Give us Japanese Languages!

[Clephas]

If the interest is there, it sure as hell isn't going to be caused just from anime and games.

This. . . is not true. My interest in learning Japanese started exactly with anime and games. After watching and playing plenty of Japanese media, I then became more interested in Japan and it's culture (enough so to make Japanese studies my minor in college), but it all started with anime and games.

Then I daresay that you knew nothing of Japan before experiencing anime and games.

I watched "Big Bird in Japan" a lot, but that was about it. :-) But your point was that people won't get into Japanese culture and language just by watching anime and playing games. Half the students in my Japanese classes wanted to learn Japanese because they liked anime.

Then my faith in humanity is lost.

Actually, that's fairly normal. Most people - in America at least - get an interest in the Japanese language first from either playing Japanese games, reading manga, or watching anime. At least, in the younger generation.

As for whether you'll get Japanese culture just from watching anime or playing their video games... yeah, you are right. While their entertainment media in general gives you a limited window into a certain demographic of their modern culture, it isn't enough to tell you how the people think.

This is a concept that it took me years to fully comprehend, as I picked up the frameworks of several languages and shoved them into my brain, but with a language comes the building blocks of the way of thinking attached to that language. I had to completely internalize (meaning being able to think in the language as naturally as I do English) spoken Japanese before I began to really comprehend just how large the gap in the thinking processes between two cultures can be.

While anime does provide insight into parts of Japanese life and culture, it does so in an idealized and choreographed form, thus limiting any understanding you might gain simply by reading the subtitles and watching it.

[Hitoshura]

I guess I've just been around too many people who either had an interest to begin with or developed an interest through cultural development. I find that most people I know who are interested in Japan from anime and games really just have a very half-hearted, non-serious and non-committed interest in the culture and language. Sure, they pick up a few words here and there, but that's about the extent of it.

[Clephas]

That's generally the way it is. I mean, how many young people seriously try to learn another language? I haven't met that many. And in any case, without a period of total immersion it isn't really possible to completely master any language in the first place... and most people aren't going to understand the need to discard their native language entirely for a good three months in order to make that effort.

[nicholai441]

I was not saying that you were implying that they could completely learn the language from anime and games. Please do not imply such. What I did attempt to claim was that the small amount you might learn from anime/games is so insignificant you might as well just try and learn from something... y'know, designed to learn from. If the interest is there, it sure as hell isn't going to be caused just from anime and games. The interest usually is there anyway; the problem is the means. Most high schools teach French, Spanish, and German, very few actually teach more obscure languages like Japanese. I went to one of the biggest high schools in our state, and even then, there were no Japanese courses offerered.

And ugh, no. Learning pronunciation from anime/games is a surefire way to start some extremely bad habits. It is a strange language to pronounce; on this, I do speak from experience. You need a teacher for pronunciation, something to take you through it slowly and drill it into your head, and that teacher does not need to be anime or games.

Also, most games do not use kanji to write things like "Load", "Save", "Yes", and "No", so you have me highly doubting that you know what you're talking about... those things are usually written in kana.


okay, so i haven't learned what kanji and kana is by name, but i have become familiar with the symbols to recognize certain ones. and figure out what's going on.
if i didn't i wouldn't have been been able to finish alot of the japanese games i have. like: shining wind, sakura taisen DS, zoids saga DS, SRW scramble commander 2nd (games that done require you to know some of the words but helps so that your not stuck at the beginning).

also with so many things to do and not very much time to do them, i can't dedicate myself to one thing, i'm pretty much a jack of all trades.
so i have a general idea on things but i don't specialize myself in them because there's too many things to take interest in. anime for instance, i've never seen half the animes out there, i don't have bookshelves full of manga. because i don't have the time or money to do such things.
with a game series i don't collect every game to the series and try to collect every little thing out there for it. some of it just doesn't appeal to me and i don't have the time or money for it.

besides what is so wrong with having language option, sure many may not know the language, but if you want to be able to compare the tones and voice itself (not the words the pronounciating) the sound that a character makes in both english and japanese (or any other language) what's wrong with that.

here it is: i say for fighting games a language option is good because then you can compare the sound of the voices (not the lines). you can go i like the sound of this character because the voice matches the look (i didn't say the lines).
sometimes the english voice of a character does match the character design, other times not, same can be said for the japanese voices.
but you can compare the voice and say for yourself what works.

that's why i said capcom did a good idea with SFIV because you could choice what characters you want to hear in english or japanese.
so you can play the game with ryu in a japanese voice and ken in a japanese voice or visa versa, or you can hear them both in a english voice or a japanese voice. bottom line is that vocal wise, it depends on the voice you like regardless of if you can understand the character or not. that's partly the reason you have subtitles. so as far as voices go, it's more the tones then the language, find a game with both english and another language, listen to the characters voice during an attack, a hit, or just a reaction to something. the tones sound different in the languages.

a lot of times the US voice of a character will be lower toned then the japanese voice for a character. i think i said that once.
with a US voice it sound like A notes voices main female and young characters, and D or G note sounds for male characters.

then E or F notes for young or female characters in japanese audio and about A or D note for male characters.

[Hamel]

But Hitoshura the fact is that some people that know English do learn Japanese (I did and I will continue with it once I get into college) and want to experience the game/show/whatever in the language they are learning while still understanding the rest of the things so including a dual language option when possible is not a bad thing at all

[Hitoshura]

But Hitoshura the fact is that some people that know English do learn Japanese (I did and I will continue with it once I get into college) and want to experience the game/show/whatever in the language they are learning while still understanding the rest of the things so including a dual language option when possible is not a bad thing at all

A minority does not excuse the majority.

[nicholai441]

A minority does not excuse the majority.

new friend (and not in a good way) :)

[Kamen Advent]

Yes yes yes, the option for the original language dubs is greatly needed. In this day and age when audio compression is much easier and larger media formats are being created it makes no sense to not have both available.

Many people prefer the original performances over dubs as well.

[Hamel]

But Hitoshura the fact is that some people that know English do learn Japanese (I did and I will continue with it once I get into college) and want to experience the game/show/whatever in the language they are learning while still understanding the rest of the things so including a dual language option when possible is not a bad thing at all

A minority does not excuse the majority.

But it still there and you shouldn't disrespect the fact that they want a game with dual audio when possible

[Iris]

I think the keywords here, though, are when possible. There are sometimes technical issues, changes of timing and the like, that mean sometimes it's more complicated than simply toggling from one audio track to another.

And in those cases, if it's going to require a significant amount of extra work to implement dual audio, I don't think companies can really be blamed for choosing to disappoint a minority of buyers in order to reduce the time and effort expended.

[Hitoshura]

But Hitoshura the fact is that some people that know English do learn Japanese (I did and I will continue with it once I get into college) and want to experience the game/show/whatever in the language they are learning while still understanding the rest of the things so including a dual language option when possible is not a bad thing at all

A minority does not excuse the majority.

But it still there and you shouldn't disrespect the fact that they want a game with dual audio when possible

Yes, I should. I've already given my reasons, I need not give them once more.

They shouldn't disrespect the fact that English dubs are usually good these days and deserve to be appreciated.

[Superkenon]

That's still a matter of opinion, though I agree that recent dubs are increasingly excellent. Even so, there's nothing wrong with desiring a dual audio option... and it really doesn't make sense to belittle those who want the healthy middle solution that satisfies everyone - and indeed, when dual audio is possible, there are only winners.

[nicholai441]

[QUOTE=iammako3;129747]
Then my faith in humanity is lost.

my faith in humanity was lost 24 years ago.



A minority does not excuse the majority.

you are absolutely right, that is why the world (speaking in majority wise) wishes us americans would die a horrible death. because we're all (the majority) self-rightous, arrogant, people (in place a word that starts with a ba) that only wants for themselves.

that because of our god complex, it should be alright for north korea and other countries to aim nuclear weapons at us.

because all in all the world is just too sick to continue living. because as you said: "A minority does not excuse the majority."

it's also why you shouldn't treat others with the same respect you want, because everyone will just let you down, so you(as in everyone) should just live isolated, lonely lives so that everyone won't let you down. no matter what we do everyone will just let us down. so we can't rely on others to help us. even if there are those few faithful people who won't let us down, as you said: "A minority does not excuse the majority."

so let's not make friends, and find significant others, because all of that is just BS. what is real is that no one is there for us, and no one matters. we all should just live and die alone.

[Rednusander]

Nicholai441, your post is completely off topic.

Everyone else, let's not continue down this road, or the thread is going to get locked.

[Enzeru]

I'd rather just see this locked now. :\ I'm surprised it hasn't been locked already, actually.

[Olethros]

Isn't asking for a thread to be locked a violation of the Irvine Convention? :surprise:

Back on topic, this will shock absolutely no one but I completely agree with Hito. If people work tirelessly (and I believe that they do) then their hard work should be appreciated. Localization is not as easy as a lot of people seem to believe it is, and if everyone wanted to play things as "originally intended" as someone suggested then there would be a much larger import market. Buy a Japanese game from Japan, listen to it in Japanese and download a script translation from the internet. MOST people don't want that, however, and it's foolish for a company to pander to a minority at the expense of profits even if the minority happens to be very, very, very, very, very vocal.

[Hitoshura]

Oh no, people are debating on the internet, clearly a reason to lock a thread. :/

Thanks Olethros. I really don't see why people think good, hard work should just be thrown to waste in favor of effort and work they only think they can appreciate.

[Hamel]

Oh no, people are debating on the internet, clearly a reason to lock a thread. :/

Thanks Olethros. I really don't see why people think good, hard work should just be thrown to waste in favor of effort and work they only think they can appreciate.

It's not like the Japanese voice actors didn't work hard
and while there are a ton of weabos some can actully understand most (if not all) of the spoken Japanese in a game
If I could import I would but while I understand most spoken Japanese in these kind of games (if you bring me something like Trauma Center I wouldn't) my understanding of Kanji is too low (about 150+- kanjis) and most spoken Japanese is not all so a 100% understanding is preferd

[Superkenon]

Oh no, people are debating on the internet, clearly a reason to lock a thread. :/

Thanks Olethros. I really don't see why people think good, hard work should just be thrown to waste in favor of effort and work they only think they can appreciate.

It's more than an exaggeration to say their hard work is being wasted. You said it yourself, that the demographic who refuses anything but the original audio is a mere minority. No matter what, the new dubs are always going to be appreciated on a more widespread level.

If you want to go there though, I should point out that voices aren't the whole of a translation effort. Just one aspect one of it. With a dual-language option, even the people stubborn enough to only listen to the original japanese track will be drawn in, and therefore more people will appreciate the product and the effort put into it by our localizers. Right? They may not be listening to the new voices, but they still get to enjoy and support the top-notch translation.

[nicholai441]

i'll just say that even though my voicing has been about how including japanese audio in games would be good.

i will say that there are games with dual audio that i enjoy playing in english audio. so i am not supporting japanese audio only.

i enjoyed playing ace combat 5, Devil May Cry 4, Gundam target in sight and at times tenchu 3 and tenchu fatal shadows in english audio, even though they featured a language option.
there maybe more but i can't remember them at the moment.

i'll accept a game regardless of dual audio or not if it appeals to me, but i... prefer a game to have dual audio.

an example of this is the fact that i enjoyed games such as: Xenosaga 1 2 and 3, Drakengard 2, star ocean: last hope, and many others. all of which did not have a language option, but i still played and liked as they were.

[Manly Biceps]

I personally, couldn't play Ace Combat 5 without the option to listen to everything in its native Yuktobanian.

Also, this is just me personally, but a lot of the voices in Star Ocean: TLH were uncomfortably bad. A lot of it had to do with the writing, but a lot of the voice work didn't come out as I'd expect, especially considering that I'm fairly certain I've worked with a few of those folks before.

[nicholai441]

Also, this is just me personally, but a lot of the voices in Star Ocean: TLH were uncomfortably bad. A lot of it had to do with the writing, but a lot of the voice work didn't come out as I'd expect, especially considering that I'm fairly certain I've worked with a few of those folks before.

just responding to you with what someone else said in response to me bringing up SO:TLH earlier(that's not a bad thing is it?):

Nope, the voices in SO4 match just fine. NOT EXACTLY LIKE JAPANESE VOICES =/= voices don't match. Few people stop to think that there might be a REASON Lymle speaks so weirdly, and bother to read her character profile to find out.


i personally thought laura bailey did a good job voicing reimi.
after a time the voices grow on me to where there wasn't to much of a question on what the characters sound like in japanese audio.

but as i stated before, the one thing that gets to me with english vocals is when a character is voiced by one VA in one part of the series then returns only to be voiced by someone else. Xenosaga was like that. i know it doesn't happen only to english vocals. i read that the VA for blanc neige in shining wind is a different person from the VA who played blanc neige in the japanese audio of shining tears.

[slayn]

This thread is like a NASCAR race: we just keep going in circles, never getting anywhere.

[Manly Biceps]

Eh. As the main character in "Thank You For Smoking" points out, the argument is never to convince the other people in the argument that you're correct, it's to sway the minds of the people who aren't in the argument.

[Clephas]

I personally, couldn't play Ace Combat 5 without the option to listen to everything in its native Yuktobanian.

Also, this is just me personally, but a lot of the voices in Star Ocean: TLH were uncomfortably bad. A lot of it had to do with the writing, but a lot of the voice work didn't come out as I'd expect, especially considering that I'm fairly certain I've worked with a few of those folks before.

Welch... ugh.

[Olethros]

Eh. As the main character in "Thank You For Smoking" points out, the argument is never to convince the other people in the argument that you're correct, it's to sway the minds of the people who aren't in the argument.

This exactly. (I still need to see that movie as well). I've stopped trying to convince anyone that actually responds that my point of view is legitimate. I continue on mostly because it often appears that only the minority voice is the one being displayed in situations like this. Like I said earlier, they often are very, very, very, very vocal. I just like to make sure that nobody ever forgets the fact that they still are a minority opinion.

[nicholai441]

i just remembered that some game credits don't include the VA's. i can't think of any at the moment, but i remember looking for the VA list of a game in their credits and their manual and couldn't find it.

as i said i don't remember which games they were exactly, but if i'm a little correct then someone would know some games that didn't have it's VAs credited.

i recently picked up the US release of Dissidia and at first as a game itself it didn't appeal to me, but after exploring it a bit, and checking the VA list (to find Johnny Yong Bosch credited) i decided it might not be such a bad game after all. i would like to get the japanese version to compare the vocal tones (not lines) and the "graphic". but it's not top of my list at the moment.

[Hitoshura]

I personally, couldn't play Ace Combat 5 without the option to listen to everything in its native Yuktobanian.

Also, this is just me personally, but a lot of the voices in Star Ocean: TLH were uncomfortably bad. A lot of it had to do with the writing, but a lot of the voice work didn't come out as I'd expect, especially considering that I'm fairly certain I've worked with a few of those folks before.

Welch... ugh.

Welch is just fine, especially for the type of character she is.

[Pixel]

Also, this is just me personally, but a lot of the voices in Star Ocean: TLH were uncomfortably bad. A lot of it had to do with the writing, but a lot of the voice work didn't come out as I'd expect, especially considering that I'm fairly certain I've worked with a few of those folks before.
I was more distracted by the discrepancy between the motion capture and dub than by the dub alone.

[Zacewing]

Eh, I'm not a huge fan of Dissidia's voice acting. Most of the voices are mediocre at best (though there are some really good ones). Kuja's voice makes me cringe most of the time. :(

And also, sometimes Japanese dubbing with english text doesn't work because sometimes the context is different in each language.

[Clephas]

I personally, couldn't play Ace Combat 5 without the option to listen to everything in its native Yuktobanian.

Also, this is just me personally, but a lot of the voices in Star Ocean: TLH were uncomfortably bad. A lot of it had to do with the writing, but a lot of the voice work didn't come out as I'd expect, especially considering that I'm fairly certain I've worked with a few of those folks before.

Welch... ugh.

Welch is just fine, especially for the type of character she is.

Welch is poison because her voice hurts my ears. I had to mute every scene that involved her because her voice was so much like nails scratching a chalkboard that I wanted to scream.

To be more blunt. It doesn't matter if the voice suits a character if that voice is incredibly annoying.

[nicholai441]

To be more blunt. It doesn't matter if the voice suits a character if that voice is incredibly annoying.

i think alot can say the same for the Haro's english voice in the gundam series.
the japanese voice of the haro sounds fun.

[Hitoshura]

I personally, couldn't play Ace Combat 5 without the option to listen to everything in its native Yuktobanian.

Also, this is just me personally, but a lot of the voices in Star Ocean: TLH were uncomfortably bad. A lot of it had to do with the writing, but a lot of the voice work didn't come out as I'd expect, especially considering that I'm fairly certain I've worked with a few of those folks before.

Welch... ugh.

Welch is just fine, especially for the type of character she is.

Welch is poison because her voice hurts my ears. I had to mute every scene that involved her because her voice was so much like nails scratching a chalkboard that I wanted to scream.

To be more blunt. It doesn't matter if the voice suits a character if that voice is incredibly annoying.

Well, don't be annoyed by annoying characters. Ah, wait...

[Hamel]

To be more blunt. It doesn't matter if the voice suits a character if that voice is incredibly annoying.

i think alot can say the same for the Haro's english voice in the gundam series.
the japanese voice of the haro sounds fun.

Depends
in 00's last episode it wasn't fun (not spoiling)

[Clephas]

I personally, couldn't play Ace Combat 5 without the option to listen to everything in its native Yuktobanian.

Also, this is just me personally, but a lot of the voices in Star Ocean: TLH were uncomfortably bad. A lot of it had to do with the writing, but a lot of the voice work didn't come out as I'd expect, especially considering that I'm fairly certain I've worked with a few of those folks before.

Welch... ugh.

Welch is just fine, especially for the type of character she is.

Welch is poison because her voice hurts my ears. I had to mute every scene that involved her because her voice was so much like nails scratching a chalkboard that I wanted to scream.

To be more blunt. It doesn't matter if the voice suits a character if that voice is incredibly annoying.

Well, don't be annoyed by annoying characters. Ah, wait...

Actually if it comes down to it, voices like Welch's are my biggest complaint about VA's in general. I don't know why the American companies so happily go along with the idea of destroying my eardrums by competing with the Japanese for high-pitched voices. It's one thing to give a character a bubbly personality, but to give them a voice that eats away at your sanity just by hearing it is just wrong. This isn't just an anime or video game problem either... for some reason, in the eighties it became a trend of sorts to give girls squeaky voices, and it has only gotten worse with time.

[Hitoshura]

Well, don't be annoyed by annoying characters. Ah, wait...

[Zacewing]

Fun fact: Welch and Reimi have the same voice actress.

[Hitoshura]

Fun fact: Welch and Reimi have the same voice actress.

Yep! Laura Bailey, and she's insane at what she does. I've been watching the Kodomo no Omocha dub, and they could not have picked anyone better. Hearing her be so hilarious in ENGLISH and being able to understand why it's hilarious sure is fun!

[darkstar2021]

My one complaint in the voice department would have to be Chie. I cant stand her voice for some reason.

[Hamel]

My one complaint in the voice department would have to be Chie. I cant stand her voice for some reason.

What?Chie was great and that's coming from a guy that usually hates dubs

[Yukichin]

My one complaint in the voice department would have to be Chie. I cant stand her voice for some reason.

What?Chie was great and that's coming from a guy that usually hates dubs

It's a matter of opinion, simple as that.

[Superkenon]

Yep! Laura Bailey, and she's insane at what she does. I've been watching the Kodomo no Omocha dub, and they could not have picked anyone better. Hearing her be so hilarious in ENGLISH and being able to understand why it's hilarious sure is fun!

Laura Bailey's one of the good ones for sure, in Kodocha especially. Easily one my favorite of her performances. That whole dub was great, actually. FUNimation's dubs don't always sit right with me, but for whatever reason that one felt like it had a lot more heart put in it. Captured the essence of the original version rather well.

[Clephas]

Yep! Laura Bailey, and she's insane at what she does. I've been watching the Kodomo no Omocha dub, and they could not have picked anyone better. Hearing her be so hilarious in ENGLISH and being able to understand why it's hilarious sure is fun!

Laura Bailey's one of the good ones for sure, in Kodocha especially. Easily one my favorite of her performances. That whole dub was great, actually. FUNimation's dubs don't always sit right with me, but for whatever reason that one felt like it had a lot more heart put in it. Captured the essence of the original version rather well.

The reason Funi doesn't generally sit well with people is that their translations are notorious for being amongst the worst in all the anime business. Because of that, there is always a discrepancy between the actions and reactions of the characters and the spoken dialogue.

[Hitoshura]

Yep! Laura Bailey, and she's insane at what she does. I've been watching the Kodomo no Omocha dub, and they could not have picked anyone better. Hearing her be so hilarious in ENGLISH and being able to understand why it's hilarious sure is fun!

Laura Bailey's one of the good ones for sure, in Kodocha especially. Easily one my favorite of her performances. That whole dub was great, actually. FUNimation's dubs don't always sit right with me, but for whatever reason that one felt like it had a lot more heart put in it. Captured the essence of the original version rather well.

The reason Funi doesn't generally sit well with people is that their translations are notorious for being amongst the worst in all the anime business. Because of that, there is always a discrepancy between the actions and reactions of the characters and the spoken dialogue.

And I ask just who these "people" are that say their translations aren't good. Oh, right, probably biased subtitle fans that saw DBZ, laughed at how it's "I'LL SEND YOU TO ANOTHER DIMENSION" instead of "I'M KILLING YOU", and then suddenly assumed that all of their translations are bad.

Hate them for spoiling Claymore. But don't hate them for something you can only assume based on hearsay. :/

[Superkenon]

But you're assuming he's assuming, which makes your beration somewhat comical. I know my reason for often frowning at FUNimation dubs comes directly from the shows I've watched, rather than word of mouth. You shouldn't automatically assume the opinions of others - ones that oppose your own opinion - are based on nothing.

I don't think they're all bad though. Besides Kodocha, I thought Fullmetal Alchemist's was alright... and maybe Fruits Basket. The others have not agreed with my tastes though.

[Hamel]

Yep! Laura Bailey, and she's insane at what she does. I've been watching the Kodomo no Omocha dub, and they could not have picked anyone better. Hearing her be so hilarious in ENGLISH and being able to understand why it's hilarious sure is fun!

Laura Bailey's one of the good ones for sure, in Kodocha especially. Easily one my favorite of her performances. That whole dub was great, actually. FUNimation's dubs don't always sit right with me, but for whatever reason that one felt like it had a lot more heart put in it. Captured the essence of the original version rather well.

The reason Funi doesn't generally sit well with people is that their translations are notorious for being amongst the worst in all the anime business. Because of that, there is always a discrepancy between the actions and reactions of the characters and the spoken dialogue.

And I ask just who these "people" are that say their translations aren't good. Oh, right, probably biased subtitle fans that saw DBZ, laughed at how it's "I'LL SEND YOU TO ANOTHER DIMENSION" instead of "I'M KILLING YOU", and then suddenly assumed that all of their translations are bad.

Hate them for spoiling Claymore. But don't hate them for something you can only assume based on hearsay. :/

Funny you should mention DBZ because the first exemple that comes to mind is changing 8000 to 9000
I am sure there are more exemple for that from people that remember more stuff but this one is pretty famous because of the meme "IT'S OVER 9000"

[Clephas]

Yep! Laura Bailey, and she's insane at what she does. I've been watching the Kodomo no Omocha dub, and they could not have picked anyone better. Hearing her be so hilarious in ENGLISH and being able to understand why it's hilarious sure is fun!

Laura Bailey's one of the good ones for sure, in Kodocha especially. Easily one my favorite of her performances. That whole dub was great, actually. FUNimation's dubs don't always sit right with me, but for whatever reason that one felt like it had a lot more heart put in it. Captured the essence of the original version rather well.

The reason Funi doesn't generally sit well with people is that their translations are notorious for being amongst the worst in all the anime business. Because of that, there is always a discrepancy between the actions and reactions of the characters and the spoken dialogue.


And I ask just who these "people" are that say their translations aren't good. Oh, right, probably biased subtitle fans that saw DBZ, laughed at how it's "I'LL SEND YOU TO ANOTHER DIMENSION" instead of "I'M KILLING YOU", and then suddenly assumed that all of their translations are bad.

Hate them for spoiling Claymore. But don't hate them for something you can only assume based on hearsay. :/


Series I've seen on Funi DVD or stream where they couldn't even get the NOUNS right: Fruits Basket, Shikabane Hime: Aka, and Hell Girl.

Every fan translator on the net knows this: Funi's translators are all dictionary-bound morons who can't even do that right. This isn't just one or two cases, it is nearly universal. Hitoshura, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop defending the incompetent. It's offensive on every level to those who actually happen to be good at translating.


Addition: The only reason I ever bought their DVDs is because I feel strongly about supporting series that are worthy of note, and because when Fruits Basket came out I had no internet access.

[Hitoshura]

Hitoshura, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop defending the incompetent.

And I'd appreciate it if you'd stop talking out of your ass. It's offensive to... well, everyone.

[Clephas]

The logic behind my assertion is very simple. Simple nouns, like the names of vegetables, the names of animals, and other such things are the easiest things to translate. When mistakes are made with those, even a layman such as yourself would be able to pick it out at times, if he was paying attention. The reason why I said Funi couldn't even use their dictionaries properly was because they made such idiot mistakes so many times that the Funi translators are considered to be a joke by most of the translation community.

In the case of Shikabane Hime: Aka, the mistakes were on a more difficult subject, the hierarchy of Buddhist priests in Japan. Most people, realizing that Buddhist hierarchical names don't appear in most dictionaries, would do research to figure these things out precisely. That they didn't do so was unfortunate, but I honestly can't blame them, as it took me a good eight hours to finally translate all the hierarchical terms in Shikabane Hime.

I'm not going to mention Americanizations, as that is a philosophical difference as much as it is a technical difference. I also entirely ignore the overuse of approximations. Those are things that are relatively unimportant to the dub crowd, so arguing them with you is pointless.

Simple, easy translations being messed up is the real issue. Sentences that easily and smoothly translate into English being completely mistranslated. Even giving them the benefit of the doubt, that over-editing created a certain number of those mistakes, it is still unacceptable for them to appear in a product being sold for such a high price. This is the reason why fansubbers like myself have nothing but contempt for Funimation.

[Olethros]

The reason why I said Funi couldn't even use their dictionaries properly was because they made such idiot mistakes so many times that the Funi translators are considered to be a joke by most of the translation community.

This is the reason why fansubbers like myself have nothing but contempt for Funimation.

...And yet THEY are working professionally and YOU are not. Weird how that works, eh?

[Clephas]

The reason why I said Funi couldn't even use their dictionaries properly was because they made such idiot mistakes so many times that the Funi translators are considered to be a joke by most of the translation community.

This is the reason why fansubbers like myself have nothing but contempt for Funimation.

...And yet THEY are working professionally and YOU are not. Weird how that works, eh?

That's mostly because I don't have the capitol to purchase the license for an anime series, Olethros. *patiently states the obvious*

[Manly Biceps]

The reason why I said Funi couldn't even use their dictionaries properly was because they made such idiot mistakes so many times that the Funi translators are considered to be a joke by most of the translation community.

This is the reason why fansubbers like myself have nothing but contempt for Funimation.

...And yet THEY are working professionally and YOU are not. Weird how that works, eh?

Hey, hey. That's a tad bit harsh.

I can't speak for all the editors here, but I know personally the reason I got to editing was because I was pretty darn sure that I was better than 90% of the people getting paid to do this. Obviously I had a lot to learn once I actually started doing the work, and it wasn't nearly as easy as I thought it was, but I think my body of work reflects that I am good enough to be paid for this work.

So don't rain on a guy's dream, O. (Unless it's Brett Favre.) You don't need to point out the fact that a guy's getting paid for what Clephas feels is inferior quality work. I was in their position before, and being on the outside looking in isn't the most fun of situations.

[Hitoshura]

The reason why I said Funi couldn't even use their dictionaries properly was because they made such idiot mistakes so many times that the Funi translators are considered to be a joke by most of the translation community.

This is the reason why fansubbers like myself have nothing but contempt for Funimation.

...And yet THEY are working professionally and YOU are not. Weird how that works, eh?

Hey, hey. That's a tad bit harsh.

I can't speak for all the editors here, but I know personally the reason I got to editing was because I was pretty darn sure that I was better than 90% of the people getting paid to do this. Obviously I had a lot to learn once I actually started doing the work, and it wasn't nearly as easy as I thought it was, but I think my body of work reflects that I am good enough to be paid for this work.

So don't rain on a guy's dream, O. (Unless it's Brett Favre.) You don't need to point out the fact that a guy's getting paid for what Clephas feels is inferior quality work. I was in their position before, and being on the outside looking in isn't the most fun of situations.

Who says he's even a fansubber though? I sure as hell haven't seen the name "Clephas" appear in any of my fansubbing groups. Sorry, but I'm taking everything this guy says with a grain of salt, because more often than not, people will talk out of their ass just to try and win an argument.

Also, this is the first instance I've ever heard of where Funimation was put down for having "bad translations". By someone "claiming" to be a fansubber. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Oh, and on that note, I've also heard fansub groups more often criticized for bad translations than legitimate companies. Coincidence? I think not. Not to mention that the fansubbing translation community is rotting with elitists and drama out the wazoo.

[Hamel]

Seriously Olethros some people actually DO know Japanese to some degree (and not by watching anime I mean by actually learning it) and they spot Funi's mistakes
Just because most anime watchers outside of Japan don't know Japanese doesn't mean that everyone doesn't
and it annoys people to spot those mistakes especially if they pay to watch it and with the ridicules cost of an anime DVD (unless it's a boxset) you can't really blame them

[Hitoshura]

Seriously Olethros some people actully DO know Japanese to some degree (and not by watching anime I mean by actully learning it) and they spot Funi's mistakes
Just because most anime watchers outside of Japan don't know Japanese doesn't mean that everyone doesn't
and it annoys people to spot those mistakes especilly if they pay to watch it and with the rediculse cost of an anime DVD (unless it's a boxset) you can't really blame them

Sorry, but unless someone actually knows the language and not just "a little", they probably don't understand enough of it to actually spot the mistake. They may THINK they have because it wasn't translated like their little dictionary said, but there are far more things to take into account than a silly dictionary.

[Hamel]

Sorry, but unless someone actually knows the language and not just "a little", they probably don't understand enough of it to actually spot the mistake. They may THINK they have because it wasn't translated like their little dictionary said, but there are far more things to take into account than a silly dictionary.

Again I will give the DBZ exemple as it's the easiest one (though a little silly)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8T6xnSmfQc
八千=8000
yet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiMHTK15Pik

[Olethros]

The reason why I said Funi couldn't even use their dictionaries properly was because they made such idiot mistakes so many times that the Funi translators are considered to be a joke by most of the translation community.

This is the reason why fansubbers like myself have nothing but contempt for Funimation.

...And yet THEY are working professionally and YOU are not. Weird how that works, eh?

Hey, hey. That's a tad bit harsh.

I can't speak for all the editors here, but I know personally the reason I got to editing was because I was pretty darn sure that I was better than 90% of the people getting paid to do this. Obviously I had a lot to learn once I actually started doing the work, and it wasn't nearly as easy as I thought it was, but I think my body of work reflects that I am good enough to be paid for this work.

So don't rain on a guy's dream, O. (Unless it's Brett Favre.) You don't need to point out the fact that a guy's getting paid for what Clephas feels is inferior quality work. I was in their position before, and being on the outside looking in isn't the most fun of situations.

OK. I'll admit I was maybe a teeny bit over zealous on that one. It was the most logically next step in the argument, however.

I do apologize for (perhaps) stepping out of bounds though.

Hito has a good point. Everything, including the claims I make if one is so inclined, should be taken with a grain of salt. On the internet, the burden of proof portion of arguments are often lacking or even non-existant.

[Hitoshura]

Not just that, but I'd take someone with professional certification's word over someone without. Do you want your doctor to be someone who went to school for 10 years or someone who studied at their house for 10 years?

[Manly Biceps]

Not just that, but I'd take someone with professional certification's word over someone without. Do you want your doctor to be someone who went to school for 10 years or someone who studied at their house for 10 years?

This isn't necessarily true, though it is pretty much in all medical situations. :)

If I see a resume of a computer tech with only A+ cert, and I see a resume of a guy that doesn't have A+ cert, the guy without ranks higher in my mind. Some certification is such a joke that it makes you look stupid for having it.

[Olethros]

Agreed. That does go for some medical certifications as well, although it's more in the traditional vs. alternative arena. Chiropractors are almost universally looked down upon by MDs. Also, almost certainly those with 4yr specialized degrees are better at what they do than a 2yr generalized certification. Not always, mind you, but definitely more often then not.

[deku2106]

That's the same 'incompatible comparison' logic that causes comparisons between 3D Sonic games and being shot in the face. Not to mention that there are certified doctors that can't tell the difference between a migraine and a cold. I partly lost a job because of this. I don't remember the last time a cold made me go blind, but apparently that's what he thought it was. Both sides have their bad and their good, though I still wouldn't trust a backstreet doctor.

Oh, and Clephas is a translation checker for m.3.3.w., if that means anything to anyone. Google isn't that difficult to use.

[Olethros]

Well, this is fairly well off topic, so I'm going to let it go. There's a better time and place for this debate, and the "Japanese Language" thread isn't it. I do, for the record, have several points of rebuttal though.

[Hitoshura]

That's the same 'incompatible comparison' logic that causes comparisons between 3D Sonic games and being shot in the face. Not to mention that there are certified doctors that can't tell the difference between a migraine and a cold. I partly lost a job because of this. I don't remember the last time a cold made me go blind, but apparently that's what he thought it was. Both sides have their bad and their good, though I still wouldn't trust a backstreet doctor.

Oh, and Clephas is a translation checker for m.3.3.w., if that means anything to anyone. Google isn't that difficult to use.

Nah, welcome to analogies. That's the funny thing about analogies, is that they don't have to be the exact same type of subject matter, they only have to have something in common. What they have in common is expertise, so don't even bother trying to discredit it.

[deku2106]

Okay, so say I said Funimation's translations are the same as the holocaust because both are commonly regarded as bad. Would that be a good analogy? No, it wouldn't. One resulted in deaths, and the other resulted in angry posts on a message board. Analogies work when they aren't too far-fetched, sure, but comparing something that's open to interpretation (something that may in a bad and/or different translation) and something that isn't (something that may result in a bad operation, diagnosis, perscription, death, whatever) falls under my interpretation of 'far-fetched'. But whatever, think what you want, my mind always ends up going in circles on itself in these situations and I tend not to make sense.

What I was going to post before that: To be honest, debates are pretty stupid anyway, especially on the Internet. The most you'll get is a clashing of unwavering horns and the double-butthurt, forever-escalating arms-race of half-truths, then they'll be back to their opposing paths within seconds.

Because I haven't thrown my circular-tokens-of-American-currency into the thread-proper at the moment:

On the subject of the Japanese language option, I'm for it solely because removal of features to satiate a specific side (rather than some other option such as feasibility, licensing or programming issues) seems ridiculous. AND on the whether-or-not-you-can-understand-it thing, that's slightly missing the point. If the spoken language itself mattered so much in gauging emotion (which is pretty much the point of acting), everything may as well be read in the flat, droning tones of Microsoft Sam. There are great actors (and directors, because they never get enough credit when it comes to the performance) in both languages, and there are terrible actors (again, and directors) in both languages, but I think that if some people prefer one over the other, there should always be that choice. Hell, if it were possible, I'd request character-specific language options, but that falls pretty far into 'difficult' territory.

tl;dr Do both. If anything, those who won't buy something because of the addition of a language choice are a minority even within the leagues of minority. I'm not gonna argue this because 1) I'm terrible at that, what with the whole forgetting-my-point-three-seconds-in-and-not-making-sense thing, and 2) no-one will change their stance in the end. I'm stubborn, you're stubborn, they're stubborn and we're all uncompromising idiots together.

[Olethros]

Wow, that's a pretty long post for someone to end up saying they're not going to debate a topic.

The quality of my analogy aside, I can't help but point out a couple of things I've noted: 1) You only turned up after Clephas' credentials were questioned, and you also seemed to be the only one who had heard ofhim/her. Maybe a coincidence and maybe not. 2) You're being overly melodramatic with your mis-diagnosis point leading me to suspect you have an axe to grind. One I'm certainly not going to be able to dissuade you from. 3) The people who want the language option removed when possible are very likely a minority, I'll give you, but the people who actually want or care about the option versus the people who don't isn't up for debate. Average Joe American could give a crap less whether you've included moon speak in his game. I'm absolutely certain on that point.

[deku2106]

I wouldn't say it's debating, more throwing what I think out there based on the idea as a whole and going no furt-

Dammit, you tricked me into making another post. But I will actually say this, I know nothing of Clephas other than what I just found on Google. Come to anyone's defence, and you're immediately thought a sockpuppet. Great. I just don't like the whole 'You can't trust anything on the Internet' thing, nor many other over-exaggerations the Internet populace happens to make. I guess you thinking that my supposed coincidental appearance backs this up. For the record, I joined to inform someone that Play-Asia wouldn't ship to the UK. And to vote in that Persona 2 PSP poll.

So, comparing an uncertified translator to an uncertified doctor (and what I said is exactly what it implies to the people who hear it, anyway) isn't melodramatic? News to me. (Retrospectively, I guess this part can be seen as a debate? Whatever, I don't care.) In honesty, I'm not too sure what you mean by 'having an axe to grind'? It's a phrase I don't often hear.

Anyway, yeah, I wasn't intentionally trying to debate that (and nor am I here, this is just a clarification of my post, before you throw that out again), I'm just throwing my two cents . Basically, I don't, nor will I ever claim to speak for everyone in a country I don't live in. Or anyone within my country either. I can't say what America or anyone else wants with absolute certainty because I am not them. Therefore, this isn't my counter-argument or my debate, just my malformed, useless thoughts about the whole 'Japanese-languages' thing in general rather than this ongoing debate specifically.

[Manly Biceps]

Whoa. Time to turn down the heat here a bit. We gotta keep this a friendly place for people to have intelligent debate. I understand getting heated at times, but now we're heated in a completely off-topic way.

So, scale it back a bit.

deku: The phrase, "have an axe to grind" means that you come into a situation with ulterior motives or intentions.

[nicholai441]

wow, you all had fun without me. and made a new friend it seems.

let's see.

a few points that i missed:

laura bailey: she's like a female US version of Soichiro Hoshi to me.
they both have that awesome ability to play two completely different characters in the same anime or game and not many would be able to pick it up. (Soichiro Hoshi did the voices of Zero and Souma in shining Wind and Shining Tears X wind)

doctors: i've heard doctors only want money and shouldn't really be trusted too much. so with that in mind i would rather have a doctor i can trust to do a good job over a doctor that just wants my money.

Funimation: the few things i've watched from them i found pretty good. not sure about the translations of things since it' been awhile since i watched their animes, but dubbing wasn't too bad for me. vocal tone wise there were some of those considerable differences in the sound of a character in japanese to the sound of the character in english. all in all i found some of there stuff pretty good.

Sorry, but I'm taking everything this guy says with a grain of salt


as we should do with you?


lastly... there are a lot of times that needing to know the translations to game don't bother me, it just the vocal tones. example, i've been playing dissidia for the past few days now and some of the vocal tones i don't care for. mainly when some characters get defeated, their defeating vocal tone seems a bit off.
another thing that takes me out of playing a game with english vocals is when a VA i admire is voicing a character that i'm fighting, then it becomes a mental question of "do i really want to kill the character that has (insert respectable VA's name) voice?". so it takes out of the game play for me and i start seeing the character has the VA.
i'm not saying i don't like english vocals, i'm just saying that that's one thing that takes out of a game for me.
names are another thing i don't care for in translations. for different reasons:
1. name changing, one of the common ones is Touma to Thomas. a recent one i saw was Masaru to Marcus
2. mispronouncings, can't think of any at the moment, but i have heard some.

speaking vocal reactions. it's interesting and fun to see how different the english VA toned the character reaction and how the japanese VA toned that same character reactions.

[Clephas]

I apologize for being one of the main culprits in heating this up so much. I let what another person said get to my head and ended up getting obsessed. Not that I think what I said was invalid, but I do want to apologize for the parts of my posts that were direct attacks on individuals, looking at them in retrospect with calmer eyes. Acting like that always leaves me a bitter aftertaste...

As for my fansubbing credentials, feel free to believe or disbelieve. It isn't like I can prove to anyone here that I am the same Clephas that did the TLC for Telepathy Shoujo Ran and the latter parts of Special A.

Edit: And to be fair, tlcing anything that Xess is responsible for the initial translation of is a really, really easy job, as that guy is even more OCS than I am.

[Killrig]

I think this is a media space issue more than anything else. Voice sound files can get quite large and take up a significant portion of the disc or carts space.

For my personal preference, I'm only interested in the original Japanese audio if one of the following apply:
- The English VO is of low acting quality -- which Atlus hasn't been guilty of for quite some time now.
- The game is set in Japan or the character's native language is Japanese.

If the VO is in English and the quality is high (Person 3/4, etc), I happily leave it on English.

These are just my opinions on the matter. I would never object to a title support Japanese and English Voice options. I think it's cool that NISA has been supporting this for the Disgaea series.

-- Killrig

[Hamel]

It isn't like I can prove to anyone here that I am the same Clephas that did the TLC for Telepathy Shoujo Ran and the latter parts of Special A.


Write like this and Hitoshura will believe you

[Superkenon]

Personally, I believe "I respectfully disagree" is a much kinder way to express a difference of opinion than going the "you're probably a liar and therefore your view means naught" route. But maybe that's just me. I do have a warped way of handling human communications. You know, wanting to honor other people's opinions and all.

Ah, that was a little sassy. Forgive me.

Anyway, even though FUNimation's efforts often irk me personally, they do deserve credit for bringing over so many anime. Their arguable flaws aside, they're a pretty mighty force in the translation industry... helping to bring countless anime to more and more people. I never heard of Detective Conan before I watched their version of it, Case Closed. I may laugh at their americanization of the show now, but it's still because of that that I was turned onto the show in the first place. It's an important job they do... we just hope they continue to improve their work, eh? And without a doubt, their translations have gotten better over the years.


...And hey, at least they're not 4Kids? ;)

[Onion of Mystery]

And hey, at least they're not 4Kids? ;)

Hey, don't make me point a hammer in your general direction.

[Hitoshura]

It isn't like I can prove to anyone here that I am the same Clephas that did the TLC for Telepathy Shoujo Ran and the latter parts of Special A.


Write like this and Hitoshura will believe you

Oh I hate you.

TOUCHE GOOD SIR, TOUCHE.

Anyways, FFXIII will have English voice acting only. HEE HEE. <3

Sorry, but I'm taking everything this guy says with a grain of salt


as we should do with you?



Nah, to make things even easier, anything I say in red is the absolute truth, and there is no reason to doubt it.

But seriously, I'm talking about people making wild claims here. How can you take what I say with a grain of salt when I'm not claiming to be someone important? (Not saying that Clephas is, merely saying that I'm not making the same claims they are.)

another thing that takes me out of playing a game with english vocals is when a VA i admire is voicing a character that i'm fighting, then it becomes a mental question of "do i really want to kill the character that has (insert respectable VA's name) voice?". so it takes out of the game play for me and i start seeing the character has the VA.
i'm not saying i don't like english vocals, i'm just saying that that's one thing that takes out of a game for me.

This is a bit silly. You shouldn't hold the English dubbing accountable for a problem in your own head. I know you're not saying you don't like the vocals, but it still feels like you're saying it's the English dubbing's fault for um... taking out of a game for you... that's worded a bit strangely, but I think I understand what you mean.

names are another thing i don't care for in translations. for different reasons:
1. name changing, one of the common ones is Touma to Thomas. a recent one i saw was Masaru to Marcus
2. mispronouncings, can't think of any at the moment, but i have heard some.


This I'll also agree with. I dislike it when localizations change names, or when they change other aspects. Example: Initial D (probably the most extreme example I can use). As a HUGE, ENORMOUS Eurobeat fan, to me, the Initial D dubbing is a travesty. Not only do they rename everyone ridiculously, but every single bit of Eurobeat is removed and replaced with awful rap. Even when I wasn't a Eurobeat fan, I was still disappointed, but now it really makes me sad.

SEE, I CAN BE OBJECTIVE.

[Olethros]

doctors: i've heard doctors only want money and shouldn't really be trusted too much. so with that in mind i would rather have a doctor i can trust to do a good job over a doctor that just wants my money.

Yikes. Talk about off topic bait. Since I respect the tolerance the admins have shown within this thread so far, I'll not bite on this.

@Clephas: Nothing personal, really, it's just a debate. If I hit below the belt, I do apologize.

@Superkenon: Perhaps the truth comes across less politely in written form, but it doesn't make it any less of a truth. I'll admit that my manners do tend to take more of a backseat when on the 'net than IRL. It's a time and energy thing really. I'm as blunt and brutally honest in both circumstances, but I forgo the added pleasentries face-to-face communication requires.

Finally, hurray for FFXIII! They're definitely going about it the right way for NA sales.

[nicholai441]

doctors: i've heard doctors only want money and shouldn't really be trusted too much. so with that in mind i would rather have a doctor i can trust to do a good job over a doctor that just wants my money.

Yikes. Talk about off topic bait. Since I respect the tolerance the admins have shown within this thread so far, I'll not bite on this.


Finally, hurray for FFXIII! They're definitely going about it the right way for NA sales.

the doctor thing was in reply to the talk about how it seemed that some official localizing companies don't do a good job with the translations where as fan subbers seem to be better at it. there was that metaphore of doctors and i was just saying how if i had to choose between getting my translations from a translator only in the job for the money and not willing to do a good job about it, or a translator doing the job for fans and tries to do the best job they could. i would choose the one who tries or at least the one that seems to try.
i didn't say all that in so many words, but that's what i meant.

as for FFXIII, the last i heard was that the 360 version wasn't going to have dual audio because there isn't enough room on the disc, but the PS3 version will have dual audio.... the last i heard

[Hitoshura]

Nope, it's confirmed to be English audio only.

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/gc-09-final-fantasy/55241

Also, that's a lame argument. Why do people learn languages? Because they like them. Someone who is paid to translate is going to care just as much, if not more, than a fan translator, and they'll also be more inclined to do a better job, since y'know, it pays the bills.

See, this is why I really can't stand purists/sub elitists. Because you guys try to find every excuse in the book to put dubs or official localizations down. Instead of trying to look at things objectively, you cloud your judgment and don't think things through with logic and reason.

[Clephas]

Why are you heating things up again when we were so politely asked to cool it down?

[SickleCellAnemia]

being shot in the face.

Been there, done that.........>.>

[Hitoshura]

Why are you heating things up again when we were so politely asked to cool it down?

Because I'm not namecalling, I'm speaking the truth. If the truth is what heats things up... well that's just ridiculous.

Also LOL sickle, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha.

[nicholai441]

Also, that's a lame argument. Why do people learn languages? Because they like them. Someone who is paid to translate is going to care just as much, if not more, than a fan translator, and they'll also be more inclined to do a better job, since y'know, it pays the bills.

See, this is why I really can't stand purists/sub elitists. Because you guys try to find every excuse in the book to put dubs or official localizations down. Instead of trying to look at things objectively, you cloud your judgment and don't think things through with logic and reason.

not everyone goes to school to learn for the passion of it. many do it to get a better job with more money. then of course some DID have the passion for it but lost it and just do the job for the money.
so i'm saying all the bad translations that people say official companies do, maybe it's because they lost the interest of doing it and are just localizing it for the sales.
i bring up gundam again. when it was popular and the biggest thing, bandai could probably have translated the games how ever they wanted and no one would have cared fans would have bought the game because it was to a series they liked.

back when voltron/go lion first came out to the US (they say on a special feature), they translated the series based on what they saw mostly(if there was any translating done), not by what was really being said. they even edited the series so that it would be more appealing to the US, by taking out any asian references like chop sticks or japanese symbols that would show up.

thinking back at that.. perhaps localization companies should go back to doing that then, since it wouldn't make a difference for people who just want english voices.
as we all stated, it's not like we can really compare the translation to what really being said.
so why have good exact translations? just look at what's going on and make some lines for it.

so you're right we don't need the japanese vocals in games, heck with that said, we don't even need the translations to be good, just entertaining. that's how it was done in the old days and with out anything for people who know japanese (unlike me, i admit to not knowing full japanese, but being able to pick out words and line here and there and able to get an idea of what's being talked about) to compare it could still work now.

by the way, i'm just humoring everyone. also saying the alternative to good and bad translating.

i'm not really sure there is truth and fact in anything in general (just referring to the talk about how everything someone says might be truth) there are only possibilities and chance. especially with the gaming world it seems. you could hear or read information told about a game one day then find out they did something else with it later.
referring to some space news, the planet pluto is not really a planet.
but this part is a conversation for another thread.

[PainKilleR-[CE]]

Is there even any historical basis to believe SquareEnix would try to put dual audio on an FF title? I generally prefer the option, but I can't recall an FF title (especially a main series title) having Japanese audio available.

One of the reasons I disliked the idea of putting voice acting in RPGs in the first place was the generally low quality of English voice acting. That quality has increased significantly in the time since, especially with the rise in popularity of Japanese and Chinese film and animation over the last decade or so. However, the quality can be hit or miss, and there's rarely any way of knowing beforehand.

I usually give the English VAs a shot, but there aren't a lot of titles that give me the option to switch in which I don't end up eventually using the Japanese voices. Of course, this is more than I can say for movies, where I usually won't even bother trying to listen to them in English.

[nicholai441]

;131173']Is there even any historical basis to believe SquareEnix would try to put dual audio on an FF title? I generally prefer the option, but I can't recall an FF title (especially a main series title) having Japanese audio available.

One of the reasons I disliked the idea of putting voice acting in RPGs in the first place was the generally low quality of English voice acting. That quality has increased significantly in the time since, especially with the rise in popularity of Japanese and Chinese film and animation over the last decade or so. However, the quality can be hit or miss, and there's rarely any way of knowing beforehand.

I usually give the English VAs a shot, but there aren't a lot of titles that give me the option to switch in which I don't end up eventually using the Japanese voices. Of course, this is more than I can say for movies, where I usually won't even bother trying to listen to them in English.

i don't really mind that their not putting dual audio option in FFXIII, it's just bother some that they said they were going to, then turn around and say they aren't. it seems to happen alot with the media world, so it's irritating. but i'll get over it and i won't care if they did or didn't. i just hope it has replay value.

[Olethros]

so i'm saying all the bad translations that people say official companies do, maybe it's because they lost the interest of doing it and are just localizing it for the sales.



All companies that do official localizations do it for the sales and therefore profit.

There's also the fact that burning out (losing your passion, if you will) is possible in any occupation, and down right probable in occupations with lots of stressful deadlines and such. I sincerely doubt a "fan" turned professional wouldn't succumb to the same problem.

I'm sorry, but I can't imagine coming around to the idea of hobbyists being superior to professionals as a general rule. Of course there will be exceptions, but that doesn't disprove the validity of the generalization.

(Yes, I realize I took a tiny portion of the post to choose to answer, but the rest of it didn't seem all that relevant).

[Manly Biceps]

Why are you heating things up again when we were so politely asked to cool it down?

Because I'm not namecalling, I'm speaking the truth. If the truth is what heats things up... well that's just ridiculous.

You can't see how you just made some random conjecture up and then called it the truth?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-workers-willing-marry-their-jobs

That's 15% of the people who "love-love" their job. Bear in mind that's an increase from 9%. Anywhere from 85%-90% of the people could find something else to do and not care.

These are the people you're saying obviously care as much as the people who spend their time doing it without getting paid. Burnout happens. And when you don't have enough people to rotate onto tasks, (unlike the situation here at Atlus...which explains why you see mods have periods of increased and decreased forum activity.) shoddy quality work is the end result.

When you're doing something for fun, and you're burned out, you generally stop and take a break...because what do you and your "higher-ups" care, you're not getting paid for it. When you're doing something for a paycheck and you're burned out, you come in and go through the motions so you can get paid, or you get a different job.

I'm also going to point out that fansubber and the fan community specifically pick projects they already know they enjoy, whereas in the business translation world, you get what you're given. Imagine having something like "Boys Be" dropped on your lap for 6 months. Don't you think the fansub community, somewhere where people actually enjoyed the subpar source material, is going to be far more passionate about it?

Your arguments are just as easy to poke holes in than his, Hito. It's not the "truth" that people have an issue with, it's the fact that you're calling other people's arguments lame, while your own don't have any more merit. His argument's true in a number of circumstances, and yours is true in a number of them, too. There aren't a lot of issues in the world that get accurately summarized by blanket statements.

Keep it calm, which you were doing a decent job of before, and everyone stays happy.

[Clephas]

Why are you heating things up again when we were so politely asked to cool it down?

Because I'm not namecalling, I'm speaking the truth. If the truth is what heats things up... well that's just ridiculous.

You can't see how you just made some random conjecture up and then called it the truth?

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-workers-willing-marry-their-jobs

That's 15% of the people who "love-love" their job. Bear in mind that's an increase from 9%. Anywhere from 85%-90% of the people could find something else to do and not care.

These are the people you're saying obviously care as much as the people who spend their time doing it without getting paid. Burnout happens. And when you don't have enough people to rotate onto tasks, (unlike the situation here at Atlus...which explains why you see mods have periods of increased and decreased forum activity.) shoddy quality work is the end result.

When you're doing something for fun, and you're burned out, you generally stop and take a break...because what do you and your "higher-ups" care, you're not getting paid for it. When you're doing something for a paycheck and you're burned out, you come in and go through the motions so you can get paid, or you get a different job.

Your arguments are just as easy to poke holes in than his, Hito. It's not the "truth" that people have an issue with, it's the fact that you're calling other people's arguments lame, while your own don't have any more merit.

Keep it calm, which you were doing a decent job of before, and everyone stays happy.

Haha... you are right about that. Translation is hard work. No matter how much you enjoy it, you'll get burned out and need to take a break. As evidence, most subbing groups that have only one team eventually learn to take a season off once in a while.

In my case, I'm taking the summer season off, only working with Sakura-Shrine on their slow re-translation and re-encoding of Card Captor Sakura for Bluray and DVD quality files. One episode every two weeks is a lot easier than five a week, like I was doing last season.

That being said, if I ever stopped completely, the itch would drive me crazy. I wouldn't have believed it when I first started, but translation is actually addictive... at least for me. I'm actually thinking of taking one of the certification tests once I've gotten a better grasp on the horribly complex world of kanji, which is actually ten times harder (more tedious, anyway) than just learning Japanese.

[Iris]

back when voltron/go lion first came out to the US (they say on a special feature), they translated the series based on what they saw mostly(if there was any translating done), not by what was really being said. they even edited the series so that it would be more appealing to the US, by taking out any asian references like chop sticks or japanese symbols that would show up.

thinking back at that.. perhaps localization companies should go back to doing that then, since it wouldn't make a difference for people who just want english voices.
as we all stated, it's not like we can really compare the translation to what really being said.
so why have good exact translations? just look at what's going on and make some lines for it.

Now you're just setting up a straw man. The desire to have localization that does more than offer a direct, word-for-word translation does not equate to the desire to just have some guy with a notepad watch an episode and make crap up.

Localization is an art, not a science. The art bit comes into the fact that you have to take those direct, literal translations and find a way to render it in the language you're going into that is natural while still capturing the essence of the original, which is in fact quite a bit more complex than "look at what's going on and make some lines for it."

I'm fairly sure that most of those in this thread saying they'd prefer English dubs for their games aren't doing so because they don't give a damn about what's really going on, but rather because they want it presented in a language they understand, with idioms that make more sense for them culturally and puns they can be expected to understand. I used to work with a manga scanlation group, and some of those puns don't translate easily, but we opted to spend a while coming up with something that sounded better in English while keeping the same spirit -- not because we didn't care about the Japanese pun, but because localization is not just about being literal, but being accessible.

And hell, I like to play my games with English dubs so I can walk across the room and retrieve my popcorn from the microwave during a cutscene without worrying about missing what somebody just said because the countertop is just high enough to obscure a subtitle. There are plenty of reasons someone might want an English dub that have absolutely nothing to do with not caring about having the most ~*~true to the original~*~ experience possible.

[nicholai441]

back when voltron/go lion first came out to the US (they say on a special feature), they translated the series based on what they saw mostly(if there was any translating done), not by what was really being said. they even edited the series so that it would be more appealing to the US, by taking out any asian references like chop sticks or japanese symbols that would show up.

thinking back at that.. perhaps localization companies should go back to doing that then, since it wouldn't make a difference for people who just want english voices.
as we all stated, it's not like we can really compare the translation to what really being said.
so why have good exact translations? just look at what's going on and make some lines for it.

Now you're just setting up a straw man. The desire to have localization that does more than offer a direct, word-for-word translation does not equate to the desire to just have some guy with a notepad watch an episode and make crap up.

Localization is an art, not a science. The art bit comes into the fact that you have to take those direct, literal translations and find a way to render it in the language you're going into that is natural while still capturing the essence of the original, which is in fact quite a bit more complex than "look at what's going on and make some lines for it."

I'm fairly sure that most of those in this thread saying they'd prefer English dubs for their games aren't doing so because they don't give a damn about what's really going on, but rather because they want it presented in a language they understand, with idioms that make more sense for them culturally and puns they can be expected to understand. I used to work with a manga scanlation group, and some of those puns don't translate easily, but we opted to spend a while coming up with something that sounded better in English while keeping the same spirit -- not because we didn't care about the Japanese pun, but because localization is not just about being literal, but being accessible.

And hell, I like to play my games with English dubs so I can walk across the room and retrieve my popcorn from the microwave during a cutscene without worrying about missing what somebody just said because the countertop is just high enough to obscure a subtitle. There are plenty of reasons someone might want an English dub that have absolutely nothing to do with not caring about having the most ~*~true to the original~*~ experience possible.

once again, i'm not saying i don't like english audio. i was just stating that if the people who say that a localized game should ONLY have english audio then maybe they'd prefer that game to be remade completely for the US market.

[Iris]

But there is no correlation demonstrated between "I want English audio only" and "I want somebody to make #### up." You're not arguing the reasons people are actually presenting for wanting it, you're just coming up with a bogus argument that doesn't actually relate to what they're looking for at all.

[PainKilleR-[CE]]

But there is no correlation demonstrated between "I want English audio only" and "I want somebody to make #### up." You're not arguing the reasons people are actually presenting for wanting it, you're just coming up with a bogus argument that doesn't actually relate to what they're looking for at all.

That's generally the whole problem with this debate. Most of the people that want Japanese audio aren't arguing that they don't want the games localized, either. In fact, most of them aren't even arguing against having the game dubbed in English, just arguing that they want the option of Japanese audio.

What I really don't understand is why anyone argues for either audio track to be exclusive. Size constraints are a valid reason to make an NA release English only, but people still complain when NISA (for instance) works around this by doing a dual-disc release. By the same token, budget constraints should be a valid reason to do a Japanese audio only release (subbed obviously), but many people don't seem to be willing to entertain that option, yet.

[Dark Warrior]

How about give the game a "Voice option", let everyone chooses the Voice to be English or Japanese?
And if about the complaints about "bad translation", when the game start, give a note like you edit to make more sense and more enjoyable experience, no one would complaint if you give a note like that (I think).
Athough it might make the game like 1-4 more GBs, it worth to make it like that.
The Japanese voice is the original voice and it sound better, too. English is okay too but I prefer listening to the orginal ones.

[Hitoshura]

@ManlyBiceps

See, there's a problem with that though. How many of those people went to school for what they wanted to do? How many of them work their job "because they have to" instead of because it was something they wanted to do? How many of them went through college in one direction, only to realize it wasn't what they wanted and either switched halfway through or decided to just finish something they liked? There's a lot of different factors that you're not including in that survey, not to mention that, even as someone who has had to do a bit of probability and statistics, I don't put very much faith in surveys no matter what method of subject selection they use: I just don't see it as very accurate unless they literally interview every single person. It's kind of like, um, I think I saw a survey a few weeks ago that said the 360 had a 56% failure rate. I just don't buy it, especially with a small population.

Languages are special, I think. It's a lot of learning and practice. Unlike most areas of expertise, there's not a lot of calculation or logical deduction (aside from maybe deciding on something that can be translated multiple ways) or anything or the sort, just memorization and use. Of course, I'm sure there are other subjects like this, I just can't think of them right now. I guess I can see how someone could get burned out on something they love, and admittedly, I never considered subject matter to be of any importance. Though, the way I see it, subject matter is merely the icing on the cake, you're still doing the thing you love: using the language you love. I guess that does increase the passion for the project, so I'll give you that much.

Either way though, I simply do not see his point, it is not a job where people can simply not do a good job because they're only in it for the money", because logically, even if you are getting burned out on it, that is not an excuse to not do a good job of it. Hell, I hate my job, I hate people, I hate dealing with them, but I suck it up and give it my all because it pays the bills. No matter how angry, how spiteful I may be about it, I do not let it seep through in my work. I do not do something I love at all, but I do not use that as an excuse to be a jerk to my customers. And it's hard not to! But we all have to do things we hate, sometimes things that are difficult for us, so that we can do things we love. I could have sworn that I made that point earlier, too, but I'm not seeing it now, so I guess not. Maybe I'm just an old-fashioned guy, but that's my take on it.

To me, he had a lame argument, because there I saw no traces of thought in it whatsoever, just an opinion without any sort of logical basis. I do not see how it is "not calm" to call it a lame argument under those conditions. I am not saying it to be mean, I'm saying it to be truthful and assert my stance on it, and to possibly make him realize that he needs to put thought behind his empty words. If I WERE angry, or not calm, then there would be pedantic namecalling, and probably some ####'s, or I'd realize that's just silly and ignore the thread. The truth hurts, sometimes, but I don' t sugarcoat things to protect people's feelings, sometimes they need them hurt to fix themselves, 'cause lord knows I have. I'm thankful for my friends who are blunt with me and point out when I'm being an idiot or a jerk and need to think things through, cause it usually helps me take a step back and take an objective look at things instead of letting my own feelings and emotions cloud my judgment. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be allowed opinions, but I do believe that oftentimes the opinions and conclusions we draw are based on the wrong, or not enough, information.

Anyway, I may have screwed something up there, but that's my take on things.

@PainKilleR-[CE]

Honestly, I'll be content when the community in general actually gives English dubs a chance before disregarding them. That will likely never happen, especially with UNDUBS popping up all over the place, but here's hoping. But until then though, yes, I think people SHOULD be forced to listen to the English dubbing because otherwise they're not even going to give it a shot. I can't count the number of times I've had a few close friends listen to like, 3 or 4 lines in the English, think they've "given it a fair chance", and then immediately switch it to a language that they can't really tell if it's even good or not. That's just silly.

[Olethros]

A few posts up, Iris pretty much said everything I was intending to. So instead, I'll just say: Iris is awesome with a big pile of bonus points for referencing the straw man. :)

[Clephas]

@ Hitoshura

What you are talking about is forcing your personal ideals on other people, Hito. It's not that I don't understand where you are coming from in a distant sort of way, the same way I understand why someone would enjoy drinking coffee, while I think it tastes like dirty dishwater. Despite your persistent arguments that other people's don't have a logical basis, the same is easily said for you, as the very fact that you deny other people's arguments so vehemently tells everyone that you are thinking entirely from an emotional and ideological standpoint.

The problem Hito, is that I have yet to hear you present a practical argument, rather than an emotional one, of why dual audio is such a no-no. Note that I don't argue for only Japanese voices. I wouldn't do that to all those people that love their dubs or dislike listening to voices in other languages. And in any case, it wouldn't be a practical idea, anyway from a marketing point of view.

However, by promoting denying people the right to even have the possibility of the original voice-overs, you are presenting an argument equivalent to a bakery giving you a free cake along with the one you ordered and choosing to toss the free one in the garbage can because you prefer the one you ordered. I am not by any means promoting keeping the Japanese voices to the detriment - and by detriment I mean leaving lines unvoiced because of retaining the original voice overs - of the English voice track. I mean that if they have the space, there is no reason not to leave it in, other than a petty ideological argument that holds no real water due to its entirely unpractical nature.

My singular difficulty with you and your supporters is that you have yet to present me or the others with a practical response to our 'why not?' I'm not interested in the least in converting other people. I just dislike it when people present their arguments as being logical when they are, in fact, merely a product of their emotions and personal ideals.

[Zacewing]

back when voltron/go lion first came out to the US (they say on a special feature), they translated the series based on what they saw mostly(if there was any translating done), not by what was really being said. they even edited the series so that it would be more appealing to the US, by taking out any asian references like chop sticks or japanese symbols that would show up.

thinking back at that.. perhaps localization companies should go back to doing that then, since it wouldn't make a difference for people who just want english voices.
as we all stated, it's not like we can really compare the translation to what really being said.
so why have good exact translations? just look at what's going on and make some lines for it.

Now you're just setting up a straw man. The desire to have localization that does more than offer a direct, word-for-word translation does not equate to the desire to just have some guy with a notepad watch an episode and make crap up.

Localization is an art, not a science. The art bit comes into the fact that you have to take those direct, literal translations and find a way to render it in the language you're going into that is natural while still capturing the essence of the original, which is in fact quite a bit more complex than "look at what's going on and make some lines for it."

I'm fairly sure that most of those in this thread saying they'd prefer English dubs for their games aren't doing so because they don't give a damn about what's really going on, but rather because they want it presented in a language they understand, with idioms that make more sense for them culturally and puns they can be expected to understand. I used to work with a manga scanlation group, and some of those puns don't translate easily, but we opted to spend a while coming up with something that sounded better in English while keeping the same spirit -- not because we didn't care about the Japanese pun, but because localization is not just about being literal, but being accessible.

And hell, I like to play my games with English dubs so I can walk across the room and retrieve my popcorn from the microwave during a cutscene without worrying about missing what somebody just said because the countertop is just high enough to obscure a subtitle. There are plenty of reasons someone might want an English dub that have absolutely nothing to do with not caring about having the most ~*~true to the original~*~ experience possible.

Couldn't have said it better. No one here is saying "ZOMG ENGLISH VOICES ONRY JPN VOICES SUCK".

Some companies do try to cater games towards a US audience, though. Some of them have even translated Japanese songs into English (i.e. Namco Bandai, Square-Enix).

[Manly Biceps]

A few posts up, Iris pretty much said everything I was intending to. So instead, I'll just say: Iris is awesome with a big pile of bonus points for referencing the straw man. :)

One of these days, I'm going to made a video game that has some straw men in a field, and if you try and attack them, the straw man will KICK YOUR ASS. :)

[Olethros]

My singular difficulty with you and your supporters is that you have yet to present me or the others with a practical response to our 'why not?' I'm not interested in the least in converting other people. I just dislike it when people present their arguments as being logical when they are, in fact, merely a product of their emotions and personal ideals.

I'll leave the rest of the post to Hito since it's directed at him, but I feel compelled to respond to at least this part.

My assumption is that you're alluding to me in this part. If that's incorrect, then please ignore this and move on.

I make it a point to be as logical as possible in everything I do, not just silly internet debates. I therefore take this accusation quite seriously. If you are, in fact, including me within your blanket statement then I'd like to kindly and politely ask you to point out exactly where I've been illogical. Thanks.

[Manly Biceps]

I make it a point to be as logical as possible in everything I do, not just silly internet debates. I therefore take this accusation quite seriously. If you are, in fact, including me within your blanket statement then I'd like to kindly and politely ask you to point out exactly where I've been illogical. Thanks.

You are you, yet you have a representation of yourself as Captain Jean-Luc Picard of the U-S-S En-ter-prise.

This is highly illogical. :)

[Olethros]

OK, I give. I have absolutely no come back for that! :D

[Manly Biceps]

It's not really a comeback, but you could have posted the link to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYNUjqYxnMc

:)

[Olethros]

That's awesome. I've not seen that before either. You're putting me to shame here, good sir.

[PainKilleR-[CE]]

@PainKilleR-[CE]

Honestly, I'll be content when the community in general actually gives English dubs a chance before disregarding them. That will likely never happen, especially with UNDUBS popping up all over the place, but here's hoping. But until then though, yes, I think people SHOULD be forced to listen to the English dubbing because otherwise they're not even going to give it a shot. I can't count the number of times I've had a few close friends listen to like, 3 or 4 lines in the English, think they've "given it a fair chance", and then immediately switch it to a language that they can't really tell if it's even good or not. That's just silly.

We've already been forced to listen to the English dubs for years. Since they started putting voice acting in games, they've been dubbing them in English. It's a relatively recent phenomenon that publishers have given us the option of language choice. It's also something only a small number of publishers do, so there are far more games available that force people to use the English dub or import than there are that allow people the choice or (even more rarely) force a North American audience to listen to the Japanese language.

[Iris]

One of these days, I'm going to made a video game that has some straw men in a field, and if you try and attack them, the straw man will KICK YOUR ASS. :)

Day one. \o/

[Einherjar]

I prefer undubs only because their english counterpart are just damn horrible. But that doesn't mean I hate dubs. Kingdom hearts has awesome dubs, even surpassing the orignal, imo. Riviera GBA was pretty sweet too and Ledah is just pure awesome (too bad the psp port VAs really blow). All that being said, I think localizers should worry more on improving VA quality rather than trying to put two languages in. In the NA recently, 99% of the Protagonist in games are voiced by Yuri Lowenthal, and it's sickening because he sounded pretty much exactly the same, and it really kills the character. While on other hand in Japan, there are a much larger number of Voice Actors, with the ability to change the way they speak for different characters, enough to fool the audience.

[Clephas]

I prefer undubs only because their english counterpart are just damn horrible. But that doesn't mean I hate dubs. Kingdom hearts has awesome dubs, even surpassing the orignal, imo. Riviera GBA was pretty sweet too and Ledah is just pure awesome (too bad the psp port VAs really blow). All that being said, I think localizers should worry more on improving VA quality rather than trying to put two languages in. In the NA recently, 99% of the Protagonist in games are voiced by Yuri Lowenthal, and it's sickening because he sounded pretty much exactly the same, and it really kills the character. While on other hand in Japan, there are a much larger number of Voice Actors, with the ability to change the way they speak for different characters, enough to fool the audience.

Ooh... I don't think I could have designed a post more readily to re-start the hatefest in here. Generally, its exaggerations like this that create the problems. English VA's, as I myself have said before (even given that I prefer the original voice overs) have come a long way since the days when we could seriously say that they can't even hold a candle to the Japanese ones. That isn't to say they are completely on par with the Japanese VA community, but the existing English VAs have reached a level of quality that matches that of most Japanese VAs, even if there is a lower quantity. Part of the problem is that companies tend to use established ones and don't actively hunt new ones very often.

Generally speaking, its rare that I allow a voice to become the life of a character in my mind. When I think of characters like Yuri - who was excellently acted by the way - I think of his ruthless vigilantism and his hatred for injustice rather than what his voice sounded like.

From what I can see, getting your foot in the door as a voice actor is a daunting task, even if it is your dream. It isn't like I've ever seen an advertisement seeking would-be voice actors... have you?

[Einherjar]

All I'm trying to say is that dual languages or original language isn't the solution to things. When I say I prefer undubs, I meant that I generally seek undubs ONLY when I can't stand the dubs in a game (which is probably why it gets undubbed in the first place). I might have been a bit unclear here and there (sorry about that), but this is mostly what I'm trying to say.

Part of the problem is that companies tend to use established ones and don't actively hunt new ones very often.

Exactly. the companies need some more effort in hunting down new voice talents. English VA indeed came a long way, but inability to find an VA that matches the character is almost as bad as getting a bad one. That's not to say that many companies still hires incompetent/inexperienced voice actors nowadays (we can all agree on this, I think). I know Voice Acting isn't easy, and that's all the more reason why it still needs much improvement for the people in NA.

[Clephas]

You are missing something, Einherjar. In many cases, there is no choice but to hire inexperienced VAs. Every VA has to start somewhere, and as far as I can tell there aren't any voice training classes specifically for VAs here like there are in Japan, so there is no apparent established route to obtain new VAs... This makes it hard to impossible for companies to obtain trained but inexperienced VAs over here, meaning that there is a need to use established ones... or completely untrained amateurs.

[nicholai441]

an idea that i came up with a while back was if US and JPN companies were to find VAs that synced vocally to each other. so then you'd have two people who play the same character sound the same for that character.

i never said this idea was a good one. and considering the size of japan to america (and canada) it would be nearly impossible to do this (there's also the amount of time and money factors involved for both the companies and the actors)

if the above is not understandable: have a US VA that sounds almost identically similar to the japanese VA and assign them to each other, whatever one does the other will do... vocally.

also dual audio option has been in game for a very long time, since early PS2 at least. so it's not a very recent thing.
also even today there can still be the issue of not enough room on the disc for language option because as we know we're not still in the 8-bit era anymore. graphics are sharp which mean they take up more room, stories (RPGs) can take longer taking up more room, adding for more music in OSTs which, once again, take up more room.
so in the end even though the disc size are bigger, it just have the developers more room to expand the games, in every way. perhaps alot of times the thought of a language option is put on the back burner too.

and no, i'm not switching my argument. this is just something i come to realize.

for proof of what i mean with graphics, look at something like... well the entire FF series. and look at the trailers of the new ones.
not just the characters, but the backgrounds, the effects, everything.
there's more detail in the game to say something like FFXII. true a trailer doesn't show everything, just the good parts but it's something.

so many times the language options just won't fit.
but it does beg the question of "if it can fit then why not?"

but as it's stated, the counter question of the debate is: "if it can fit then why have it, since we don't need it?"


it's interesting, one thing i've said was vocal tones and reactions. i have an example of that now..
tenchu: when ayame dies in english it's a "uh.. mm... uh..." or something like that. and when she dies in Japanese it's merely "AAhhhhhh!"
see, it's the differences in things like that to the reason i want dual audio. it's a small thing but it's fun to compare those things.

[Einherjar]

You are missing something, Einherjar. In many cases, there is no choice but to hire inexperienced VAs. Every VA has to start somewhere, and as far as I can tell there aren't any voice training classes specifically for VAs here like there are in Japan, so there is no apparent established route to obtain new VAs... This makes it hard to impossible for companies to obtain trained but inexperienced VAs over here, meaning that there is a need to use established ones... or completely untrained amateurs.

There's something called an audition (and I don't believe that everybody in the audition are drama queens). As far as everything goes, I don't believe it's that issue that lead to to the horrible quality of SOME dubs, but rather the time and effort they spent in that section (and rewriting scripts to fit the english va better). Yes, there are no VA classes, but there COULD be. Which is exactly why I said there needs to be more work. I'm not complaining about the quality, but I'm just saying that Dual/original language ISN'T the solution to things.

Also, you don't have to apologize Clephas, but at least let me know that you have misunderstood, and now knows that I don't hate dubs and complain that every dub is bad, and I only get undubs if the dub is so bad that a puppy dies everytime it's played, because I'm still afraid that my explanation isn't clear enough.

[Dark Warrior]

No need to find Japanese VAs, because the game already has ones, just keep it, and find American VAs if you wish.
And for the audition Einherjar talked about, it's a good idea, when anyone come for it, let they choose the character they will use their voice for (just forget about the word), and then if they're good, hire them for that character, if not, the director himself could give them a different character depend on their voice. This mean that Atlus could find more VAs for future games, and more people will have a job they like.
Dual language is for if you want to see if the Americans VAs are good enough, and Japanese voice is we like the voice of Japanese and the Original VAs of the character.

[Zacewing]

Sometimes finding a voice actor that matches the JPN voice isn't always a good thing. *coughlloydintos2cough*

[deku2106]

What a coincidence, I was just raging about that with someone else. Lloyd's Japanese voice is... Ugh. Though my main exposure to the new guy was in Radiant Mythology. Not a fan of him, either. They've changed most of them from what I've heard. Is that right?

[Foobar]

I find it interesting that people go on and on about actors, but not directors, audio production, producers and such. People act like this is all supposed to be done in theatre/Hollywood style, but if they knew anything, they'd realize these other people have a large impact on the performance of the actor, not to mention the writers and localization team before we even get to the actor's interpetation.

Example: People hate Tidus in FFX and the rationale is that he's poorly acted. I'm not convinced that's ever been the case, especially after playing Dissidia. I think Tidus is supposed be a bit of a spaz because of the frustrations he holds. So he's written a bit differently from the characters that might try to internalize the same frustrations. Not everyone deals with frustration in the same way, after all.

I do think, however, that FFX was where Square was really first getting into dubbing games and doing production and direction for dubs. There's no denying the American voice-over approach is commonly done with actors recording their performances separately, for example.

I think most actors are used to dealing with this, though. Some of the awkwardness just comes from the production side and how much they were willing to put into it.

That said, I'm all for Japanese language as an option where there's enough room for the format to support it. That's the other thing - format. Blu-Ray and DVD hold that potential and it falls on the developer to take advantage provided they have the room to spare.

Some people talk big about format size and, really, I've rarely ever seen a game that maxed out the disc. Heck, just look at some of your favorite PSX games on PSN for reference. While it might not be totally accurate due to some compression, some of those games didn't even fill out a whole CD and probably could have and japanese language for the little voicework there was.

[Superkenon]

Sometimes finding a voice actor that matches the JPN voice isn't always a good thing. *coughlloydintos2cough*

Lloyd wasn't so bad. I thought the biggest tragedy of ToS 2 was Zelos' new voice. It just sounded lame to me in comparison to Shiloh Strong's performance.

Anyway, that's a very good point you make. Having a voice that sounds similar to the original isn't necessarily the key to success. Japanese and English are, obviously, very different languages... so naturally some roles call for decidedly different types of voices.

In Disgaea 3... Mao's VA (the great Vic Mignogna) is clearly completely different from his japanese counterpart, but that doesn't stop it from being one of the most entertaining dubs I've heard in awhile. But if they tried to make Mao sound like he does in the original audio, I know it would've been annoying to listen to. And it's not because I don't enjoy Hiromi Hirata's performance - I do, by the way - it's because that kind of voice just doesn't work nearly as well in english as it does in japanese.

Of course, this doesn't mean that it's always a good thing to have a completely different voice. Sometimes it's perfectly fine - perhaps even better - to stay close to the original. It's another one of those calls the translators have to make when picking their talent, I guess.

[Zacewing]

I don't think Tidus is poorly acted at all.

I wouldn't mind Japanese voices. It's definitely not a necessity, but if there's enough space on the game's disc then I don't see why they can't include it.

[nicholai441]

Sometimes finding a voice actor that matches the JPN voice isn't always a good thing. *coughlloydintos2cough*

Lloyd wasn't so bad. I thought the biggest tragedy of ToS 2 was Zelos' new voice. It just sounded lame to me in comparison to Shiloh Strong's performance.



just saying that, that's one of the reasons i go with japanese vocals at times. as i said when i brought it up, i know that the changing of VAs for a character is also done in japanese audio at times, but it doesn't seem as often.

[Superkenon]

Yeah, that's because voice acting really isn't taken very seriously here, currently. Most folks, even fans of dubs, can't even name the talent behind their characters. Meanwhile in Japan, seiyuus are basically as famous as our movie actors.

The chilling truth is, around these parts there's not much pressure for companies to keep their characters' voices consistent, because... the mainstream frankly doesn't care that much. If it's cheaper for the production to just find a different actor, they'll do that.

[NullPointer]

Often the reason a studio changes VAs is because the VA demands more money for the next season or whatever, and when they don't get it, the VA will quit the role.

In Japan, if you decide you want to quit a role half way through a production, you are pretty much guaranteed to never VA anything again. Japanese won't put up with that kinda crap. You're likely to be blacklisted and no studio will want to deal with you.

[Zacewing]

Pretty much what Null said.

A prime example is ToS2. The reason why the vast majority of the voice actors changed was because, iirc, Nintendo funded the localization for Symphonia, and that's why they could afford VA's like Scott Menville and Kari Wahlgren. They couldn't hire them back again for ToS2 because they wanted too much money.

[nicholai441]

i was told by an actor who VAed an anime movie and a game, that it is really hard work, like how with anime you have to work around the video so there's no room to adlib and such. he felt that it didn't pay enough for the difficulty of the work. so he's not planning to do it again. (something around those lines)

i'll leave the actor nameless.

but it makes me wonder then, if it is so much work then what is it that keeps the big time (and not so big time) VAs coming back to it? it can't be the only line of work they could find.
i'm guessing it's because they enjoy it? not just the money, but everything about it.

[DamageCity]

i'll leave the actor nameless.


why? why?

[Superkenon]

Often the reason a studio changes VAs is because the VA demands more money for the next season or whatever, and when they don't get it, the VA will quit the role.

In Japan, if you decide you want to quit a role half way through a production, you are pretty much guaranteed to never VA anything again. Japanese won't put up with that kinda crap. You're likely to be blacklisted and no studio will want to deal with you.

In Japan though, voice actors get much better treatment to begin with, if not in money then certainly in fame and notoriety, as well as various other perks and incentives. Here, our voice actors don't get much besides that paycheck, and as I understand it it's not even that much, though I know it differs. I'm hoping the situation will improve for our local artists, in any case.

You really only see actors getting lost between video games these days, however. Anime efforts do a better job of keeping their people (in fact, I can't even think of any dubs in recent memory where actors have changed), since obviously there's a bit more priority for them there. I think this is strictly an issue with the video game industry right now... probably because they don't pay as much, I imagine.

[nicholai441]

i'll leave the actor nameless.


why? why?

so that no one thinks badly of 'em and out of respect for the actor



In Japan though, voice actors get much better treatment to begin with, if not in money then certainly in fame and notoriety, as well as various other perks and incentives. Here, our voice actors don't get much besides that paycheck, and as I understand it it's not even that much, though I know it differs. I'm hoping the situation will improve for our local artists, in any case.

You really only see actors getting lost between video games these days, however. Anime efforts do a better job of keeping their people (in fact, I can't even think of any dubs in recent memory where actors have changed), since obviously there's a bit more priority for them there. I think this is strictly an issue with the video game industry right now... probably because they don't pay as much, I imagine.

the DB series went through a bunch of VAs but that might have been (atleast in part) to the change in ownership. tenchi had a change in cast i think at one point.

i guess there are some american VAs that get the same benefits as the japanese VAs.
and those might be the ones who are willing to do more seasons and such.

[Hamel]

Often the reason a studio changes VAs is because the VA demands more money for the next season or whatever, and when they don't get it, the VA will quit the role.

In Japan, if you decide you want to quit a role half way through a production, you are pretty much guaranteed to never VA anything again. Japanese won't put up with that kinda crap. You're likely to be blacklisted and no studio will want to deal with you.

In Japan though, voice actors get much better treatment to begin with, if not in money then certainly in fame and notoriety, as well as various other perks and incentives. Here, our voice actors don't get much besides that paycheck, and as I understand it it's not even that much, though I know it differs. I'm hoping the situation will improve for our local artists, in any case.


Actully a lot of Japanese VAs do other jobs (mostly as singers) to get more money because being a VA is not that great there eiter

[DamageCity]

i'll leave the actor nameless.


why? why?

so that no one thinks badly of 'em and out of respect for the actor
.

If he said it to you, obviously he isn't scared of what people think. Does he really need you to protect his opinions?

[Crow T. Robot]

Often the reason a studio changes VAs is because the VA demands more money for the next season or whatever, and when they don't get it, the VA will quit the role.

In Japan, if you decide you want to quit a role half way through a production, you are pretty much guaranteed to never VA anything again. Japanese won't put up with that kinda crap. You're likely to be blacklisted and no studio will want to deal with you.
haha wow I wonder if it's really that difficult though, a couple friends of mine said I should go into voice acting. I honestly wouldn't mind though, it'd pay better then what I'm getting paid now.

[Manly Biceps]

haha wow I wonder if it's really that difficult though, a couple friends of mine said I should go into voice acting. I honestly wouldn't mind though, it'd pay better then what I'm getting paid now.

It's difficult. It's a lot rougher than it seems. Especially if you've never done any kind of stage performance before.

(Yes, this is from personal experience.)

[Olethros]

haha wow I wonder if it's really that difficult though, a couple friends of mine said I should go into voice acting. I honestly wouldn't mind though, it'd pay better then what I'm getting paid now.

It's difficult. It's a lot rougher than it seems. Especially if you've never done any kind of stage performance before.

(Yes, this is from personal experience.)

LOL. Are you talking about what I think you're talking about, gobli? :p

[Xelloss]

If FFXIII does not include the jp audio despite the NA release being delayed for months, I certainly will not be buying it.

If you like JRPGS, have a decent PC rig and wish to know why I frown on FFXIII - go grab the Last Remnant. Square was kind enough to include dual audio on the PC version of that title... which is why I ended up breaking down and buying it.

Good game btw, and much better in jp. Many of the characters are MUCH less annoying, even somewhat likable. Square does terrible english dubs IMO.

I have seen to many terrible dubs over the years to not be biased against them in general, though I occasionally give them a shot, usually to my extreme dissapointment.

As for the argument that if you are not fluent in jp, you should treasure and appreciate the english dub - well, I wholeheartedly disagree. So what if I miss language subtleties in the jp audio? The point is, the the original voicing provides the intended tone , timbre and general conveyance. TBH, the jp gets translated into english in my head - according to what the subtitles say. I dont really "see" the subs, though I do read them.

This will make more sense to other people who are the same (majority of sub-preferring folk in my experience), and those who read lots of books. Its really similar I think, as far as what happens in my brain, as to when I read a book. When reading a book, you obviously read the letters, but your brain translates those letters into sights and sounds and events.

When I watch subtitled games/anime/movies , my brain translates the subtitles into english voices, except with the sound and inflection of the original provided VA. Hence, subtitled is almost always better than dubbed, because I do not consider reading subtitles an inconvenience in the slightest.

I understand that not everyone likes subtitles, and that is fine. I dont think Atlus or anyone else should stop dubbing. But, I do prefer subs on foreign media to the point where it definitely affects my purchasing. We might be a minority, but we are here... so, why not try to make everyone happy when possible?

Dual audio for the win.

[Manly Biceps]

LOL. Are you talking about what I think you're talking about, gobli? :p

That's not me. Though, you've heard A.R.A.M. by that point. :)

(Now you're going to go back and play just to see if you can find him, aren't you?)

[Manly Biceps]

We might be a minority, but we are here... so, why not try to make everyone happy when possible?

I made a post about why basically 90% of what's been said in this thread is a moot point, but I feel compelled to point out that "when possible" is a far smaller percentage of the time than you think it is.

[Olethros]

LOL. Are you talking about what I think you're talking about, gobli? :p

That's not me. Though, you've heard A.R.A.M. by that point. :)

(Now you're going to go back and play just to see if you can find him, aren't you?)

I just might, but would that be such a bad thing? :)

As for the debate at hand, I think I've said everything I have to say about it at least two times over at this point. While it's certainly a possibility that I'll go back on this statement, for now I think I'm dropping out.

[Xelloss]

We might be a minority, but we are here... so, why not try to make everyone happy when possible?

I made a post about why basically 90% of what's been said in this thread is a moot point, but I feel compelled to point out that "when possible" is a far smaller percentage of the time than you think it is.

Nah, I understand why in many cases it is not possible. This is why I am not hating on you, or anyone else. I bought P3 and P4 for example. I was mostly responding to some posters in this thread, who were hating on those who prefer jp audio.

Though at the end of the day, it would still be nice if the originators of the games cared about, and planned for eventual dual audio thus making it possible for you to localize in dual audio without issue. I also know that this hope will likely be in vain, unless foreign localization at some point becomes important enough to said producers of media to have their localization partners on board from day one of production.

Which brings me back to Square, they know they will be localizing their products from the get-go, and expect them to be big hits. So there is not much reason to refrain from griping at them. Hopefully Atlus USA tells Atlus JP that dual audio would be nice, and someday they ( Atlus JP ) will care enough to plan for it.... but yeah I am not holding my breath ;)

[Hamel]

If FFXIII does not include the jp audio despite the NA release being delayed for months, I certainly will not be buying it.



That's the most idiotic reason for not buying a game

[Clephas]

That's true. A much better reason not to buy FFXIII would be that Squeenix hasn't produced anything better than the upper end of mediocre in the last five years.

[Xelloss]

If FFXIII does not include the jp audio despite the NA release being delayed for months, I certainly will not be buying it.



That's the most idiotic reason for not buying a game

Yes, the fact that Square localizations are absolutely terrible is a completely idiotic reason to not buy a game :bs:


And the fact that as Clephas pointed out, Square doesnt do really great stuff anymore , ergo I am not anticipating FFXIII to be anything spectacular either. I didnt even finish FFXII, though it wasnt that bad - and the combat system was fairly decent IMO, there was just no hook or meat to it.

So yeah, unless they either put in jp audio so the story/cutscenes are more entertaining, or at least easier to bear, I am probably going to pass unless I hear something truly good about it.

[Superkenon]

That's the most idiotic reason for not buying a game

Before Disgaea 2 was released here, there was a rumor that the hiragana/katakana character fields would still be accessible in the naming screens, in addition to the english alphabet of course. For some reason, there was not only a bit of opposition to this, but some people even claimed they wouldn't buy the game if that were the case.

I never figured that one out.

[Olethros]

People often wonder why I have such little faith in humanity. Now I can point them in the direction of the last few posts here as prime exhibits of explaination.

[Hamel]

Not buying FFXIII because you don't think it's going to be any good (I don't think it will be good eiter don't get me wrong) is not the same thing as not buying it because of not having Japanese

[nicholai441]

i'm not too much of an FF fan to start with, the main thing that interest me in some of the games is the character designs. but it would be nice if they gave something that would make me want to play the games again (for a second time). i hope this time they at least have unlockable cutscene option or something that makes me feel forefiled when i finish the game. that's really my only complaint about FFXII. the cutscenes were good enough for me to want to watch them again.. just i wish i didn't have to play through the whole game just to watch them.

i recently read that even though i read that PS3 FFXIII was going to have dual audio (can't remember where i read it). Square never officially said that it would have dual audio.
although from the E3 video post earlier, it does seem they may plan from dual audio in future games.

[Vincent Alexander]

People often wonder why I have such little faith in humanity. Now I can point them in the direction of the last few posts here as prime exhibits of explaination.

You are much nicer than me to have even a "little" faith left.

[Einherjar]

People often wonder why I have such little faith in humanity. Now I can point them in the direction of the last few posts here as prime exhibits of explaination.

You are much nicer than me to have even a "little" faith left.

Well said.

[popmicro]

This argument is a Recurring Nightmare.

yea its very good view

[Kakizaki]

^I am going against my better judgment and only eliminating your sig (despite your similar posts in other areas). If I see that sig and link crop up again, you are gone.

[m3izero]

both knowing a little

[Zacewing]

If FFXIII does not include the jp audio despite the NA release being delayed for months, I certainly will not be buying it.

That's a really stupid reason to not buy the game.

If you like JRPGS, have a decent PC rig and wish to know why I frown on FFXIII - go grab the Last Remnant. Square was kind enough to include dual audio on the PC version of that title... which is why I ended up breaking down and buying it.

Again, buying a game only because it has an option for Japanese voices is a really stupid move. Not to mention The Last Remnant was a terrible game, imo.

Good game btw, and much better in jp. Many of the characters are MUCH less annoying, even somewhat likable. Square does terrible english dubs IMO.

Not all Square dubs are bad. The PSP Star Oceans were decent dubs, as was Star Ocean 4. FF12's dub was good, too. Dissidia's, while not fantastic, is still pretty good. In fact, I've yet to play a Square game with BAD dubbing. There may be a character here and there in a game that I may not like their voice *coughcapellcough*, but one bad voice doesn't ruin an entire game for me.

I have seen to many terrible dubs over the years to not be biased against them in general, though I occasionally give them a shot, usually to my extreme dissapointment.

And what are these terrible dubs you speak of? The only games I've played or heard the dubs from over the past 5 years or so that I've thought aren't very good are Chaos Wars (lol awful dub is awful), and Atelier Iris 3 (the actors themselves weren't bad, but NIS just made poor casting decisions. None of the voice actors suited the characters at all).

As for the argument that if you are not fluent in jp, you should treasure and appreciate the english dub - well, I wholeheartedly disagree. So what if I miss language subtleties in the jp audio? The point is, the the original voicing provides the intended tone , timbre and general conveyance. TBH, the jp gets translated into english in my head - according to what the subtitles say. I dont really "see" the subs, though I do read them.

But not everyone can "translate" the voices into english in their mind. I know I sure can't.

This will make more sense to other people who are the same (majority of sub-preferring folk in my experience), and those who read lots of books. Its really similar I think, as far as what happens in my brain, as to when I read a book. When reading a book, you obviously read the letters, but your brain translates those letters into sights and sounds and events

Comparing video games to books is like comparing apples to oranges. You're supposed to imagine the scenery when you're reading a book. Games have visuals and voices for you to see and hear. There's almost no imagination involved when you're playing a game.

When I watch subtitled games/anime/movies , my brain translates the subtitles into english voices, except with the sound and inflection of the original provided VA. Hence, subtitled is almost always better than dubbed, because I do not consider reading subtitles an inconvenience in the slightest.

Like I said before, not everyone can do that sort of thing.

I understand that not everyone likes subtitles, and that is fine. I dont think Atlus or anyone else should stop dubbing. But, I do prefer subs on foreign media to the point where it definitely affects my purchasing. We might be a minority, but we are here... so, why not try to make everyone happy when possible?

Dual audio for the win.

"When possible" isn't quite as often as you might think. Though current-gen consoles may have more space on their discs for dual-audio, Atlus hasn't done much for the current-gen systems yet.

[Ningyo]

I like having jp audio as a bonus in games, and I admit not being the greatest fan of english dubs. (Not at all actually, but I won't let that get in my way.)

However I have to butt in here and say that I like the dubs in FF very much :/ Actually it's a rare case of a series where I don't really care about getting jp audio, because I know I will most likely like the dub, since it seems Square usually does a good job there. But I guess that's not a very common viewpoint after reading this thread <_<;;

[Olethros]

People often wonder why I have such little faith in humanity. Now I can point them in the direction of the last few posts here as prime exhibits of explaination.

You are much nicer than me to have even a "little" faith left.

Where the hell have you been lately? This place isn't the same without you! :)

As for my little remaining faith, I'd have to say that people like you still exist so therefore there's still a glimmer of hope! :grouphug:

[Hitoshura]

@ Hitoshura

What you are talking about is forcing your personal ideals on other people, Hito. It's not that I don't understand where you are coming from in a distant sort of way, the same way I understand why someone would enjoy drinking coffee, while I think it tastes like dirty dishwater. Despite your persistent arguments that other people's don't have a logical basis, the same is easily said for you, as the very fact that you deny other people's arguments so vehemently tells everyone that you are thinking entirely from an emotional and ideological standpoint.

The problem Hito, is that I have yet to hear you present a practical argument, rather than an emotional one, of why dual audio is such a no-no. Note that I don't argue for only Japanese voices. I wouldn't do that to all those people that love their dubs or dislike listening to voices in other languages. And in any case, it wouldn't be a practical idea, anyway from a marketing point of view.

However, by promoting denying people the right to even have the possibility of the original voice-overs, you are presenting an argument equivalent to a bakery giving you a free cake along with the one you ordered and choosing to toss the free one in the garbage can because you prefer the one you ordered. I am not by any means promoting keeping the Japanese voices to the detriment - and by detriment I mean leaving lines unvoiced because of retaining the original voice overs - of the English voice track. I mean that if they have the space, there is no reason not to leave it in, other than a petty ideological argument that holds no real water due to its entirely unpractical nature.

My singular difficulty with you and your supporters is that you have yet to present me or the others with a practical response to our 'why not?' I'm not interested in the least in converting other people. I just dislike it when people present their arguments as being logical when they are, in fact, merely a product of their emotions and personal ideals.

I am doing no such thing. My point is, as I have stated several times before, is that the majority of anime/game fans I have encountered claim that English dubs are bad without actually hearing them, simply because yes, they were bad in the past. PAY ATTENTION. I am not saying "Everbody playing these games and watching these animes must bow down to the ethereal English Voice god!" I am saying "If you're not going to give it a chance, and then you're going to badmouth it, then you're a jerk, and you need to be forced to 'endure' the English voice acting so that you can see that it really isn't as bad as you think. How is this emotional? How is this not logical? I am yelling at the ignorant; not the informed. Clearly, there is a difference, and you missed it somewhere along the line. If you need to, go back and reread from where I said "PAY ATTENTION" until you truly comprehend my entirely logical and non-emotional reason as to why I believe Japanese voice acting currently has no place on American discs. Until the fanbase can stop being composed of such ignorant bandwagoners, then I would prefer that games be in English voice only, forcing these people blah blah I've said this a million times, I don't know how many more times I need to say it before it sinks in. To reiterate, I am not saying the entire fanbase needs to worship English dubs. I am saying that they need to at the least start giving English dubs a real chance instead of entirely dismissing them, or listening to four lines, claiming it's awful, and then immediately switching to the Japanese voices. Now, as for a purely logical reason, I'll also throw in that I have encountered quite a number of these insane purists who do not purchase games that do not have Japanese voice acting (see: our friend Xelloss or whatever) and instead pirate the UNDUB version. Now, since PS3s are considerably more difficult to mod than PS2s, UNDUBs don't really have an fanbase on it, to my knowledge. All the more reason to get this show on the road before UNDUBs become popular even on the PS3. So, force more purists to suck it up and deal with the English voices, there is a chance (that I am banking on) that since they are forced to actually give it a fair chance, they will enjoy it, they tell their buddies who were jerks and didn't buy the game that even though they are a purist, they still thought the English voices were pretty amazing and that English dubs just might actually be good, and there you go, more sales. Money saved on not having to pay the probably-more-expensive Japanese voice cast, pull in the same amount of money from the product, more profit from the product. Where is the emotion? Slight. Where is the logic? Everywhere.

By the way, guess what type of anime fan I started out to be?

A purist. I listened to my friend who claimed that the Slayers dub was just so awful and Lisa Ortiz was just the worst Lina Inverse ever and she was too bratty etc. etc. And so, I watched it in Japanese. It wasn't until I was forced to watch the English dub with a friend that I realized that the previous friend was just full of it and blindly biased towards the Japanese voices, and quickly disallowed myself from going down that path.

So there's your logic; in the long run, more profit. I hope you all enjoyed the pretty bold and italic formatting. I know I did. Now, don't put words in my mouth again. Forcing people to give something a shot =/= forcing them to like it, or forcing my own ideals on them. Also, your analogy is not a good one. Japanese voices are not free. Remember that the seiyuus are not in-house voice actors. I would figure it works like music; after all, that's why we didn't get ALIVE on the free DDS2 OST.

Also, nicholai, I'm 99% sure somewhere in this thread I linked to a video where Square-Enix flat out says there is not going to be any Japanese audio due to time constraints, and that they are going to also re-sync the lip movements to the English audio. 'Bout time.

[nicholai441]

@ Hitoshura

What you are talking about is forcing your personal ideals on other people, Hito. It's not that I don't understand where you are coming from in a distant sort of way, the same way I understand why someone would enjoy drinking coffee, while I think it tastes like dirty dishwater. Despite your persistent arguments that other people's don't have a logical basis, the same is easily said for you, as the very fact that you deny other people's arguments so vehemently tells everyone that you are thinking entirely from an emotional and ideological standpoint.

The problem Hito, is that I have yet to hear you present a practical argument, rather than an emotional one, of why dual audio is such a no-no. Note that I don't argue for only Japanese voices. I wouldn't do that to all those people that love their dubs or dislike listening to voices in other languages. And in any case, it wouldn't be a practical idea, anyway from a marketing point of view.

However, by promoting denying people the right to even have the possibility of the original voice-overs, you are presenting an argument equivalent to a bakery giving you a free cake along with the one you ordered and choosing to toss the free one in the garbage can because you prefer the one you ordered. I am not by any means promoting keeping the Japanese voices to the detriment - and by detriment I mean leaving lines unvoiced because of retaining the original voice overs - of the English voice track. I mean that if they have the space, there is no reason not to leave it in, other than a petty ideological argument that holds no real water due to its entirely unpractical nature.

My singular difficulty with you and your supporters is that you have yet to present me or the others with a practical response to our 'why not?' I'm not interested in the least in converting other people. I just dislike it when people present their arguments as being logical when they are, in fact, merely a product of their emotions and personal ideals.

I am doing no such thing. My point is, as I have stated several times before, is that the majority of anime/game fans I have encountered claim that English dubs are bad without actually hearing them, simply because yes, they were bad in the past. PAY ATTENTION. I am not saying "Everbody playing these games and watching these animes must bow down to the ethereal English Voice god!" I am saying "If you're not going to give it a chance, and then you're going to badmouth it, then you're a jerk, and you need to be forced to 'endure' the English voice acting so that you can see that it really isn't as bad as you think. How is this emotional? How is this not logical? I am yelling at the ignorant; not the informed. Clearly, there is a difference, and you missed it somewhere along the line. If you need to, go back and reread from where I said "PAY ATTENTION" until you truly comprehend my entirely logical and non-emotional reason as to why I believe Japanese voice acting currently has no place on American discs. Until the fanbase can stop being composed of such ignorant bandwagoners, then I would prefer that games be in English voice only, forcing these people blah blah I've said this a million times, I don't know how many more times I need to say it before it sinks in. To reiterate, I am not saying the entire fanbase needs to worship English dubs. I am saying that they need to at the least start giving English dubs a real chance instead of entirely dismissing them, or listening to four lines, claiming it's awful, and then immediately switching to the Japanese voices. Now, as for a purely logical reason, I'll also throw in that I have encountered quite a number of these insane purists who do not purchase games that do not have Japanese voice acting (see: our friend Xelloss or whatever) and instead pirate the UNDUB version. Now, since PS3s are considerably more difficult to mod than PS2s, UNDUBs don't really have an fanbase on it, to my knowledge. All the more reason to get this show on the road before UNDUBs become popular even on the PS3. So, force more purists to suck it up and deal with the English voices, there is a chance (that I am banking on) that since they are forced to actually give it a fair chance, they will enjoy it, they tell their buddies who were jerks and didn't buy the game that even though they are a purist, they still thought the English voices were pretty amazing and that English dubs just might actually be good, and there you go, more sales. Money saved on not having to pay the probably-more-expensive Japanese voice cast, pull in the same amount of money from the product, more profit from the product. Where is the emotion? Slight. Where is the logic? Everywhere.

By the way, guess what type of anime fan I started out to be?

A purist. I listened to my friend who claimed that the Slayers dub was just so awful and Lisa Ortiz was just the worst Lina Inverse ever and she was too bratty etc. etc. And so, I watched it in Japanese. It wasn't until I was forced to watch the English dub with a friend that I realized that the previous friend was just full of it and blindly biased towards the Japanese voices, and quickly disallowed myself from going down that path.

So there's your logic; in the long run, more profit. I hope you all enjoyed the pretty bold and italic formatting. I know I did. Now, don't put words in my mouth again. Forcing people to give something a shot =/= forcing them to like it, or forcing my own ideals on them. Also, your analogy is not a good one. Japanese voices are not free. Remember that the seiyuus are not in-house voice actors. I would figure it works like music; after all, that's why we didn't get ALIVE on the free DDS2 OST.

Also, nicholai, I'm 99% sure somewhere in this thread I linked to a video where Square-Enix flat out says there is not going to be any Japanese audio due to time constraints, and that they are going to also re-sync the lip movements to the English audio. 'Bout time.

wow, so much to respond about...

first i will say i saw the video and i did comment about it.

second... the PS3 doesn't need modding because it's universal in the first place so the "purist" can still go out and get their games imported. same goes for the PSP.

also there was a post i made about how sometimes knowing who voices a character in english take out of a game for me and your response was: "This is a bit silly. You shouldn't hold the English dubbing accountable for a problem in your own head."
and now (to me at least) it seems you hate people who ask for japanese audio, because one of your friends steered you to start off "a purist" only to find out the english audio wasn't so bad for an anime... which then made you quickly not want to go down "that path".
hmm... so you hate "purist" because you were one and now your not.
i quote and edit: "This is a bit silly. You shouldn't hold the English dubbing accountable for a problem in your own head." to "This is a bit silly. You shouldn't hold "purist" accountable for a problem in your own head."

in other words... just because the "purist" you know are one way. doesn't mean they all are. on tuesday i walked into a group of people (who were friends to a friend) that were talking in full japanese (and i don't mean the "adding -desu to everything they say" either). i didn't understand alot of it.. but from the minute(definition: very small) amount that i learned via friends, anime and games and the one semester of japanese i took.. i was able to understand a bit.

oh.. i just came up with a question. seeing Kamen Advent's icon being from one of the Kamen Rider series. it got me thinking...
for everyone who said they support english only, how many of them watch foreign programs (the live-action shows)?
i'm just wondering if they don't give it a try because of the fact it's in another language (even if it's subbed), if they don't.

i'm just wondering because at the moment i am thinking that most if not all the ones who support english only (for what ever reason -mainly the ones that say "if you understand one language who should watch/play it in that language"-) also don't watch foreign dramas and live-action movies and/or shows.
the point of this question (i figure to explain, because no one seems to catch on to semi changing valid things like this) is... are you "bias" enough yourselves to not be interested in anything unless it's dubbed/made in english?

[hickwarrior]

Just a quick question, but what's being biased? How do you know if someone is biased?

[Clephas]

Don't worry Hickwarrior, all of us in here are biased. Otherwise we wouldn't tear into each other like this.

[Olethros]

Clephas speaks the truth.

Also, @Nicholai: No, I do not watch any foreign televisions shows. There are also a nearly astronomical number of shows in English I do not watch either. There's too much to do in life to spend it staring at every single television show in existence, so for the very, very few that I do watch why the hell would I want to watch it in a language I don't understand? That would just be plain stupid, which is something I definitely am not.

[Hamel]

Clephas speaks the truth.

Also, @Nicholai: No, I do not watch any foreign televisions shows. There are also a nearly astronomical number of shows in English I do not watch either. There's too much to do in life to spend it staring at every single television show in existence, so for the very, very few that I do watch why the hell would I want to watch it in a language I don't understand? That would just be plain stupid, which is something I definitely am not.

If you ever seen a live action...anything dubbed
you will know why

[Superkenon]

Hitoshura, it's a mistake to think that all "purists" only watch the Japanese versions because they never gave english a chance. More often than not, these are people who first watched dubs, then found that they just liked hearing the Japanese audio better. There's nothing wrong with simply going with the option you prefer.

Of course, there are those who watch Japanese purely by insistence of their friends, and you're right that they ought to at least try the alternative (the same can be said for certain people at the opposite end of the argument, incidentally). But you shouldn't assume that they're all like you were. Basically what I'm saying is, plenty of these 'naughty purists' watch the Japanese versions because they genuinely prefer them over the localized version... and not just because of some blind faith. Maybe I'm overestimating them, but you're easily underestimating them.

In my case... I guess I'm just somewhere in the middle. I didn't care for the Slayers dub at all. If I told you that before I mentioned how much I adored the Kodocha dub, you'd probably have assumed I just don't give the dubs a proper chance. But clearly, I do. One's tastes are just a tricky thing. Can't really account for them.


I'd comment on Nicholai's post, but... actually, I'm not sure what his point was. Ho ho!


Olethros, I don't have anything against what you're saying, except for that part where you suggest that someone has to be stupid to watch anything in a foreign language. That's a little much.

[Hitoshura]

wow, so much to respond about...

first i will say i saw the video and i did comment about it.

second... the PS3 doesn't need modding because it's universal in the first place so the "purist" can still go out and get their games imported. same goes for the PSP.

Yes, they can import a game that they can hear in the language they want to... and play in a language they sure as hell can't read. That makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes:

also there was a post i made about how sometimes knowing who voices a character in english take out of a game for me and your response was: "This is a bit silly. You shouldn't hold the English dubbing accountable for a problem in your own head."
and now (to me at least) it seems you hate people who ask for japanese audio, because one of your friends steered you to start off "a purist" only to find out the english audio wasn't so bad for an anime... which then made you quickly not want to go down "that path".
hmm... so you hate "purist" because you were one and now your not.
i quote and edit: "This is a bit silly. You shouldn't hold the English dubbing accountable for a problem in your own head." to "This is a bit silly. You shouldn't hold "purist" accountable for a problem in your own head."

...

PHBBBBBBBBBBBAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You must be joking. I cannot possibly see such a ridiculous notion being serious. PAY ATTENTION: The fatal flaw in your argument is that you said specifically that knowing who voices a character in English takes away from a game. Where did I ever say, or even imply, that I had any sort of ill will towards my friend for starting me out as a purist? Hell, he's one of my three best friends to this day. If anything, I'm thankful, because he pushed me even more towards making my own decisions and opinions and basing them less on the opinions of others.

in other words... just because the "purist" you know are one way. doesn't mean they all are. on tuesday i walked into a group of people (who were friends to a friend) that were talking in full japanese (and i don't mean the "adding -desu to everything they say" either). i didn't understand alot of it.. but from the minute(definition: very small) amount that i learned via friends, anime and games and the one semester of japanese i took.. i was able to understand a bit.

I have known many, many, many purists. I have met them in real life, I have met them online, I have met them at anime conventions, and nearly every single one of them act "that one way", as in, don't even bother giving English dubs a chance, and roughly half of them are of the variety that won't purchase a game unless Japanese audio is selectable.

oh.. i just came up with a question. seeing Kamen Advent's icon being from one of the Kamen Rider series. it got me thinking...
for everyone who said they support english only, how many of them watch foreign programs (the live-action shows)?
i'm just wondering if they don't give it a try because of the fact it's in another language (even if it's subbed), if they don't.

i'm just wondering because at the moment i am thinking that most if not all the ones who support english only (for what ever reason -mainly the ones that say "if you understand one language who should watch/play it in that language"-) also don't watch foreign dramas and live-action movies and/or shows.
the point of this question (i figure to explain, because no one seems to catch on to semi changing valid things like this) is... are you "bias" enough yourselves to not be interested in anything unless it's dubbed/made in english?

Depends. If we're talking like, Riki-Oh, then yes, I want to watch that in English. "Oscar, you got a lotta guts!" If we're talking like, Nobuta wo Produce, or Gumiho, then yes, I would like to watch those in Japanese and Korean respectively. Why? Lip-syncing is a part of it, but it's mostly the fact that they're real people. They are not some anime character that has a predetermined voice from birth. They are, however, real people who have had their voices predetermined from birth.

[Olethros]

Olethros, I don't have anything against what you're saying, except for that part where you suggest that someone has to be stupid to watch anything in a foreign language. That's a little much.

See, I don't think it went far enough to prove my point. I'll put it into more visual terms so everyone can understand better. Let's say the number of TV shows in the world equals the amount of water in the Atlantic Ocean. Now, the number of shows I watch is equal to the size of an 8oz. drinking glass filled up from the ocean. Overall, that's an EXTREMELY small fraction of the total. Therefore, yes I do think it would be stupid to consume that miniscule amount in a manner that would be unintelligible.

[Superkenon]

That's all well and good for your case, since obviously it would be a silly idea to waste your Quaff o' the Day on a drink you don't enjoy. But as your tastes and perceptions are unique to yourself, you can't say that the same drink would be a foolish idea for everyone else, just because you don't care for it. That's what it seemed like you were saying, so I had issue with it. Apologies if I expanded the range of a comment intended only for yourself.

[Olethros]

It's my opinion that someone that would spend a significant portion of their time listening to a verbal communication tool that they cannot comprehend is not the most stellar example of intelligence we have to offer. I do not submit this as fact. It's my opinion and therefore, by arguments you yourself have brought forth previously, not subject to debate. If I believe it then it is truth for me, right?

Or, to put it all another way, my observations have lead me to ascertain that the majority of people who spend excessive amounts of free time on anime (in general, but even more specifically in a language they cannot comprehend) are NOT the same people making large and meanigful contributions to society as a whole.

[Hamel]

I think that people that don't attempt to watch anything in a language they don't understand right now are stupid
If I didn't attempt to watch/play stuff in English I wouldn't be a gamer and I wouldn't watch a lot of the stuff I like (nor would I live in the U.S. right now)
But I guess it seems that way for me as someone that came from a non-English speaking country and was able to learn a language I wasn't born into

Maybe Olethros is just too old and grumpy to attempt anything not in English?

[four_black_hearts]

QFT
...The majority of people who spend excessive amounts of free time on anime (in general, but even more specifically in a language they cannot comprehend) are NOT the same people making large and meanigful contributions to society as a whole.

[nicholai441]

Just a quick question, but what's being biased? How do you know if someone is biased?

definition for bias: predisposition; prejudice.
definition for prejudice: 1A preconceived opinion B bias; partiality. 2 determined.

from the definitions above, everyone seems to be in their own way. but we also have the neutrals.
i guess another way word i could have used to ask my question is: picky.
so i'd be asking are the people who are "english only" supporters just as picky about what they watch too?


Or, to put it all another way, my observations have lead me to ascertain that the majority of people who spend excessive amounts of free time on anime (in general, but even more specifically in a language they cannot comprehend) are NOT the same people making large and meanigful contributions to society as a whole.

would that include translators? i would think translators make a big contribution to community.

[Clephas]

Wow, now we are dropping back into stereotypes again. There are plenty of anime addicts that are functional members of society. The days when the majority of otakus were jobless shut-ins are long past, if they ever even existed, as such people by definition had to have the money to get their fix in the first place.

Though, anime is a lot like alcohol or cigarettes, once you get addicted it becomes a habit to indulge. As for watching subtitled anime... by definition an otaku is a person obsessed with anime, Japanese video games, or related items of either, so it would make perfect sense for them to be purists of one sort or another.

As for it being a language they don't understand... the number one most effective way to learn a language is to immerse yourself. Textbook learning only serves to provide a framework, like building a clay mold for a metal pot. It can't, by definition, produce a fluent speaker. Not that anime Japanese can be compared to conversational Japanese, as the language in anime tends to be used for effect and stereotypical phrasing and speech patterns are utilized like mad. However, there is no reason the obsessive type of people that spend that kind of time watching subtitled anime wouldn't pick up enough to comprehend with only occasional reference to the subtitles.

Actually, if I had a piece of advice for someone who really wanted to master the language, I'd suggest first taking a class to get the basic grammar and a decent vocabulary built up, then live in Japan for a few months, completely discarding whatever native tongue you happen to speak. That way, you'll be able to absorb the speech patterns at the most basic level of your consciousness... in other words gaining the ability to think in the language as naturally as you do your native one. At that point, a person can be called fluent.

As for Superkenon's words, I find them to be intelligent and well thought out. In the end, as I've said at least a dozen times before, this is all a matter of preference. I watched numerous dubs before I ever watched a subbed anime. Mostly because I started watching when DVD's didn't yet exist and VCRs had only recently become affordable for kids slowly saving their money. Not only that, I continued to watch dubs of various series that came out on TV for years... However, the fact remained that my preference was for the original language, simply because the voices sounded better at first and later because I went through a lot of trouble to master the language.

Part of the reason for my preference is probably because I can absorb a line of subtitles without a need to actually focus on them... and I'm aware a lot of people can't do that, so I guess it would seem pointless for some people to watch subtitles, since they would be focusing on the subs rather than the action. To people like that, it would be natural to be rabid about preferring dubs, since the dubs would provide a more pleasant experience for them.

However, as to the matter of decrying allowing the choice into the matter when it is feasible... I think that is going way too far. Like someone who goes into Starbucks and gets offended that there is hot cider on the menu. After all, when your friends take you to Starbucks and you are required by social obligation to go within, should you have to drink coffee when you hate it and an alternative is available?

[SickleCellAnemia]

Maybe Olethros is just too old and grumpy to attempt anything not in English?

You forgot to say bald, irritable, cranky, smelly and forgetful, lol.

But seriously, Olethros doesn't have time to learn another language, I mean, the guy has his own freakin' laboratory!!! Like this guy:
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.tvsquad.com/media/2006/10/dexterlababab.jpg

[DamageCity]

Wow, now we are dropping back into stereotypes again. There are plenty of anime addicts that are functional members of society. The days when the majority of otakus were jobless shut-ins are long past, if they ever even existed, as such people by definition had to have the money to get their fix in the first place.

Though, anime is a lot like alcohol or cigarettes, once you get addicted it becomes a habit to indulge. As for watching subtitled anime... by definition an otaku is a person obsessed with anime, Japanese video games, or related items of either, so it would make perfect sense for them to be purists of one sort or another.

As for it being a language they don't understand... the number one most effective way to learn a language is to immerse yourself. Textbook learning only serves to provide a framework, like building a clay mold for a metal pot. It can't, by definition, produce a fluent speaker. Not that anime Japanese can be compared to conversational Japanese, as the language in anime tends to be used for effect and stereotypical phrasing and speech patterns are utilized like mad. However, there is no reason the obsessive type of people that spend that kind of time watching subtitled anime wouldn't pick up enough to comprehend with only occasional reference to the subtitles.

Actually, if I had a piece of advice for someone who really wanted to master the language, I'd suggest first taking a class to get the basic grammar and a decent vocabulary built up, then live in Japan for a few months, completely discarding whatever native tongue you happen to speak. That way, you'll be able to absorb the speech patterns at the most basic level of your consciousness... in other words gaining the ability to think in the language as naturally as you do your native one. At that point, a person can be called fluent.

As for Superkenon's words, I find them to be intelligent and well thought out. In the end, as I've said at least a dozen times before, this is all a matter of preference. I watched numerous dubs before I ever watched a subbed anime. Mostly because I started watching when DVD's didn't yet exist and VCRs had only recently become affordable for kids slowly saving their money. Not only that, I continued to watch dubs of various series that came out on TV for years... However, the fact remained that my preference was for the original language, simply because the voices sounded better at first and later because I went through a lot of trouble to master the language.

Part of the reason for my preference is probably because I can absorb a line of subtitles without a need to actually focus on them... and I'm aware a lot of people can't do that, so I guess it would seem pointless for some people to watch subtitles, since they would be focusing on the subs rather than the action. To people like that, it would be natural to be rabid about preferring dubs, since the dubs would provide a more pleasant experience for them.

However, as to the matter of decrying allowing the choice into the matter when it is feasible... I think that is going way too far. Like someone who goes into Starbucks and gets offended that there is hot cider on the menu. After all, when your friends take you to Starbucks and you are required by social obligation to go within, should you have to drink coffee when you hate it and an alternative is available?


I lol'd

[Hitoshura]

However, as to the matter of decrying allowing the choice into the matter when it is feasible... I think that is going way too far. Like someone who goes into Starbucks and gets offended that there is hot cider on the menu. After all, when your friends take you to Starbucks and you are required by social obligation to go within, should you have to drink coffee when you hate it and an alternative is available?

The problem with this analogy is, once again, chances are if you know you hate hot cider, then you've actually TRIED it, and given it a fair chance, and same with coffee, as well as the point that things like hot cider and coffee don't really change over the years; English dubs have. My point is that most anime fans/gamers who prefer Japanese voices don't actually give the English voices a fair chance. And a fair chance is not listening to 4 lines and then yelling about how awful it is. That is why, as I have stated many times before, I feel that there should not be an option for Japanese voices yet. Maybe some many years down the road, but right now, no, because the English voice actors are trying their damnedest and doing an excellent job, while anime fans far too stuck in their ways of old refuse to give dubs a hair of a chance, much less a fair one. I do not wish for everyone to share my opinion that English dubs are awesome and far better than Japanese voiceovers; what I DO wish for is that everyone who DOES have an opinion on the matter has an informed and fair opinion. And sometimes, you have to force people to inform themselves. What do you think school is? How many of you went to school because you wanted to and not because you had to?

Also, to nicholai, no, I am not picky. I watch a lot of things (varietywise), and actually enjoy an absurd amount of things. I'm kind of torn lately because I keep rating things I watch a 10, and I'm thinking "This can't be right, I can't be watching this many amazing shows in a row." Also, what Olethros was talking about was SOCIETY, not "the community", and anime translation is not really a contribution to SOCIETY. Nice, yes, but on a far smaller level than SOCIETY.

[Clephas]

Nicholai, it would depend on what kind of translation job they are doing. Video game and movie translation, while a contribution to society in a roundabout sort of way - I'm a firm believer in the idea that well-written entertainment can expand the mind - isn't the kind of contribution that Olethros was thinking of. A diplomatic translator or one who translates history and literature would be more in the lines of what Olethros was thinking of. Translation as a general issue is more about self-edification than edification of others and society in general.

@Hito: As for an informed and fair opinion, I do believe that mine qualifies, it just doesn't agree with yours. In fact, I am even courteous enough to point out where your arguments happen to have merit, as well as where I believe mine have merit. Forcing people to inform themselves is not the job of entertainment, that's the job of public education. Not only that, its been repeatedly proven that forcing people to inform themselves only works if they have the intention to allow themselves to be forced in the first place.

Yes, I think that those who prefer dubs blindly and those who prefer subs blindly should at least look at the other once in a while, but I don't think they should always come over to my point of view. In fact, if they did I would be extremely disturbed. A world with only a single opinion is a singularly boring world.

To be quite frank, it'll be quite a while before the dual language option starts appearing in the majority of localized video games in the first place, and in most cases the very idea will probably be ignored due to technical annoyances. That and habitual behaviors are very much one of humanity's central flaws. I also think that your insistence that the individual efforts of English VA's make a difference in this issue is rather unnecessarily obstinate. Though I've said it three times before, all that matters is that the result is aesthetically pleasing to the player. I am NOT insulting the efforts of those individuals, but rather merely noting that their efforts are without any real relevance to the issue.

Perhaps it might sound callous to you to not consider the efforts of individuals to improve the quality of the work in their field, but to me, I am playing video games to be pleased aesthetically by the experience, not to evaluate the technical improvement of English voice acting. Understand that it is that every selfishness on the part of the consumer that gives those people their jobs in the first place, and it is ultimately irrelevant, except from the point of view of an individual's ego, that those efforts be appreciated.

There will never be a point in time when Japanese language as the only option becomes the norm, if that is what you are worrying about. Not only that, but I would probably be disturbed if it ever reached that point, because it would mean that the video game industry was in a true decline for that kind of cost-cutting to occur.

Edit: (Ugh, someone please tell me, am I a masochist to continue arguing with the same people over this over and over again?)

[DamageCity]

Edit: (Ugh, someone please tell me, am I a masochist to continue arguing with the same people over this over and over again?)

You have nothing better to do with your time.

[Ephidel]

The problem with this analogy is, once again, chances are if you know you hate hot cider, then you've actually TRIED it, and given it a fair chance, and same with coffee, as well as the point that things like hot cider and coffee don't really change over the years; English dubs have. My point is that most anime fans/gamers who prefer Japanese voices don't actually give the English voices a fair chance. And a fair chance is not listening to 4 lines and then yelling about how awful it is. That is why, as I have stated many times before, I feel that there should not be an option for Japanese voices yet. Maybe some many years down the road, but right now, no, because the English voice actors are trying their damnedest and doing an excellent job, while anime fans far too stuck in their ways of old refuse to give dubs a hair of a chance, much less a fair one. I do not wish for everyone to share my opinion that English dubs are awesome and far better than Japanese voiceovers; what I DO wish for is that everyone who DOES have an opinion on the matter has an informed and fair opinion. And sometimes, you have to force people to inform themselves. What do you think school is? How many of you went to school because you wanted to and not because you had to?

I've underlined the few statements in here I wanted to pick out, to differentiate from the bold and itallic you were already using.

You have had the chance to sample both the original and dubbed dialogue and have chosen which you preferred, be that the coffee or the cider or whatever other drink you want to associate subs and dubs with :P
You have your own reasons for your choices.

You then go on to state that you don't think that there should be an option for Japanese voices because people don't give the English dubs a fair chance.

This is, surely, completely at odds with your proclamation at the end there that you think everyone who has an opinion on this matter should have an informed and fair option.
After all, how can those people gain both an informed and fair opinion unless both options are available so they can fairly try both to inform themselves?

[Pixel]

Hi, I would just like to say thank you to Hito and Olethros for expressing a viewpoint I share. Also, thank you, Atlus, for continuing to dub your games.

[Hitoshura]

The problem with this analogy is, once again, chances are if you know you hate hot cider, then you've actually TRIED it, and given it a fair chance, and same with coffee, as well as the point that things like hot cider and coffee don't really change over the years; English dubs have. My point is that most anime fans/gamers who prefer Japanese voices don't actually give the English voices a fair chance. And a fair chance is not listening to 4 lines and then yelling about how awful it is. That is why, as I have stated many times before, I feel that there should not be an option for Japanese voices yet. Maybe some many years down the road, but right now, no, because the English voice actors are trying their damnedest and doing an excellent job, while anime fans far too stuck in their ways of old refuse to give dubs a hair of a chance, much less a fair one. I do not wish for everyone to share my opinion that English dubs are awesome and far better than Japanese voiceovers; what I DO wish for is that everyone who DOES have an opinion on the matter has an informed and fair opinion. And sometimes, you have to force people to inform themselves. What do you think school is? How many of you went to school because you wanted to and not because you had to?

I've underlined the few statements in here I wanted to pick out, to differentiate from the bold and itallic you were already using.

You have had the chance to sample both the original and dubbed dialogue and have chosen which you preferred, be that the coffee or the cider or whatever other drink you want to associate subs and dubs with :P
You have your own reasons for your choices.

You then go on to state that you don't think that there should be an option for Japanese voices because people don't give the English dubs a fair chance.

This is, surely, completely at odds with your proclamation at the end there that you think everyone who has an opinion on this matter should have an informed and fair option.
After all, how can those people gain both an informed and fair opinion unless both options are available so they can fairly try both to inform themselves?

When everyone can finally decide to give both options a fair chance, then, and only then, should both options be available. I thought I made that pretty clear.

[Superkenon]

I still think you assume that too many people haven't given both a fair chance. Most folks are smart enough to try things before deciding to dislike them... I think you'll find that it's actually a pretty small amount of people - on either side of the argument - who hold their opinions merely through ignorance.


It's my opinion that someone that would spend a significant portion of their time listening to a verbal communication tool that they cannot comprehend is not the most stellar example of intelligence we have to offer. I do not submit this as fact. It's my opinion and therefore, by arguments you yourself have brought forth previously, not subject to debate. If I believe it then it is truth for me, right?

One's preference is indeed one's personal truth, and shouldn't be debated. However, you're going beyond simply stating your own tastes, and slandering those who don't agree with you, which I think is just in bad form. Also, in a case where one's opinion is essentially "you're stupid," I don't think said person should be entitled to the immunity-or-whatever rule. After all, you shouldn't expect your viewpoint be respected when clearly you're disrespecting others. Nice one though.

That said, I'm alright with you. You remind me of my grandmother, to whom I certainly bear no ill will. Nice lady, just set in her ways. I must ask though, why does dabbling in a foreign language necessarily mean lacking in intelligence as a prerequisite? Personally, I don't really think it means anything one way or another as far as the brains go. But if it should mean anything, wouldn't it instead suggest a degree of advanced understanding to be able to watch, enjoy, and comprehend something in a language other than your own? I just fail to see why doing this has to make one an imbecile.


Or, to put it all another way, my observations have lead me to ascertain that the majority of people who spend excessive amounts of free time on anime (in general, but even more specifically in a language they cannot comprehend) are NOT the same people making large and meanigful contributions to society as a whole.

...Yes, definitely my grandmother. ;) Ho ho, I'm just kidding with you on that, of course. Maybe.

This is easily a gross generalization, however. The extreme nerds who go too far do exist of course, but only as a small, sad percentage of the overall base... as they would in anything besides anime. For example, I can bet you there are/were far more Star Trek shut-ins than Anime shut-ins (that, by the way, you can't blame on foreign languages, eh?). But as with most Trekkies, most anime fans lead completely normal and productive lives, and whether they watch dubs or subs makes no difference whatsoever.

[Olethros]

OK, so besides the fact that I'm old, cranky, bald, and spending too much time on evil experiments (You're the next guinea pig Sickle!)... :p

The point of my last post was to take my statement way up to the level of the absurd, thereby illustrating a point: opinions can be, and often are, WRONG! This whole notion of preference being a defense unto itself is silly. There are opinions, preferences, and especially beliefs that people have that are just plain misinformed and/or incorrect. Very often misguided views, opinions, preferences, etc. can be deconstructed and disproven when examined under the light of logic and reason. However, most people will flat out refuse to do so because it's not the most comfortable feeling in the world to suddenly realize what you zealously clung to and defended adamantly is, in fact, meaningless.

EDIT: SK, you're alright by me as well. None of this is personal, at least to me anyway. It's just an internet debate, nothing more. (And yes, I will concede a point if proven wrong; it just doesn't happen very often).

[Ephidel]

The problem with this analogy is, once again, chances are if you know you hate hot cider, then you've actually TRIED it, and given it a fair chance, and same with coffee, as well as the point that things like hot cider and coffee don't really change over the years; English dubs have. My point is that most anime fans/gamers who prefer Japanese voices don't actually give the English voices a fair chance. And a fair chance is not listening to 4 lines and then yelling about how awful it is. That is why, as I have stated many times before, I feel that there should not be an option for Japanese voices yet. Maybe some many years down the road, but right now, no, because the English voice actors are trying their damnedest and doing an excellent job, while anime fans far too stuck in their ways of old refuse to give dubs a hair of a chance, much less a fair one. I do not wish for everyone to share my opinion that English dubs are awesome and far better than Japanese voiceovers; what I DO wish for is that everyone who DOES have an opinion on the matter has an informed and fair opinion. And sometimes, you have to force people to inform themselves. What do you think school is? How many of you went to school because you wanted to and not because you had to?

I've underlined the few statements in here I wanted to pick out, to differentiate from the bold and itallic you were already using.

You have had the chance to sample both the original and dubbed dialogue and have chosen which you preferred, be that the coffee or the cider or whatever other drink you want to associate subs and dubs with :P
You have your own reasons for your choices.

You then go on to state that you don't think that there should be an option for Japanese voices because people don't give the English dubs a fair chance.

This is, surely, completely at odds with your proclamation at the end there that you think everyone who has an opinion on this matter should have an informed and fair option.
After all, how can those people gain both an informed and fair opinion unless both options are available so they can fairly try both to inform themselves?

When everyone can finally decide to give both options a fair chance, then, and only then, should both options be available. I thought I made that pretty clear.

The thing is, from where I'm standing what you're trying to make clear makes no sense.
People make choices based upon their opinions. In order for people to have an opinion they should be informed.
That information will be gained by... not being given the choice in the first place? What?
How exactly does that help?

If they only watch dubs because in your hypothetical world (where people are only "ready" for dubs) dubs are all thats available, it will still be impossible for people to get that "informed" opinion as you would only be showing them one side.
That way, the only person able to make that informed opinon would be... well. You. Because you would be the only one with all the information.

And why should that be the case? Why should people not get the choice?
Just because the English voice actors are trying harder and getting better now? I'm quite willing to admit they are. I quite like some dubs.
Still, in many cases the Japanese voice actors will have tried just as hard. What makes the english voice actors more worthy of being listened to when the effort is comparable?
They're both worthy of being listened to.
They're both worthy of being heard.
Who someone chooses to listen to in the end will be up to them. They can make that choice and develop their own opinions.

Therefore, given the chance both options should be available so that people can see for themselves and choose for themselves.
Sure when only one option is possible (space constraints or whatnot) it would probably be better for English voices to be present to appeal to a larger market, but when size is not an issue, theres no real reason not to have the original language available too - be that Japanese, French, or Cockney Rhyming Slang.
At the very least, it helps make a larger selection of people happy than either one individually, and in the long run its probably a good thing to make a larger selection of people happy :P

(And if you're implying that people prefer the Japanese because thats what they listen to first at the expense of the english (which I'll admit isn't entirely groundless), I'm curious as to how your hypothesis in which everyone listens to the English first be any less biased?)

[Superkenon]

OK, so besides the fact that I'm old, cranky, bald, and spending too much time on evil experiments (You're the next guinea pig Sickle!)... :p

The point of my last post was to take my statement way up to the level of the absurd, thereby illustrating a point: opinions can be, and often are, WRONG! This whole notion of preference being a defense unto itself is silly. There are opinions, preferences, and especially beliefs that people have that are just plain misinformed and/or incorrect. Very often misguided views, opinions, preferences, etc. can be deconstructed and disproven when examined under the light of logic and reason. However, most people will flat out refuse to do so because it's not the most comfortable feeling in the world to suddenly realize what you zealously clung to and defended adamantly is, in fact, meaningless.

Ah, sorry for misjudging your post then. I see your point, and I agree, but... well, I suppose there are two types of opinions. One type being more like "I believe that the Brooklyn Bridge is the longest bridge ever," and the second being "the Brooklyn Bridge is my most favorite bridge ever."

Obviously, there's a clear true or false to Opinion Type One. However, there is nothing to be proven or disproven about the latter type of opinion, because that's just one's quirky tastes.

And ultimately, taste is what this thread's argument seems to be all about. I can't argue that you're wrong for preferring english audio, just like there's no way you can say I'm somehow incorrect for (mostly) watching things in japanese. I prefer my way, and you prefer your way. That's all there is to it. There's nothing tangible to argue there that I can see.


EDIT: SK, you're alright by me as well. None of this is personal, at least to me anyway. It's just an internet debate, nothing more. (And yes, I will concede a point if proven wrong; it just doesn't happen very often).

Excellent. Hug?

[Olethros]

:grouphug: :p

Taste is a nebullous thing, true. I would argue, though, that there are both better and lesser refinements in taste. And perhaps neither is incorrect by definition, but it's pretty clear that one is more preferable than the other.

Also, I would say that there really is a logical argument for not prefering to listen to something in a language one cannot comprehend. I don't buy the notion that people can accurately pick up on emotional or tone/pitch elements when they don't understand the words conveying them. For example, Russian and German are very harsh sounding languages. Some very benign phrasings can sound angry. Without understanding the words, you can't fully comprehend what's trying to be conveyed or if it's missing the mark entirely.

[Hitoshura]

The thing is, from where I'm standing what you're trying to make clear makes no sense.
People make choices based upon their opinions. In order for people to have an opinion they should be informed.
That information will be gained by... not being given the choice in the first place? What?
How exactly does that help?

By not letting them ignore the English dub. Duh.

Also, nah, I'm not simply assuming anything out of bias. It's called probability based on my own experiences. And I have experienced that people who legitimately give English dubs a fair chance are few and far between.

[Clephas]

The thing is, from where I'm standing what you're trying to make clear makes no sense.
People make choices based upon their opinions. In order for people to have an opinion they should be informed.
That information will be gained by... not being given the choice in the first place? What?
How exactly does that help?

By not letting them ignore the English dub. Duh.

Also, nah, I'm not simply assuming anything out of bias. It's called probability based on my own experiences. And I have experienced that people who legitimately give English dubs a fair chance are few and far between.

That applies mostly in the case of those introduced to anime or j-games by people who are already obsessed with 'purist' ideas. In fact, these days most people seem to have their first encounter with anime on Cartoon Network, with Naruto (ugh) from what I hear from newer fans in America. It is very hard for an anime fan to introduce someone to subbed anime if that person isn't already an anime fan in the first place. As for j-games, most people never even realize the possibility that dual audio might exist until they get involved with the community, which is not something that happens instantaneously upon playing their first j-game.

To be perfectly honest, I have only encountered a small minority of people that didn't experience dubs long before they experienced subs. Your argument that great numbers of people don't give it a chance is based on your own experience with purists who introduced you to subs first, from what you've said. However, you should realize that most of us didn't get involved through subs first, and those who do are actually pretty rare. After all, j-gamers and anime fans are a subculture that is looked down upon to a certain extent, even now. Introducing others to subs directly is far less convenient than 'educating disillusioned Narutards'.

[DirewolfX]

The thing is, from where I'm standing what you're trying to make clear makes no sense.
People make choices based upon their opinions. In order for people to have an opinion they should be informed.
That information will be gained by... not being given the choice in the first place? What?
How exactly does that help?

By not letting them ignore the English dub. Duh.

Also, nah, I'm not simply assuming anything out of bias. It's called probability based on my own experiences. And I have experienced that people who legitimately give English dubs a fair chance are few and far between.

Why do you care so much about getting people to try the English dubs? Do you think that you will somehow convert the purists to dub-lovers? I somehow doubt that you will convince them to start loving English dubs (even if they are forced to watch them), much like they won't convince you to stop enjoying your dubs. And as long as there's enough demand for something, there will be a company which will seek to capitalize on that demand.

Here in the United States, at least for a mass market game, I would expect that an English dub is the way to go. Despite the vocal minority of purists, I still expect the average consumer prefers something entirely in English. Now Atlus is a niche company with a fanbase that potentially has more of that vocal minority of purists. I expect they've done their market research and I hope they are choosing the option with the best long term profits, because I'm sure we all agree that more high quality games is a good thing, regardless of the language of their dubbing. If providing a dual language option will result in more sales (to purists) or encourage purists to support the company by buying future releases, isn't it worth it for Atlus to add the second language track?

P.S. The localization work for Persona 4 is pretty fantastic. :)

[Hitoshura]

That applies mostly in the case of those introduced to anime or j-games by people who are already obsessed with 'purist' ideas. In fact, these days most people seem to have their first encounter with anime on Cartoon Network, with Naruto (ugh) from what I hear from newer fans in America. It is very hard for an anime fan to introduce someone to subbed anime if that person isn't already an anime fan in the first place. As for j-games, most people never even realize the possibility that dual audio might exist until they get involved with the community, which is not something that happens instantaneously upon playing their first j-game.

Ahem.

By the way, my 'purist' friend? We made him, FORCED him, to watch the Fullmetal Alchemist English dub. The whole thing, all 50 episodes. His verdict?

"Yeah, that was pretty damn good. I guess English dubs really have gotten better." Now, for the most part, he'll actually TRY something in both languages before giving it a final verdict. Usually, he still picks the Japanese. But what's important is that he tries both.

Why do you care so much about getting people to try the English dubs? Do you think that you will somehow convert the purists to dub-lovers? I somehow doubt that you will convince them to start loving English dubs (even if they are forced to watch them), much like they won't convince you to stop enjoying your dubs. And as long as there's enough demand for something, there will be a company which will seek to capitalize on that demand.

Why do you care enough to argue with me? See above. And try actually reading my posts before jumping on me, 'kay? And if you need some greater reason for why I would like for people to actually give English dubs a chance, then it would be something like "So that if in general people could be satisfied with English dubs, then localization companies could guiltlessly spend the money originally used to pay for the Japanese voices to go towards... y'know, more games, instead of catering to people who prefer to listen to unintelligible gibberish instead of giving their own language a fair chance." Pretty unintelligible gibberish, yes, but unless you actually know the language or are learning it (I will give you the point that it is a good tool for immersion), it is still unintelligible gibberish.

[SickleCellAnemia]

OK, so besides the fact that I'm old, cranky, bald, and spending too much time on evil experiments (You're the next guinea pig Sickle!)... :p

Uh-oh! :o

[DirewolfX]

Why do you care so much about getting people to try the English dubs? Do you think that you will somehow convert the purists to dub-lovers? I somehow doubt that you will convince them to start loving English dubs (even if they are forced to watch them), much like they won't convince you to stop enjoying your dubs. And as long as there's enough demand for something, there will be a company which will seek to capitalize on that demand.

Why do you care enough to argue with me? See above. And try actually reading my posts before jumping on me, 'kay? And if you need some greater reason for why I would like for people to actually give English dubs a chance, then it would be something like "So that if in general people could be satisfied with English dubs, then localization companies could guiltlessly spend the money originally used to pay for the Japanese voices to go towards... y'know, more games, instead of catering to people who prefer to listen to unintelligible gibberish instead of giving their own language a fair chance." Pretty unintelligible gibberish, yes, but unless you actually know the language or are learning it (I will give you the point that it is a good tool for immersion), it is still unintelligible gibberish.

Sorry if it seemed like I was jumping on you; I am just trying to understand your reasons for wanting only English dubs a bit better.

I agree that if a company is going to spend more on adding Japanese voices to a game than they will make back in additional sales (considering both the individual product and additional revenue from getting in the good graces of certain segments of the fanbase), they should not do it. Game companies are businesses, and their primary goal should be to (ethically) turn a profit for their shareholders. This in turn is also best for the consumer, because more profit means more games.

My opinions are a bit tempered by the thought that you will never get all the "purists" to change. So even if you change a few, there will always be another generation of "purists" who demand dual audio. In the end, the company will still have to balance the cost of dual audio versus the potential profits, and hopefully make the decision with the best returns.

[Superkenon]

Also, I would say that there really is a logical argument for not prefering to listen to something in a language one cannot comprehend. I don't buy the notion that people can accurately pick up on emotional or tone/pitch elements when they don't understand the words conveying them. For example, Russian and German are very harsh sounding languages. Some very benign phrasings can sound angry. Without understanding the words, you can't fully comprehend what's trying to be conveyed or if it's missing the mark entirely.

Well, Japanese is pretty different from Russian and German, obviously. There's actually a surprising amount of parallels with English in the way its spoken... sort of. Speaking from my experience with it anyway, I was able to properly pick up on emotions and such from the get-go. So I think as far as understanding the feelings of Japanese words goes, it's a pretty natural grasp for us english speakers. Elsewise we probably wouldn't see as many fans of the subs, eh?

Actually, the most logical argument in favor of dubs is... not wanting to rely on subtitles to get the full of a character's dialogue, since clearly comprehending the proper tones won't get you everywhere. ;) That one I can understand easily. Be it because one's more of a listener than a looker, a slow reader, or simply doesn't care for dealing with reading the words and watching the picture at the same time, for some people it just makes more sense to go ahead and listen in the native language. When I watch anime with my father, we tend to watch in English because, among other reasons, he "likes to be able to glance away from the scene without missing a whole sentence," which I understand.

So I actually totally agree that it's more practical to listen in your own language, but yet I prefer listening to Japanese simply because I like the sound of it more. In the end, it comes back to preference.

[Clephas]

Actually, the most logical argument in favor of dubs is... not wanting to rely on subtitles to get the full of a character's dialogue, since clearly comprehending the proper tones won't get you everywhere. ;) That one I can understand easily. Be it because one's more of a listener than a looker, a slow reader, or simply doesn't care for dealing with reading the words and watching the picture at the same time, for some people it just makes more sense to go ahead and listen in the native language. When I watch anime with my father, we tend to watch in English because, among other reasons, he "likes to be able to glance away from the scene without missing a whole sentence," which I understand.

So I actually totally agree that it's more practical to listen in your own language, but yet I prefer listening to Japanese simply because I like the sound of it more. In the end, it comes back to preference.

This is what you call a reasonable and reasoned argument.

[Hitoshura]

My opinions are a bit tempered by the thought that you will never get all the "purists" to change. So even if you change a few, there will always be another generation of "purists" who demand dual audio. In the end, the company will still have to balance the cost of dual audio versus the potential profits, and hopefully make the decision with the best returns.

If one person can change, many can change. "Can" being the key word.

[Olethros]

Also, I would say that there really is a logical argument for not prefering to listen to something in a language one cannot comprehend. I don't buy the notion that people can accurately pick up on emotional or tone/pitch elements when they don't understand the words conveying them. For example, Russian and German are very harsh sounding languages. Some very benign phrasings can sound angry. Without understanding the words, you can't fully comprehend what's trying to be conveyed or if it's missing the mark entirely.

Well, Japanese is pretty different from Russian and German, obviously. There's actually a surprising amount of parallels with English in the way its spoken... sort of. Speaking from my experience with it anyway, I was able to properly pick up on emotions and such from the get-go. So I think as far as understanding the feelings of Japanese words goes, it's a pretty natural grasp for us english speakers. Elsewise we probably wouldn't see as many fans of the subs, eh?

Actually, the most logical argument in favor of dubs is... not wanting to rely on subtitles to get the full of a character's dialogue, since clearly comprehending the proper tones won't get you everywhere. ;) That one I can understand easily. Be it because one's more of a listener than a looker, a slow reader, or simply doesn't care for dealing with reading the words and watching the picture at the same time, for some people it just makes more sense to go ahead and listen in the native language. When I watch anime with my father, we tend to watch in English because, among other reasons, he "likes to be able to glance away from the scene without missing a whole sentence," which I understand.

So I actually totally agree that it's more practical to listen in your own language, but yet I prefer listening to Japanese simply because I like the sound of it more. In the end, it comes back to preference.

You prefer the sing-songy sound of the Japanese vocals. I can agree that it does have a certain evocative sound to it but, as pointed out by your father, without the subtitles you still don't know if they're hitting the CORRECT note/pitch/tone to the dialogue. That makes it impractical and unnecessary. Besides, we also have to go back to the concept of translation versus localization. Since a direct word-for-word translation would make little sense to an English speaker they have to alter it's sentence form and structure. Which means the emotional accent or emphasis will be in different places than the words people are reading. If they're not in the same place, there is very little reason to believe people aren't just hearing what they want or think they want to be hearing instead of what's actually going on. Hence the reason I say it's unlikely most people prefer the Japanese language options for any reason other than they "believe" it to be better vocalized - with no proof that their claims are true.

[Hamel]

The key word is most
there are some people that prefer one voice to another and can make sense of Japanese (most if not all of it)
though I must admit not all Japanese voice actors are OMG SO GREAT that some people tend to make of them
for exemple the guy that did the main character in Shikabane Hime was horrible and I hope we will never get hired again

[DirewolfX]

I suppose this is veering a little off topic, but I just watched a Youtube video of the Japanese version of Persona 4. I definitely think the P4 localization did an awesome job with the dubbing. The voices are well done and they have the same feel to them as the Japanese voices.

I'm not as sold on the Persona 3 voices... or at least, I think Yukari's voice isn't that great, but it's growing on me (or maybe the actress got more into the role and improved over the course of the recording sessions). Once I finish the game, I plan to go check out Youtube again and see how they compare.

Maybe we can have a compromise. Full Japanese language mode (text and audio) or full english mode only. =D That should satisfy the purists and the dub fans. ;)

[PainKilleR-[CE]]

You prefer the sing-songy sound of the Japanese vocals. I can agree that it does have a certain evocative sound to it but, as pointed out by your father, without the subtitles you still don't know if they're hitting the CORRECT note/pitch/tone to the dialogue. That makes it impractical and unnecessary.

If the tone seems to set the proper mood for what's happening in the game, does it really matter if it's completely correct to a version of the dialogue the listener can't understand? Personally, it's much easier for me to ignore small problems with the voice work when I can only understand about 10% of the words being spoken, and this is probably true of most of the people that would prefer the Japanese audio. On the other hand, a 10% error rate in the manner in which the English audio is spoken can drive me up the wall, and it's even worse if one of the main characters' voice actor's performance bothers me.

Besides, we also have to go back to the concept of translation versus localization. Since a direct word-for-word translation would make little sense to an English speaker they have to alter it's sentence form and structure. Which means the emotional accent or emphasis will be in different places than the words people are reading. If they're not in the same place, there is very little reason to believe people aren't just hearing what they want or think they want to be hearing instead of what's actually going on. Hence the reason I say it's unlikely most people prefer the Japanese language options for any reason other than they "believe" it to be better vocalized - with no proof that their claims are true.

I agree with this, but there's still little reason to "believe" that the English voice actors are doing a good job when I can hear for myself that they are not. There are those that do a passable job, so that I won't turn off the voices when sub-titles are available (which I will do even if I have to mute the game completely), but it's quite rare to hear something I would consider a good voice track in English.

[Zenieth]

I'd have to say that English dubs have never been top notch, however this was mainly due to the target audience of the past, former dubbers really didn't need to worry about their performance and could never really get into it as I doubt they actually watched what they dubbed. But now as both anime and video games are becoming more and more main stream dubbers are getting more serious and practical in their work. I like listening to japanese subs only when the english dubs are unbearable in comparison. When voice actors but their all into bringing a characters personality and traits out, then I'll give far more consideration to listening to english, as opposed to hearing the japanese language, which I don't know a lick of but VA's seem more passionate. So Dual audio in my opinion should only be included if a localizing staff believes the completed dub truly wasn't up to standard and even then it has to be a novelty as opposed to an actual necessity. Seriously there is no real reason to complain about it, I like dubs in any language as long as I can feel they are getting the emotion across as well as the tone, though I'll always prefer english, that's why I never watch cow boy bebop in japanese cause those dubs are fantastic.

[Superkenon]

You prefer the sing-songy sound of the Japanese vocals. I can agree that it does have a certain evocative sound to it but, as pointed out by your father, without the subtitles you still don't know if they're hitting the CORRECT note/pitch/tone to the dialogue. That makes it impractical and unnecessary.

All I said my father complains about is missing lines because he didn't read fast enough or such, and that is basically where his complaints end. Even though he prefers watching in English for the practical reason, he still likes the sound of the Japanese more, as even he thinks some English performances a bit grating sometimes. This is kind of irrelevant though.


Besides, we also have to go back to the concept of translation versus localization. Since a direct word-for-word translation would make little sense to an English speaker they have to alter it's sentence form and structure. Which means the emotional accent or emphasis will be in different places than the words people are reading. If they're not in the same place, there is very little reason to believe people aren't just hearing what they want or think they want to be hearing instead of what's actually going on. Hence the reason I say it's unlikely most people prefer the Japanese language options for any reason other than they "believe" it to be better vocalized - with no proof that their claims are true.

Can you prove that the dubs sound better? No, because no matter how you slice it, what's "better" in this case is ultimately subject to personal preference.

Anyway, you can't take this argument very far with me. I've said that I watch dubs almost as much as I watch the original Japanese, and enjoy them both, so you can't say that my preference for the Japanese is based on me blinding myself to alternatives. In addition, since I'm a student of the language, you can't say my opinion has to do with ignorance of its inner-workings either. I'm not exactly fluent yet, but I can easily tell when a Japanese VA fumbles the emphasis and such of his line - and yes, it does happen, especially in games. But... so what? Obviously even the best English dubs screw up an emotional accent now and then, but that doesn't turn you off of them, right? Too busy enjoying the rest of it.

Incidentally, there are less "slip-ups" in japanese audio overall than in their english dubs, there's really no way around this. Chiefly because the voice acting industry is just more cared for over there, and because they're able to work more intimately with the original creators, and other such things. It's their own products in question here after all, so they have the home-field advantage. It's safe to say that their performances contain less flaws overall.

That said, I can't count that as much of a point in favor of Japanese. Even a completely perfect performance doesn't mean much if you personally don't care for the sound in the first place. So again, preference trumps all.


As for what you said about having to re-work sentences... you'd be surprised. You can come up with perfectly natural-sounding translations that match the audio very closely. I've found Japanese to be strangely compatible with English in my experience.

There have been some bad ones though. Which subs have you tried to watch, by the way?

[Einherjar]

This is unbelievable.

[Olethros]

^Really? How so? Could you possibly elaborate more than that, or is your grasp of the written language not quite that skilled?

Wow, I got my post dissected twice! :D

I'm going to admit to something here: I don't really care all that much about the actual topic of the debate. While it's true that I don't ever listen to the Japanese vocals, I also truly don't care if they're included or not as long the English ones are. In fact, I actually prefer no vocals over English ones. What has driven me to continue up until this point has been the debating itself. Much of it (lately anyway) has been well thought out and quite engaging. However, I begin to grow weary of retreading my same arguments (this has to be the third or maybe even fourth time...I'm not digging through the whole thread to find the exact count) over and over again. And while I haven't exactly sat around and tried with any effort, I've failed to come up with any convenient new ones.

As to answering the questions posed by my most worthy of adversaries: I haven't watched any subbed animes. Mainly due to the fact that I don't watch any animes. Also, while I'm essentially conceding defeat by default here, you were primarily arguing from a perspective (a student of the language) that I wasn't really targeting. Obviously you'd have more knowledge and ability than the typical "rabid enthusiast" would. Apples and oranges, you know what I mean? ;)

I may be back for more someday after I've shrugged off some of the fatigue. Aww hell, who am I kidding. I've returned to this thread so many times it seems inevitable that I'll be back at it soon enough. :)

[Superkenon]

Haha. I hear you. I think it's already been twice now that I've decided to back away from this discussion, only to eventually come back for more. You guys must be fun to exchange words with.

I suppose it's true that I'm outside your mark now. But before I started to learn the language, I was just a plain ol' enthusiast... and I was primarily trying to argue from that perspective. Even back then, I was a fan of Japanese over the English dubs just because I thought they sounded more cool.

Come to think of it though, I guess I've come to enjoy it even more lately, the more I understand the language. I guess there's something to comprehension, eh?

[Clephas]

Oh, so THAT's why I never sensed bloodlust from Olethros like I do from Hito.

[Zacewing]

Reading the thread's original post always makes me lol.

[Hitoshura]

What bloodlust? :/ I'm sorry I have a strong opinion about something. :rolleyes:

[DirewolfX]

What bloodlust? :/ I'm sorry I have a strong opinion about something. :rolleyes:

Opinions are bad! Submit to our robot overlords!

[Clephas]

What bloodlust? :/ I'm sorry I have a strong opinion about something. :rolleyes:

Opinions are bad! Submit to our robot overlords!

Only cats are allowed to have opinions, didn't you know?

*Clephas begins muttering about the Kittycat Domination while looking adoringly upon his calico where she sits atop his monitor, looking down at him benevolently*

[Zacek]

Some RPG games have this option, like Eternal Sonata, and I love it. My wife, who is Japanese, prefers to play this games with this option, and I'm sure many of us too. Please Atlus!

[MomoChan]

With the quality of NA dubs still not particularly good nowadays, I just opted to do the next best thing possible so I don't have to beg to localization companies that never listen:

I took intensive classes in Japanese, then bought the original titles on import in their native lingo.

Barring that option (for the lazy folks at least), you could always wait for some computer-savvy shmoe to make an undub rip. I don't recommend it however, since it involves potentially illegal things.

But as for me, I like my games (especially Atlus ones) in their original form.

[Kakizaki]

^You might want to be a little more careful about what you say. I'm referring to "for the lazy folks at least" comment. I don't think I need to explain why this is a potential fire starter.

[MomoChan]

^You might want to be a little more careful about what you say. I'm referring to "for the lazy folks at least" comment. I don't think I need to explain why this is a potential fire starter.

Well, I won't give them the satisfaction of responding anyway, so please be at ease.

The folks who feel guilty enough to apply to the said label will just be practically shouting at a brick wall.

[Kakizaki]

^I think you missed the point.

For some people, it may simply be a matter of laziness - courses may be a viable option. But I don't think it is fair statement to assume that all individuals that want to learn, have the option to learn - or at the very least take "intensive" courses. Geography, money, time, or the realities of life present themselves. That isn't simply laziness.

Again, please give a little more thought to statements that may be interpreted as blanket statements.

[Clephas]

Bad girl. Don't revive evil threads.

[Zacewing]

With the quality of NA dubs still not particularly good nowadays, I just opted to do the next best thing possible so I don't have to beg to localization companies that never listen:

I took intensive classes in Japanese, then bought the original titles on import in their native lingo.

Barring that option (for the lazy folks at least), you could always wait for some computer-savvy shmoe to make an undub rip. I don't recommend it however, since it involves potentially illegal things.

But as for me, I like my games (especially Atlus ones) in their original form.

What dubs have you been listening to? I've only heard a few bad dubs since the PS2 era started. But dubs were pretty bad pre-PS2 era though. I've only played one PS1 game thast had a good dub.

[Olethros]

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4771/animew.jpg (http://img202.imageshack.us/i/animew.jpg/)

[Inzaghi]

undub rip

*twitch*

Please do not mention these again. Piracy's frowned upon on this forum.

[slayn]

Olethros is the best person.

[dragonlife29]

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4771/animew.jpg (http://img202.imageshack.us/i/animew.jpg/)I love you for posting that--it never gets old.

[Olethros]

:D

BTW, welcome back from your sabatical DL29. I don't think I've had the opportunity to tell you unitl now.

[Hamel]

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4771/animew.jpg (http://img202.imageshack.us/i/animew.jpg/)

That made me laugh

Though to be fair I enjoy all shows in their original language

[MomoChan]

undub rip

*twitch*

Please do not mention these again. Piracy's frowned upon on this forum.

Understood.

But the fact that people come up with those things (and why this thread is around in the first place) means that there's an existing and undeniable demand for an alternate language option. Since the localization outfit never listens, these things appear. You may frown upon it, but lo and behold, it's there.

Just to clarify, I've personally never used an undub rip. I bought the JP originals on import just like everybody else who can, and I play the original NA ones as well. I make a hobby out of comparing the base work and the localized version.

Enough said by me. :yawn:

[Olethros]

^ Wow. Killer hobby ya got there. :roll:

[Clephas]

Please, someone, kill this thread. I don't have the emotional fortitude to survive this again. I seriously don't want to ever get drawn into this particular argument again.

[Rednusander]

You don't understand. By killing this thread, we open up this discussion to EVERY game we publish in the future that we decide to use English VA or keep the original Japanese. Not to mention people who newly approach our forums and have a strong opinion one way or the other. At least here, it's centralized.

This thread serves a great purpose, my friends. If you're spent, and you'd rather not argue, then by all means, duck out. But unless something changes in the costs, the mediums, and the world views of gaming as a community, then the argument is eternal.

[cj iwakura]

I'm okay with spoken Japanese as long as it's translated. But if it's undubbed and I have no earthly idea what's being said(due to lack of subs, see SRT OG EF etc.), not so much.

[Zacewing]

I'm okay with spoken Japanese as long as it's translated. But if it's undubbed and I have no earthly idea what's being said(due to lack of subs, see SRT OG EF etc.), not so much.

An undub is Japanese voices with English text.

[slayn]

Wouldn't that just be subtitled or I guess maybe a "sub" if we have to have things end in -ub? The impression I got is that an undub is basically a form of piracy that removes English voice tracks and replaces the Japanese voices.

[Pantaloons]

The English voice work in games like Digital Devil Saga 1&2 and Persona 3 and 4 was mostly excellent, and quite impressive in quality for a company which didn't see massive profit off such an investment like, say, Square did on Final Fantasy X or X-2-- games that didn't even have as good a voice cast as Digital Devil Saga did.

No idea why anyone would have a problem with English dubbing given the voice talent Atlus USA has been hiring when localizing their games. I guess you could make a case that they've used voice talent that you'll hear and see in the credits of a LOT of other games and anime but that says nothing of the quality, it only says they're playing it safe by using mostly proven actors.

[Onion of Mystery]

I'm okay with spoken Japanese as long as it's translated. But if it's undubbed and I have no earthly idea what's being said(due to lack of subs, see SRT OG EF etc.), not so much.

An undub is Japanese voices with English text.

No, an undub is when you take something that has been dubbed into another language, then reinsert the original voice tracks. A dedub, if you will, which is totally different then when something is subbed without redubbing. Naturally, this implies that you're seperating the audio data from the rest of the data, which is why we generally frown on discussing it in detail.

Heh. "Dub" is a funny word. Dub, dub, dub.

[Olethros]

Heh. "Dub" is a funny word. Dub, dub, dub.

Damn it Onion, did you overdo it on the headache meds again? ;)

[Clephas]

Rubadubdub, two pirates naked in a tub...

[cj iwakura]

Well, I meant undub in that sense as being untranslated.

But I think undubs are pretty terrible. If the company went to the trouble of providing a quality dub, enjoy it.

Now if it's an awful one(*coughtearsofblooooood*) then by all means, open season.

[Zacewing]

I'm okay with spoken Japanese as long as it's translated. But if it's undubbed and I have no earthly idea what's being said(due to lack of subs, see SRT OG EF etc.), not so much.

An undub is Japanese voices with English text.

No, an undub is when you take something that has been dubbed into another language, then reinsert the original voice tracks. A dedub, if you will, which is totally different then when something is subbed without redubbing. Naturally, this implies that you're seperating the audio data from the rest of the data, which is why we generally frown on discussing it in detail.

Heh. "Dub" is a funny word. Dub, dub, dub.

Yeah, I understand that, but I was simply correcting him within the context of what he was saying.

And yes, dub is a very funny word. :p

[TheDoctor]

I think these people should just import the Japanese releases. Problem solved.

[Zacewing]

I think these people should just import the Japanese releases. Problem solved.

Most people can't read Japanese though.

[TheDoctor]

I think these people should just import the Japanese releases. Problem solved.

Most people can't read Japanese though.

Then why do they want the game to be in Japanese? There's a big difference between dubbing a film and a video game. Animation is a bit easier to get away than a film but with video games you can go back and alter the mouth movements to fit with english or whatever language.

I actually never heard of this complain in the MegaTen fandom before Persona 3. It's a little ridiculous, specially when Atlus does such a great job at this.

Even some Japanese companies are preferring to go with english as the defaut language. I'm thinking Bayonetta.

[Zacewing]

I think these people should just import the Japanese releases. Problem solved.

Most people can't read Japanese though.

Then why do they want the game to be in Japanese? There's a big difference between dubbing a film and a video game. Animation is a bit easier to get away than a film but with video games you can go back and alter the mouth movements to fit with english or whatever language.

I actually never heard of this complain in the MegaTen fandom before Persona 3. It's a little ridiculous, specially when Atlus does such a great job at this.

Even some Japanese companies are preferring to go with english as the defaut language. I'm thinking Bayonetta.

Because their weaboo minds think the Japanese voices sounds better?

I think they do a great job with the localizxations too, and I don't see why anyone in their right mind would rather have the characters speak a language they can't understand, but whatever floats their boat.

[DamageCity]

Can someone explain the word weaboo for me? I know it's a derogatory term for over zealous fans of japanese pop culture but what's the origin?

It gives me the the mental image of something like a shelayly(sp?).

[deku2106]

Originated in this context as a word-filter for 'wapanese' on 4chan. Now used as a catch-all term for anyone who likes anything Japanese. Most people don't know how to spell it properly, thus it appears in the forms 'weabo', 'weeabo', 'weaboo' and 'weeaboo'.

Actually originated in this comic: http://www.pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF071-Weeaboo.gif

I think it is a stupid term that should be removed from the Internet, along with 'butthurt' and 'emo'. Y'know, seeing as everyone throws these around with wild disregard for what they actually mean.

[Clephas]

I don't go around calling dub-lovers derogatory names, so I'd appreciate it if they wouldn't do it to me. Though I will agree some people who prefer the original Japanese voices are zombies who have decided that they don't want to listen to English VAs and won't even try them. I'm an unabashed Japanese culture addict, but I generally keep my opinions moderate and I don't think I've ever suggested having only Japanese voices in a game. This kind of extremism is no different from the crap we went through the last time this debate got revived.

As for VA quality, it is an undeniable fact that the Japanese VA industry is still ahead of the English one as far as training and quality, but that is mostly because it is acknowledged as a legitimate profession even by people who aren't interested in the business. That isn't to say certain English voice actors aren't the equal of any in Japan, but those are few and far in between, as evidenced by the continuous reuse of the same VAs in most localized and US-made games. To put it more simply, we don't have as large a pool of trained talent to draw from, so we are a little behind, despite having some truly masterful VAs available to us now.

Atlus is one of the few companies that I've only rarely had a complaint about when it came to the voice-actors, so Atlus fans could be considered to be a bit spoiled... I mean, some of the voices Squeenix uses grate on my nerves like a badly-tuned violin played by an amateur. *Clephas repeats an old complaint* Did they have to make Welch's voice so squeaky it sounded like fingernails scratching a chalkboard?

[TheDoctor]

As for VA quality, it is an undeniable fact that the Japanese VA industry is still ahead of the English one as far as training and quality, but that is mostly because it is acknowledged as a legitimate profession even by people who aren't interested in the business. That isn't to say certain English voice actors aren't the equal of any in Japan, but those are few and far in between, as evidenced by the continuous reuse of the same VAs in most localized and US-made games. To put it more simply, we don't have as large a pool of trained talent to draw from, so we are a little behind, despite having some truly masterful VAs available to us now.

You don't watch a lot of cartoons? American animation, what's left of it, has a many great voice actors as Japanese anime.

Video games could be another matter because I can only judge over languages I speak. I don't know if non-Japanese speakers can judge good voice acting over bad if they don't know the language fluently.

[Hamel]

Video games could be another matter because I can only judge over languages I speak. I don't know if non-Japanese speakers can judge good voice acting over bad if they don't know the language fluently.

This argument is getting as old as some forum members

If you can see the way the character moves and know what the character is saying (by subs or text bubbles or whatever) you know what sounds like a good tone and what doesn't sound like one even if you don't know the language

For example take a pet and do the following:
1. Talk to him nicely
2. Talk to him like you are mad
Then watch the different reactions it gives to your tones although they don't know what the hell you are saying

[Hitoshura]

^ Nuances. Learn about them.

[Foobar]

Most people that don't speak japanese as a first language couldn't point out the nuances any better than those that didn't, but man oh man, will they insist otherwise. People who know english as a second language tend to do the exact same thing in regards to acting in English, yet seem to want to rail on its quality anyway.

It really just boils down to bias more than quality. I don't think anyone could have withstood Super Robot Taisen OG Saga Endless Frontier had it been translated or even acted in a literal translation. It would have been rather boring and unfunny.

Or is that, more "emotional," as so many would argue?

[Olethros]

This argument is getting as old as some forum members


Hey now. Who might you be talking about? :p

Anyway, @ TheDoctor: You're heading down a dead end road my friend. Been down that way several times already, and trust me, there's just no through point. Turn back now and save yourself the time.

[SickleCellAnemia]

This argument is getting as old as some forum members


Hey now. Who might you be talking about? :p

LOLOLOL!!

[Hamel]

This argument is getting as old as some forum members


Hey now. Who might you be talking about? :p


:grouphug:

[DirewolfX]

I think we can solve this issue for good by just ensuring that all games are published with only Esperanto text and audio. This should apply to the original Japanese versions and the localized American versions. As a side bonus, it will make localization costs cheaper, so companies will be more willing to take a risk localizing niche or obscure games.

[Otono Kakuei]

I think all of you had a point there for not wanting a Japanese voice because you can´t understand the thing anyway...
But I don´t think there is a problem with having a dual language.. You can just choose whether you want to play with english or japanese voice...

Well I personally would like to play with the japanese voice.. Even though I am not that good with japanese, well i do know a little but I know ZERO about the Kanji. Even then I know this, not better than anyone, that the japanese voice has poured more souls into doing the character voice-over comparing with the english-dubs... Even though i like persona 4 dubs, Yosuke´s voice is really damn cool.. He acted as though he was really there, experiencing all kinds of things that happens to yosuke.

Well, that´s that. I sure hope persona 5 will turn out to be a dual language game...

[happysmiles!]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Atlus has dual audio selection in pretty much all of their titles. It's pretty much just a novelty though. If you want text though you could always go out and buy the Japanese version of the title.

[kelvinc]

I'm not convinced that dual audio is the piece of cake that advocates make it out to be. If it was, we'd see a lot more of it and a lot less of this discussion. My hypothesis is that the chief restriction isn't space, but the additional QA issues with adding in the routines to make DA work. It's not just adding in English audio files to the Japanese game routines: the localizer has to program in the additional variable in the save files to store the language option, as well as reprogram every audio retrieva call to interrupt itb to check the audio option first. Then you have to QA the sucker twice to make sure nobody "konichiwa"s in the English version or vice versa.

Don't forget that Atlus USA is a localization firm first and so we can't expect the same amount of programming resources as we'd expect from a developer.

This is assuming that the original Japanese programmers did not have multiple audio in mind: this is more likely for niche games, and in all honesty the demand for Japanese audio increases with nichiness so the problem is bound to show up. Actually, I think NISA, not Atlus, does more DA stuff because of this demand, which given their QA difficulties, just makes for the worst of all world: the heaviest within-market demand for DA must be satisfied by the firm with the smallest market and thus the least resources.

(I'm 90% sure this point's been covered by others already here, but it bears repeating.)

[IzayoiSakuya]

simply put its space limitations. We may see a DA in the next Persona game on the PS3 who knows. If we are comparing NIS to Atlus, Disgaea and other srpg games take up considerably less disc space so having another language option is possible. Then again keep your fingers crossed because stellar PS3 titles such as MGS4 had so much content that Kojima said there simply wasn't enough room for the Dual audio option

[Olethros]

I agree with Kelvinc. I think it's a far more complicated matter than simple space limitations. Obviously that plays a role, but I'm not convinced it's the only (or even primary) factor in the decision making process.

(Damn it, I'm getting dragged back in again...)

[slayn]

(Damn it, I'm getting dragged back in again...)

You can check out any time you like.
But you can never leave.

[kelvinc]

If you look on the very first page, it's already been established by Manly Biceps that there are other considerations that come before disk space when it comes to the dual audio decision. What those other considerations might be, only our mighty masters know.

Olethros: I feel the exact same way. The best part is that we're actually going in circles now, talking about stuff that already in the thread.

[TheDoctor]

Anyway, @ TheDoctor: You're heading down a dead end road my friend. Been down that way several times already, and trust me, there's just no through point. Turn back now and save yourself the time.

Maybe I should go back and read the first 10 pages.

I still think that whoever wants the audio in Japanese just import the Japanese edition. They argue that's how it was originally intended, so going for the original release is the only logical thing to do, for the rest of us dumbs of the world give us english (or whatever language you speak).

[Hamel]

Anyway, @ TheDoctor: You're heading down a dead end road my friend. Been down that way several times already, and trust me, there's just no through point. Turn back now and save yourself the time.

Maybe I should go back and read the first 10 pages.

I still think that whoever wants the audio in Japanese just import the Japanese edition. They argue that's how it was originally intended, so going for the original release is the only logical thing to do, for the rest of us dumbs of the world give us english (or whatever language you speak).

The problem is two-fold
one is that while a lot of people want Japanese a lot of them can't read it (or don't know enough kanjis to understand a game) or just like the sound of Japanese without knowing it
and the 2nd one (though it's not a problem with some consoles) is region locking for games so you can't import without modding or buying a new console

[Zacewing]

Well, to be fair, handheld systems don't have region coding, and most of Atlus' recent games have been on handhelds.