese voices.

well, just my opinions anyway :P

have a nice day Atlus 'n Co.

[SickleCellAnemia]

You might as well go around ice cream parlours telling people it's "wrong" to prefer vanilla over chocolate.
STRAWBERRY OR GTFO!!!

[Hitoshura]

how about this then:

im not an english speaker nor am i a japanese speaker, so neither of the dubs are something i can just understand perfectly out of the blue.
i can understand english enough to play a game, and japanese enough to somewhat play a game (per voices, not subs).

i've given a chance to pretty much every game with english voices, and then came to a conclusion that they are by far not as good as the
original voices, as they were meant to be by the devs who originally created the game and planned all the stuff said and written on it.

it's not that the english voices suck by default, they don't (well, they do on some cases, but nowadays it's getting better) it's just that no matter
how good voiceactors you have to voice your translated and revised script, i want my games the way they were before it got modified by the localizing
company. they can say whatever they want and im sure they do their best to improve and revise stuff, but that's beside the point, i want my games as they
were, not as the localizers decided that it's better and call people jerks who disagree (see page 1 of this thread)

i gave persona3 a chance, and i gave persona4 a chance and no matter how the voiceacting was, the game takes place in japan damnit, why the hell everyone
speaks english, it's not only illogical, but it also pissed off a lot of fans. As said, i gave it a fair chance, before i realized that im not gonna deal with that since
it feel just wrong, so i ended up cancelling my orders on the games and got the hacked versions instead. I bought copies later when they were available second
hand and cheap enough to be bearable from half a game. I'd rather see dual audios or just jpn audio versions.
I wouldn't mind putting an extra 5$ to the price of a special edition that comes with the japanese voices.

well, just my opinions anyway :P

have a nice day Atlus 'n Co.

So tl;dr you're a purist, and you're going to be illogically biased towards Japanese voices no matter what.

Why are they speaking english in Japan? Because you're playing the English version of the game. Localized for people who speak and listen to English. Not Japanese.

[Clephas]

how about this then:

im not an english speaker nor am i a japanese speaker, so neither of the dubs are something i can just understand perfectly out of the blue.
i can understand english enough to play a game, and japanese enough to somewhat play a game (per voices, not subs).

i've given a chance to pretty much every game with english voices, and then came to a conclusion that they are by far not as good as the
original voices, as they were meant to be by the devs who originally created the game and planned all the stuff said and written on it.

it's not that the english voices suck by default, they don't (well, they do on some cases, but nowadays it's getting better) it's just that no matter
how good voiceactors you have to voice your translated and revised script, i want my games the way they were before it got modified by the localizing
company. they can say whatever they want and im sure they do their best to improve and revise stuff, but that's beside the point, i want my games as they
were, not as the localizers decided that it's better and call people jerks who disagree (see page 1 of this thread)

i gave persona3 a chance, and i gave persona4 a chance and no matter how the voiceacting was, the game takes place in japan damnit, why the hell everyone
speaks english, it's not only illogical, but it also pissed off a lot of fans. As said, i gave it a fair chance, before i realized that im not gonna deal with that since
it feel just wrong, so i ended up cancelling my orders on the games and got the hacked versions instead. I bought copies later when they were available second
hand and cheap enough to be bearable from half a game. I'd rather see dual audios or just jpn audio versions.
I wouldn't mind putting an extra 5$ to the price of a special edition that comes with the japanese voices.

well, just my opinions anyway :P

have a nice day Atlus 'n Co.

So tl;dr you're a purist, and you're going to be illogically biased towards Japanese voices no matter what.

Why are they speaking english in Japan? Because you're playing the English version of the game. Localized for people who speak and listen to English. Not Japanese.

I actually don't see how you are any different. You are just at the other extreme. (actually, you are a few levels above him because you actually understand grammar and punctuation)

Also, it ultimately doesn't matter what efforts are put out by the company. Its still a matter of opinions and personal preference.

[Hitoshura]

Nope, I do a little thing called "looking at things objectively".

And "it ultimately doesn't matter what efforts are put out by the company"?

You are worthless.

[Sheky]

The problem with that is that usually people at least give Vanilla or Chocolate a fair chance before dismissing it. That is not the case with such "purists". How can you know you like the Japanese better if you haven't even given the English a fair chance?

Allright, how's this. I do not consider this to be an opinion or an ideal, just common sense. These companies pay their employees to localize a game. They pay their scriptwriters, their voice directors, etc., and in turn pay the voice actors. These people give it their all because it's a job they love doing (why else would you be a voice actor? Or work in the localization industry when you hate it). They may choose to not include dual audio to force people to at least TRY and pay attention to their work, and perhaps open new doors for them. Who wants to have their work shunned without even a first glance, much less a second, just because people "prefer to hear in a language they do not understand" and refuse to even try to listen to the English? Now, I may not be speaking out of personal experience, but if I was a voice actor and I overheard someone talking about how they didn't even bother to try the English, and the Japanese was just soooooooooo much better (without even knowing if it actually was), I would personally be offended. It would upset me greatly to see that my hard work was wasted on even one person, which I know is inevitable, but to see that for yourself... I could not imagine would be a very enjoyable experience.

tl;dr dual audio is not necessary because then people don't even bother to try and appreciate these people's hard work, that was made specifically for them, the people who speak ENGLISH and not JAPANESE.

Err...but how are people suppose to try both if there's no dual audio?

I like dual audio. It makes the game different when I replay it and pick a different track. In this day and age there's really no excuse not to have both. Choice is wonderful thing.

[Hitoshura]

I never said for people to try both, IIRC. I am also not implying that anyone should shun the Japanese dubbing without trying it. I'm saying that, given the OPTION to listen to the Japanese voices, most purists (which seem to be roughly 80% of anime/JRPG fans) won't even bother to give the English a shot, which is just bull####. The only way around this? Don't include dual audio.

People like their work to not go to waste.

[nicholai441]

So tl;dr you're a purist, and you're going to be illogically biased towards Japanese voices no matter what.

Why are they speaking english in Japan? Because you're playing the English version of the game. Localized for people who speak and listen to English. Not Japanese.

here's a question for you, what do you think about games that have a language option but the language selections are duetch, french, italian, german, etc.?
there are quite a bit of games made in the US that have those language options. but chances are no one will listen to them.

or maybe this: since a fraction of japan doesn't speak english, should games like bio-hazard/resident evil, folks soul/folklore and any other japan made game that uses english as the original language, should they have been made with japanese audio instead of english?

[Hitoshura]

I think those games should be enjoyed in the language that you understand best and thus has the maximum potential for enjoyment.

Folklore? Yes. Resident Evil? Maybe, the cheesiness and sometimes bad acting is kind of lost on the Japanese, in the same way that cheesiness and bad acting is often lost on silly purists who don't fully comprehend what they're listening to.

[DamageCity]

the cheesiness and sometimes bad acting is kind of lost on the Japanese, in the same way that cheesiness and bad acting is often lost on silly purists who don't fully comprehend what they're listening to.

I couldn't agree more.

[Mugi]

so, i tried both voices and preferred the jpn ones and that makes me a purist ?

so yeah, i guess i shouldn't have posted as i planned to :P
it's pointless to argue with people like you, Have you even tried both yourself ?

Thought so, unlike you i actually own both versions of the game and i played both of them and based my preference on what i saw and heard in the game.

and like i said, im not a native english speaker so there's no need to be an ass about my typing just because you happen to disagree with me on the topic of conversation.

[Olethros]

the cheesiness and sometimes bad acting is kind of lost on the Japanese, in the same way that cheesiness and bad acting is often lost on silly purists who don't fully comprehend what they're listening to.

I couldn't agree more.

I concur as well. I've made the same arguments (or at least similar ones) that Hito is making with about as much success before.

Also, on a somewhat different tack from the one at hand, why do people who so strongly prefer Japanese VA still insist on buying the English localized version and then come to the US forums to debate it? It's not exactly the most logical course of action to take.

[Clephas]

the cheesiness and sometimes bad acting is kind of lost on the Japanese, in the same way that cheesiness and bad acting is often lost on silly purists who don't fully comprehend what they're listening to.

I couldn't agree more.

I concur as well. I've made the same arguments (or at least similar ones) that Hito is making with about as much success before.

Also, on a somewhat different tack from the one at hand, why do people who so strongly prefer Japanese VA still insist on buying the English localized version and then come to the US forums to debate it? It's not exactly the most logical course of action to take.

Because reading Japanese is significantly harder than hearing and comprehending it? But seriously, you guys are just as much a group of purists as the ones who always choose the Japanese voices. Just admit it and get off your high horses. And I'll restate it but the efforts of the company are only relevant in how they present something aesthetically pleasing to the consumer, not in how much effort went into it.

[nicholai441]

the cheesiness and sometimes bad acting is kind of lost on the Japanese, in the same way that cheesiness and bad acting is often lost on silly purists who don't fully comprehend what they're listening to.

I couldn't agree more.

I concur as well. I've made the same arguments (or at least similar ones) that Hito is making with about as much success before.

Also, on a somewhat different tack from the one at hand, why do people who so strongly prefer Japanese VA still insist on buying the English localized version and then come to the US forums to debate it? It's not exactly the most logical course of action to take.

buying a game in it's translated form is cheaper then buying it imported. and not all games are universal the 360 for one has very limited amount of universal games.
so in other words, if i wanted to play a game in it's import/japanese form, i would have to get an imported or hacked system (which could cost anywhere between $300 - $800) then get the game i want imported which could cost around $40 - $200 (or more).

so all in all, it's cheaper to just request for dual language audio on forums such as these. and of course there is also the want of translated text.

I think those games should be enjoyed in the language that you understand best and thus has the maximum potential for enjoyment.

Folklore? Yes. Resident Evil? Maybe, the cheesiness and sometimes bad acting is kind of lost on the Japanese, in the same way that cheesiness and bad acting is often lost on silly purists who don't fully comprehend what they're listening to.

resident evil maybe?
wow that seems a bit extreme for you, a person who seems to want vocals of a game to only be to it's local area (US = only english, japan = only japanese).

also you didn't answer my other question. what about US games that have a language option of spanish, french, italian, dutch, etc. ?
do you think their(game companies that do that) wasting their time and money by doing that? i know more people who speak little or full japanese more then i know people who speak spanish, french, italian, and dutch.

[hickwarrior]

@Clephas

Are you accusing them of preferring the english voice track? Maybe i should look up where they said that they did... Besides, I do agree with them. It's narrowminded to only prefer the japanese voice track, just because. Or maybe I took that the wrong way.

[nicholai441]

@Clephas

Are you accusing them of preferring the english voice track? Maybe i should look up where they said that they did... Besides, I do agree with them. It's narrowminded to only prefer the japanese voice track, just because. Or maybe I took that the wrong way.

it's not just the japanese voice tracks it's the point of just having a language option in a game that they don't like.

i'd like to bring up another point.
there are japanese game that have language options (that feature english)
tenchu 3, ace combat 5(the official japanese site for this game even has samples of the english and japanese vocals), rumble roses. just to name the ones that i know and/or heard of having a language option.

[Kesseki]

I don't see why this is such a drawn out discussion. If there's space for it, Atlus tries to include JP voices. If not, since English is the primary language of the country(ies) they're localizing for, that should take precedence. If the dub is that bad chances are someone will make an undub (even if it's not bad at all people still make undubs), and usually you can turn voices off.

I'm actually kind of annoyed when there's only JP voices, like Xseed or whoever is doing with Muramasa for the Wii. They essentially said there was nothing keeping them from doing a dub, they just didn't feel like it. Just do away with voices in rpgs all together! :p

[nicholai441]

that's what sega sort of did with shining tears.
in the japanese version there are vocals during the story text part of the game.
but when sega localized it, they only dubbed the battles and left the story text voice less.

even though this is the same topic. it's become different conversations of the same thing.
it went from how someone was requesting japanese vocals in atlus games, to how some people like the japanese vocals and would prefer that some games were just the japanese vocals, while other liked the dual audio, to where some people think localized games should have only english vocals - "no exceptions!".
which then turned it into a debate (insult war for some) on how with dual audio everyone can be happy and listen to a game the way they want, but the ones who say "no exception" to having ONLY english vocals isn't seeing it that way.
so now.. atleast for me, i turned it to "look at the other countries and other games that have language options, they have language options so why shouldn't we?"

so even though the topic remains the same, the conversation is different.
at this point the topic is: "language options, have them or no"

[slayn]

I support no vocals. Devil Summoner was the best because I didn't have to listen to a voice actor who will never be as awesome as my imagination.

Text-only please!

[Hitoshura]

so, i tried both voices and preferred the jpn ones and that makes me a purist ?

so yeah, i guess i shouldn't have posted as i planned to :P
it's pointless to argue with people like you, Have you even tried both yourself ?

Thought so, unlike you i actually own both versions of the game and i played both of them and based my preference on what i saw and heard in the game.

and like i said, im not a native english speaker so there's no need to be an ass about my typing just because you happen to disagree with me on the topic of conversation.

??????????

Anyways, yes, I frequently try both the dubs and subs of both anime and games if available. Like I said, I look at things objectively. Unless the English acting really is godawful, it is completely illogical to prefer the Japanese. Why is it better? You can't understand it. You can't really feel the acting, you can only pretend to. Stop deluding yourselves. Give the English a chance, and who knows, you might enjoy it even better than the Japanese. A good example is Dragon Half. You can't understand Damaramu's acting in Japanese (possibly a good example of cheesiness and bad acting being lost on non-Japanese speakers), but since you can in English, it enhances the experience and makes him an even more hilarious character.

[slayn]

In my head, Raidou sounds like Kurt Russell. So unless Atlus is going to start hiring Hollywood celebrities, I reiterate my text-only suggestion.

[Olethros]

^ Agreed. Text only would be my first choice as well. If the voices are a done deal, however, they better damn well be in English or I have no interest.

[hickwarrior]

^ What about gibberish?

Anyway, I don't prefer spoken text over text without vocals, or the other way around. If it's spoken, then all I'd have to do is listen to what they are saying. Which might be more practical, but that depends if it's noisy around you, while you are playing the game. The only thing that would deter me is god-awful voice-acting, although I haven't heard voice-acting from alot of different sources in english. I just think I'm in-experienced judging voice-acting, although I can point out horrid voice-acting.

Text is just text. don't have any problem with that. I don't mind reading as long as it stays interesting. Or I'll just read it just because.

Well, that was me ranting a bit. Sorry if it seems incoherent and as if I forgot to say something like in my previous post in this thread...

[Clephas]

Most of my favorite games didn't even have voice acting. Or, if they did it was really crappy English. Though, that's because most of my favorite games are from the PSX/Saturn era or the early ps2 era. I honestly don't think that rpgs were improved by the introduction of voice-acting to the mix, but it did open them to a wider variety of people... the virtually illiterate crowd.

If I had to pick aspects that make a game more compelling for me, as often as not it is a well-coordinated BGM that helps enhance the mood for scenes and well-written dialogue that draws you into the story. That's on a micro level, however. On the macro level for me, its all plot.

The introduction of voice-acting has slammed a lot of the aspects that made older games great into the trunk and broken the lock. Just like the elimination of overworld maps in rpgs, voice-acting is one of the major poisons of the genre.

Ah, that felt good.

[slayn]

^ What about gibberish?

Is there really any difference between this and a Japanese language track, at least for most gamers?

[SickleCellAnemia]

^ What about gibberish?

How about Pig Latin, or Old Guy speak? The second would only appeal to Olethros though...

"You whippersnappers! Back in my day.....zzzzzzz...."

[Onion of Mystery]

^ What about gibberish?

Is there really any difference between this and a Japanese language track, at least for most gamers?

When I laugh at the Sims for their goofy-sounding language, I'm having fun. When I laugh at Godzilla movies for their goofy-sounding language, I'm a racist. ;)

[slayn]

When I laugh at the Sims for their goofy-sounding language, I'm having fun. When I laugh at Godzilla movies for their goofy-sounding language, I'm a racist. ;)

I didn't mean to imply that it was goofy-sounding. But as someone that doesn't speak Japanese, it sounds like gibberish to me. So does any other foreign language. I don't think there's anything inherently racist about that, and I certainly don't mean to add any such undertones.

[nicholai441]

When I laugh at the Sims for their goofy-sounding language, I'm having fun. When I laugh at Godzilla movies for their goofy-sounding language, I'm a racist. ;)

I didn't mean to imply that it was goofy-sounding. But as someone that doesn't speak Japanese, it sounds like gibberish to me. So does any other foreign language. I don't think there's anything inherently racist about that, and I certainly don't mean to add any such undertones.

so we can all agree that no vocals is a very good thing and is a good want.

as for japanese vocals (and other languages for the matter), i am remembering the movie/book the 13th warrior (never paid too much attention to the story). but there is a part where the main character doesn't understand the language of the people he's with. so he listens to their conversations with each other and eventually picks up on the language.

in a way, listening to japanese vocals is like that (just that with games and anime we have subtitles that roughly translate what's being said) we can sort of learn the language. it won't be as good as learning the language via years of school, but it's a start. eventually we'd be able to understand a few words and get a semi-idea of what's being said.

[Reduction]

IDK, doesn't matter if it's japanese vocal with english dub, or totally japan, or totally english vocal & dub... all that matter is, I could understand the story inside a game... that's the importance

[Olethros]

^ What about gibberish?

How about Pig Latin, or Old Guy speak? The second would only appeal to Olethros though...

"You whippersnappers! Back in my day.....zzzzzzz...."

Arrgghh. Damned little punks! You should show more repect for your elders.....and stay the hell off my lawn....and.... ZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Hitoshura]

When I laugh at the Sims for their goofy-sounding language, I'm having fun. When I laugh at Godzilla movies for their goofy-sounding language, I'm a racist. ;)

I didn't mean to imply that it was goofy-sounding. But as someone that doesn't speak Japanese, it sounds like gibberish to me. So does any other foreign language. I don't think there's anything inherently racist about that, and I certainly don't mean to add any such undertones.

so we can all agree that no vocals is a very good thing and is a good want.

as for japanese vocals (and other languages for the matter), i am remembering the movie/book the 13th warrior (never paid too much attention to the story). but there is a part where the main character doesn't understand the language of the people he's with. so he listens to their conversations with each other and eventually picks up on the language.

in a way, listening to japanese vocals is like that (just that with games and anime we have subtitles that roughly translate what's being said) we can sort of learn the language. it won't be as good as learning the language via years of school, but it's a start. eventually we'd be able to understand a few words and get a semi-idea of what's being said.

All anyone learns from watching anime/playing games is how to toss in random words like "sugoi" and "kawaii" and "desu" into their normal conversations, which just doesn't work and is pretty silly.

Learning bits of a language from people in person speaking every day, being surrounded by the language, is quite a bit different than just picking some silly words out of anime that you just watch every once in awhile. It also has a chance to turn you into a vocabulary-based speaker, instead of focusing on what's more important: grammar.

[PFV]

All anyone learns from watching anime/playing games is how to toss in random words like "sugoi" and "kawaii" and "desu" into their normal conversations, which just doesn't work and is pretty silly.

you so baka, hito-chan~ <3

[nicholai441]

When I laugh at the Sims for their goofy-sounding language, I'm having fun. When I laugh at Godzilla movies for their goofy-sounding language, I'm a racist. ;)

I didn't mean to imply that it was goofy-sounding. But as someone that doesn't speak Japanese, it sounds like gibberish to me. So does any other foreign language. I don't think there's anything inherently racist about that, and I certainly don't mean to add any such undertones.

so we can all agree that no vocals is a very good thing and is a good want.

as for japanese vocals (and other languages for the matter), i am remembering the movie/book the 13th warrior (never paid too much attention to the story). but there is a part where the main character doesn't understand the language of the people he's with. so he listens to their conversations with each other and eventually picks up on the language.

in a way, listening to japanese vocals is like that (just that with games and anime we have subtitles that roughly translate what's being said) we can sort of learn the language. it won't be as good as learning the language via years of school, but it's a start. eventually we'd be able to understand a few words and get a semi-idea of what's being said.

All anyone learns from watching anime/playing games is how to toss in random words like "sugoi" and "kawaii" and "desu" into their normal conversations, which just doesn't work and is pretty silly.

Learning bits of a language from people in person speaking every day, being surrounded by the language, is quite a bit different than just picking some silly words out of anime that you just watch every once in awhile. It also has a chance to turn you into a vocabulary-based speaker, instead of focusing on what's more important: grammar.

i said it's a start, i didn't say they'd be able to pick up the language 100%.
it's a way to familiarize ones self with the language and spark an interest in learning it.

sharpening the interest and the ability to speak it is where going to school to learn it, and being around others with the same interest in it (and willing to learn it) come it.

the anime and the games can also help in learning how to pronounce some words.
it's how i got my interest in the japanese language. granted i don't speak it good enough to hold a conversation, but i did take one semester of japanese and passed. also with the japanese language in games and anime, i can use what i learned to pick up on parts of the conversations in the game or anime and have a fair idea of what's going on and at times find out the names of characters. which then goes in to familiarizing myself with the kanji and getting an idea of what is being written.
long time ago i figured out the kanji for load, save, yes, no, saving, and a few others like that.
i can't write it yet but it's like when i person learns to read, they don't know how to spell "pandemonium" right away after they read it (unless they have a good memory) it takes time to learn.

same goes with speaking the language. i personally don't know anyone who was able to say... "peter piper picked a pair of peppers" (or something like that) really well when they started speaking english. the point is the interest is there, and games can help with the learning if japanese vocals were OPTIONAL in games.

[Soushi_Grapple]

In my experience the imports are actually cheaper than the releases here (maybe after elapsed time, never wanted an import at release), as far as RPGs go, unless it was edited heavily here or not released here at all.

I love having the V/A in games, but I enjoy hearing the US voice actors, especially if its someone I enjoy listening to and recognize (Vic Mignona, David Lodge come to mind as far as Persona goes.. really my fav V/A is Michael McConnohie -- s/p?) speficially.. I'd say Yuri Lowenthall but hes in freakin' everything).

The only downside to V/As in games is that its brought in, as someone said, a bunch of illiterate players. RPGs used to be full of mostly sophisticated people, but the fans are kinda... retarded now. It's constantly like "omg yaoi becuz teh [insert 2 male characters that are rivals here] are awesome!!11" (no offense to yaoi) when it used to be "so and so character is deep". I guess it doesn't help that RPGs went more mainstream and now JRPGs have a bad rap because they fell into cliche molds and even big companies are starting to suck (Looking at you SE).

I don't even know what my original thought was anymore... @.x

[Hitoshura]

I was not saying that you were implying that they could completely learn the language from anime and games. Please do not imply such. What I did attempt to claim was that the small amount you might learn from anime/games is so insignificant you might as well just try and learn from something... y'know, designed to learn from. If the interest is there, it sure as hell isn't going to be caused just from anime and games. The interest usually is there anyway; the problem is the means. Most high schools teach French, Spanish, and German, very few actually teach more obscure languages like Japanese. I went to one of the biggest high schools in our state, and even then, there were no Japanese courses offerered.

And ugh, no. Learning pronunciation from anime/games is a surefire way to start some extremely bad habits. It is a strange language to pronounce; on this, I do speak from experience. You need a teacher for pronunciation, something to take you through it slowly and drill it into your head, and that teacher does not need to be anime or games.

Also, most games do not use kanji to write things like "Load", "Save", "Yes", and "No", so you have me highly doubting that you know what you're talking about... those things are usually written in kana.

[iammako3]

If the interest is there, it sure as hell isn't going to be caused just from anime and games.

This. . . is not true. My interest in learning Japanese started exactly with anime and games. After watching and playing plenty of Japanese media, I then became more interested in Japan and it's culture (enough so to make Japanese studies my minor in college), but it all started with anime and games.

[Hitoshura]

If the interest is there, it sure as hell isn't going to be caused just from anime and games.

This. . . is not true. My interest in learning Japanese started exactly with anime and games. After watching and playing plenty of Japanese media, I then became more interested in Japan and it's culture (enough so to make Japanese studies my minor in college), but it all started with anime and games.

Then I daresay that you knew nothing of Japan before experiencing anime and games.

[Kakizaki]

In my experience the imports are actually cheaper than the releases here (maybe after elapsed time, never wanted an import at release), as far as RPGs go, unless it was edited heavily here or not released here at all.

Say what???

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this.

[Soushi_Grapple]

Maybe I just don't want popular games? XD I dunno, it is after an elapsed time, and usually the imports are $20 cheaper on Ebay than a new copy of the stateside release. -shrug-

[Clephas]

Hitoshura is right... if you don't have the grammar down beforehand, as well as a decent understanding of keigo - the formal language - learning from anime will seriously mess up your pronunciation. About all anime is good for is adding to your vocabulary, learning contextual changes, and gaining a limited understanding of differences in dialect. Also, if you don't have a firm understanding from the beginning that a lot of anime language is extremely rude or crass, you could run into serious problems in conversing.

[iammako3]

If the interest is there, it sure as hell isn't going to be caused just from anime and games.

This. . . is not true. My interest in learning Japanese started exactly with anime and games. After watching and playing plenty of Japanese media, I then became more interested in Japan and it's culture (enough so to make Japanese studies my minor in college), but it all started with anime and games.

Then I daresay that you knew nothing of Japan before experiencing anime and games.

I watched "Big Bird in Japan" a lot, but that was about it. :-) But your point was that people won't get into Japanese culture and language just by watching anime and playing games. Half the students in my Japanese classes wanted to learn Japanese because they liked anime.

[Kakizaki]

Maybe I just don't want popular games? XD I dunno, it is after an elapsed time, and usually the imports are $20 cheaper on Ebay than a new copy of the stateside release. -shrug-

Yeah, because either they are used or Best of rereleases.

Games get cheaper here after an 'elapsed' time as well.

[Hitoshura]

If the interest is there, it sure as hell isn't going to be caused just from anime and games.

This. . . is not true. My interest in learning Japanese started exactly with anime and games. After watching and playing plenty of Japanese media, I then became more interested in Japan and it's culture (enough so to make Japanese studies my minor in college), but it all started with anime and games.

Then I daresay that you knew nothing of Japan before experiencing anime and games.

I watched "Big Bird in Japan" a lot, but that was about it. :-) But your point was that people won't get into Japanese culture and language just by watching anime and playing games. Half the students in my Japanese classes wanted to learn Japanese because they liked anime.

Then my faith in humanity is lost.