About the Aleph Theory

[Ozymandias]

Did any concrete proof of this come out?

[Kenji]

I have this hunch that Atlus will never outright say whether Hijiri is the reincarnation of Aleph, if for no other reason than their insistence of keeping each MegaTen self-contained. It's the sort of subtle shout-out that the seasoned fans will get but also won't leave the new fans out in the cold, kinda like the ending of Raidou 1 (okay, maybe "subtle" isn't the right word, but to a newbie, it's very subtle).

However, the fact that Lucifer saw fit to point out Hijiri's sin at all, and Aleph being one of the only humans to commit anything resembling an "ultimate sin," really weeds out the guesswork. Can you think of anyone else it could possibly be?

On a lesser note, I also think that "Hijiri" is a pseudonym, considering that it's written entirely in katakana instead of kanji. It probably has more to do with his job as a reporter for an occult magazine, but Nocturne also marks in katakana what's strange and foreign (such as every single location in Tokyo after the Conception), so it could indicate his "foreign" status to this particular world.

[Emilio Morales]

^Cool deduction ;) I was never aware of those facts, the thing about Hijiri being a reincarnation of Aleph, that's kinda cool :D

[DevilRy]

I have this hunch that Atlus will never outright say whether Hijiri is the reincarnation of Aleph, if for no other reason than their insistence of keeping each MegaTen self-contained. It's the sort of subtle shout-out that the seasoned fans will get but also won't leave the new fans out in the cold, kinda like the ending of Raidou 1 (okay, maybe "subtle" isn't the right word, but to a newbie, it's very subtle).

However, the fact that Lucifer saw fit to point out Hijiri's sin at all, and Aleph being one of the only humans to commit anything resembling an "ultimate sin," really weeds out the guesswork. Can you think of anyone else it could possibly be?

Well, the character design definitely evokes a Hawk/Aleph, but he'd have to be a "preincarnation," since the Conception world necessarily existed before the Millenium. But then Aleph would have yet to commit the "sin" for which he's being punished for in Nocturne as Hijiri. This is just judging from my experiences playing Vanilla Nocturne, so there could be added stuff in the Maniax versions I'm unaware of.

On a lesser note, I also think that "Hijiri" is a pseudonym, considering that it's written entirely in katakana instead of kanji. It probably has more to do with his job as a reporter for an occult magazine, but Nocturne also marks in katakana what's strange and foreign (such as every single location in Tokyo after the Conception), so it could indicate his "foreign" status to this particular world.

I've noticed with RPGs they tend to write everybody's name in kana, though I've noticed the Megaten series has quite a few notable exceptions, with Nocturne especially.

[Kenji]

Well, the character design definitely evokes a Hawk/Aleph, but he'd have to be a "preincarnation," since the Conception world necessarily existed before the Millenium. But then Aleph would have yet to commit the "sin" for which he's being punished for in Nocturne as Hijiri.
Yeah, I didn't mention Hijiri's design similarities to Aleph, but that's true. They look virtually identical.

One of the difficult points of this is what, exactly, the Conception does. I mean, yeah, we're told that it's the fetal form of a new world, but they never explained 1) what happens to the rest of the world (since only Tokyo is curved up into the Vortex World) and 2) whether the new world just branches off from an old one that continues to exist, or whether the old world is destroyed in the process.

I would guess that you're saying that you believe that the Neutral ending, in which everything returns to the way it was, is the official one? In Maniax, I believe Lucifer refers to Hijiri's sin as though it takes place in another world.

Anyway, in regards to the question of "preincarnation," one of the things that vs. the Soulless Army has demonstrated is that time seems to have no meaning in regards to the Amala Network/Makai/Nirvana. I'm specifically talking about Belial, Nebiros, and Alice, who remember events from SMT1 despite those events happening about a century later.

When YHVH cursed Aleph, that cursed carried through the inter-world data network (since I expect YHVH works through that, just like everyone else). Since time is apparently meaningless, that would mean a version of Aleph will show up in every single world, whether that world was conceived before or after the curse. So, to an extent, asking which world came before which is kind of a moot question.

I also have a pet theory that Persona occurs "earlier," and that demons might've manifested from the thoughts and feelings of normal people, separated from them when that world ended, and ended up in the data network believing they're these mythological entities (explaining multiples of supposedly singular gods, among other things). However, because the data network is timeless, demons can surface in P1 and P2 without causing a paradox.

This is just judging from my experiences playing Vanilla Nocturne, so there could be added stuff in the Maniax versions I'm unaware of.
I have a feeling that when SMT4 comes around, it'll be the True Demon ending that gets referenced as official. In fact, I've been wondering about how Nocturne and DDS serve as two sides of the same coin, with their protagonists both achieving godly power on behalf of Chaos and Law factions, respectively. Makes me wonder if the Hitoshura and Seraph are destined to face each other in the next big throwdown.

(though that self-contained rule Atlus is observing also makes me think we might never see that)

I've noticed with RPGs they tend to write everybody's name in kana, though I've noticed the Megaten series has quite a few notable exceptions, with Nocturne especially.
Yeah, I wouldn't have noticed if Hijiri wasn't the only non-demon character whose name was in kana. And if it wasn't for Nocturne's strange and deliberate use of kana, I'd probably still thought it insignificant.

There's a lot of things from that Japanese version that I'm picking up, with my very limited knowledge, that's gotten lost in translation. I mean, Atlus USA did a good job, but there are some things packed into the Japanese sentences that can't be translated easily or without being awkward.

[cj iwakura]

Since I'm replaying Nocturne, question is, if Hijiri isn't supposed to be Aleph...

Then what sin did he commit?

Libel?

[Kenji]

If libel against God counts as an "ultimate sin," then I'll be seeing all of you in every Conception for the rest of eternity! :D

Seriously, though, it seems fairly obvious to those who know their MegaTen history, just like the future referred to in Raidou 1 has only one possibility if you're in the know. I really don't think Atlus ever needs to be clearer than they have been. That's laying a good easter egg, imo, something the producers of FF could learn from. ;)

[Zachalmighty]

If libel against god can get me into an SMT game, then by jove I should be in billions!

[marto_motoko]

I'm actually rather fond of Hijiri. I've never played the second game, but have always wanted to.

If he was Aleph, I'm sure glad he ditched the 1960 strange one piece attire. O_O

Also, was was said in the Raidou game that referred to the future? I don't recall.

[Kenji]

Also, was was said in the Raidou game that referred to the future? I don't recall.
In the last dungeon, as you go forward in time, you come across references to Thor's Hammer and the Great Destruction, the Neutral Hero of SMT1, the Gaian coup d'etat, and a taste of the cruelty of Tokyo Millennium (that lovely reference of sending all physically and mentally handicapped to be worked to death in the factories). You also find out that the Presence Within Kaya, a later Raidou Kuzunoha, originated in the 2050s. This establishes that the differences between our timeline and SMT's extend at least as far as the Taisho Era.

This also, for MegaTen veterans, establishes a very nasty moral conundrum in what is otherwise a straightforward story with minimal ethical conflict.

[Zachalmighty]

Explain the moral conflict.

[Kenji]

The Great Destruction will render the planet uninhabitable, to the point where sealed cities like Tokyo Millennium are the only places that'll support life. Add that to the Gaian theocratic dictatorship and YHVH's impending deletion of the Earth and you have a very ####ty situation.

The Templar Raidou wants to prevent this, so he launches a plan to destroy Tokyo in the Taisho period in the hopes of preventing the larger destruction in 199X. However, doing so will kill off the entire population of Tokyo at least, which Raidou the 14th is charged to protect without exception, even though the Templar Raidou's plans have the potential (not guaranteed) of a better ending overall.

In that lies the moral conflict.

[marto_motoko]

Also, in Devil Summoner 3 doesn't Alice actually refer to the events of the second game?

Oh, as for Hijiri, I wonder if he'll ever pop up again in any way?

[Kenji]

Also, in Devil Summoner 3 doesn't Alice actually refer to the events of the second game?

Oh, as for Hijiri, I wonder if he'll ever pop up again in any way?
First one, but yes. That's why I used it (though the optional bosses of DDS2 could also be used) as evidence of time having no meaning in Makai/Amala/Nirvana, hence why Aleph would show up in every world regardless of whether that world existed "before" the one where he was cursed.

By that token, when our world ends, Aleph will be here. ;)

Based on the details of the curse, I think the only way we'll see Hijiri again is if we have another game that takes place in a Conception. That doesn't seem very likely, though, looking at the franchise history. We can assume a version of him exists in every MegaTen continuity, though, and be pretty secure in that. :P

[marto_motoko]

Maybe Tae is Aleph. :P