Between Similar Characters... Who's Better?

[Mank]

Right now I'm mainly talking Ayano vs Teresa and Althea vs Fatima, but I suppose, say, Rictor vs Rashe and other such comparisons apply. Or, for that matter, would it be better to keep Luna on as a healer or replace her with Althea, who has a full heal move AND much better offensive stats?

[elmerfudd893]

Rasche is much too slow for anything, replace with Richter. Althea and Fatima owns both Anayo and Therese just cause both has that wide area nuke spells. Luna is your beast choice for a healer if you stack at least 1 Sanka Garment and a bunch of Mage hearts. (20+ res and mag)

[skellitorman]

Well for one it depends on what the max level caps are. One character might be more efficient at a higher level because of being able to cost very costly magic more often, whereas for lower level caps you might not want want someone who can only cast powerful spells only once or twice.

Also another huge factor depends who else you have on a team. For example Fatima may be more powerful than althea, and maybe you have a bunch of healers who revive your characters so maybe Althea's resurrect might not be as important (I am not saying that this is the case, but I am just trying to give an example). So in that team maybe Fatima is better. In a team with no healers and no revivers, then maybe Althea might.

Give me some specifications as to what you think makes the character "better," given that the other factors don't apply. In other words just tell me what you are looking for.

Also Mage queen heart gives 40+ mag/res by the way.

[CanuckGamer]

Althea is not a healer! She can bring people back but that is about it, she is far better for attacking.

Althea and Fatima
Fatima: More power, plus a freeze effect on the attack

Anayo and Therese
Either: Anayo is good for speed and crits plus she can null any magic attack. Therese is just raw power.

Rictor vs Rashe
Rictor: Speed, unless you like someone that can attack once every year.

Rina vs Karen:
Karen: Rina has too low tec for her moves to be useful, Karen also has more range. Only drawback is that Karen cannot do as much damage.

Althea vs Luna vs Pip on healing
Althea has the best revive but she would have to sit on the back line if you want her as a healer. This kills her attacking power. Pip has a better regan then Luna but in the end suffers from weaker healing and no attack.
Luna: Good attack and great healing all in one package.

Just my feelings

[skellitorman]

Just to note you said this about rasche, "that unless you like someone that can attack once every year" to go with Richter because of speed. But then you say Luna is great when she is just as fast as Rasche (assuming that your talking about AO, rather than the speed stat, in which case they are both pretty slow when it comes to that stat as well).

[elmerfudd893]

Richter does have a healing spell but its not as strong as Luna's Curall and purifying water. Shince Richter is faster you can always use heal twice to get the same effect, where as Luna is slower and will probbaly heal more if richter's turn passes once. Although Richter does more damage if you use arc circular.

[skellitorman]

My point was that Luna is as slow as Rasche... and you said Rasche was pretty slow...

[Mank]

Hm, okay, well, thanks guys. Since it was asked, this IS based on the tourney rules of a level 45 cap, and I'm trying to decide who to keep at that level so they're eligible and who to grind up so I can beat the Spa missions (just beat the second set, and it gave me a bit of a run for my money. Pip just isn't all that useful, no matter how much you level him, heh.) Oh, and even though I can't think as to who to compare them to, are Pop (for the raw power) and Sadie (for the great move+range) worth keeping around compared to the other useful characters in the game? Oh, and same applies for Roland I suppose...

[CanuckGamer]

My point was that Luna is as slow as Rasche... and you said Rasche was pretty slow...

Yep, luna is sloooooooow. But she is the only good healer so you have to just deal with it.

[skellitorman]

Well every character has their own unique thing going for them. So depending on what type of team you like, and what strategies you are using, anyone can be worth keeping. Although there are few characters that I just dislike and will not like to ever use, which is Kaph, Dia, and Rasche.

Considering the tournament and your situation, I would probably not use Kaph, Dia, Rasche, Rina, alice, and maybe not Ayano and Richter.

That leaves Gaston, Roland, Pip, Luna, Sadie, Therese, Fatima, Althea, Karen, and Pop. Out of those I would highly Recommend having at least Althea, Fatima, and Roland.

[CanuckGamer]

Question! Why use Roland at all? He is okay but there are others that can do things better.

[skellitorman]

Good question and one I thought of for a while. But the reasoning is this. Firstly all his stats are pretty high, and if you give him the true demon blade he gets +50 to MP which is a huge boost in the area he is lacking most (in addition the massive helm gives 40 to attack/hp, and cuierux gives +40 hp/Mag). Second he has good movement, good jump and really good AO, making him a character that attacks more often. His most powerful attack fracture slash has either extremely high accuracy, or cant miss and does very good damage (X3 on side). His other attacks are really useful as well, especially crescent slash.

In addition he can bond with Althea for +50 to strength or Fatima for +50 to mag which makes him even more powerful than he already is. His magic spell when engaged with Fatima does very good damage (X3, like all the Witches most powerful spell) and with the +50 and reboot +40 he could get an exta 90 to mag which makes that spell on par with ignis blaze (obviously one target though). One weakness is that he can't bond twice (with same person) and can't use FD without engaging.

If you look at the other melee fighters you will notice that none is as diverse as he is. Pop is probably better than Roland in most things, but her move, jump, and AO is less, which can hinder certain strategies. Therese is stronger than Pop and Roland but her accuracy is really lacking, and she doesn't get any accuracy boosts on any moves (her strongest weapon even lowers her Tech by 15...). Rasche is way too slow. Gaston is significantly slower than Roland (AO, move), with very low MP, Tech, Speed, jump, but has greater hp, attack, def, and res than all. Richter is significantly weaker than Roland with his most powerful move not even gaining any accuracy buffs. Ayano is just tricky to use, and since the level cap is 45 her Mp is going to be soooo low, along with her HP, so for the tournament I just wouldn't use her.

[elmerfudd893]

My point was that Luna is as slow as Rasche... and you said Rasche was pretty slow...

Yep, luna is sloooooooow. But she is the only good healer so you have to just deal with it. You can always stack up Skanda Garments tho. But Rasche has a 2 space range of attack whereas Luna has her 5 something spaced Aqua Squall that can hit multiple enemies.

[skellitorman]

Ok. How about this. First Rasche's moves actually takes away less AO than Luna's. (Javalin Spike for Rasche takes 11 AO, while purifying water takes away 15 AO!) Every character starts with their AO plus 3 except if you have 40 AO starting then you get plus 4 AO. Every step you take takes away 2 AO, and depending on what move you use it takes away more AO.

Pip has 44 AO (remember this is plus the bonus) and Luna has 40 AO. Purifying water takes away 15 AO and if you move three steps you will have 19 AO! Ouch is all I can say. Whereas Pips curer only takes away 14 AO. So if Pip moves and uses curer he will have 24 AO left. 19 AO and 24 AO is a pretty significant difference. Luna's most powerful healing spell might even take away more AO, but I don't have it since I never use Luna so I can't test it.

Now onto the Lapis seed slots situation. Lapis seeds are probably the most important equip items in the game, and they are are very very precious. Using 2 Skanda Garments will get you 45 AO but if you cast a healing spell then your AO lowers to that of Pip's casting a spell (maybe even lower for the more powerful healing spell). Understand that with the 2 skanda Garments she is going to have at best average AO, and that is wasting two whole slots.

It could work if you know how to strategize. But still wasting two slots for Skanda Garments isn't something that I would want to ever do.

Oh yeah and if you go attacking with Luna then you are going to be waiting a long time till its your turn again, and if you need to heal during that time then tough luck.

[Mank]

Hm, okay, I think I'm getting a handle on things. I suppose the only other thing I want to ask I suppose would be between Therese, Pop, and Ayano, what would be the advantages to using each and are any clearly superior to the other 3, in this tournament at least. (Looking at supplementary skills and raw power, it seems like Therese is the best, but a few people here have made comments about her accuracy. Is this a serious issue, or is it, say, ~80 like it is off a decent leveled enemy in the game...)

[CanuckGamer]

Ayano > Therese > Pop

But I like fast sneaky hits

[skellitorman]

If you are already using Roland then I would probably go with Pop, for the tournament.

[Mank]

Hm, does anyone actually have the base stats or anything for the characters, for that matter? Through google, I found the basic maxed stats for, like, 9 of the characters, but it's missing a few important ones such as Pop. Oh, I'm not sure I NEED Pop to supplement Roland as I already have 4 of my members as the witches... Pop's is the one that raises defense, right? Also, why is Dia so weak? It makes me sad, because she feels soooo close to useable, but she's missing a few key pieces and falls short of all the other characters, heh.

[TheMute]

Dia isnt weak per-say, just low AO.

[CanuckGamer]

And AO is everything!!! >:3

[skellitorman]

Of course you dont need Pop. But if you want another melee fighter Pop would be a better choice for the tournament instead of Therese. If Therese goes against Pop, then Pop would win hands down, because Pop's speed is very high, and Therese's tech is very low.

And having other Witches shouldn't affect your choice of having Pop rather than other melee fighters, unless the witches compliment other melee fighters better than Pop. Having another Witch is just a bonus for Roland.

[Mank]

Of course you dont need Pop. But if you want another melee fighter Pop would be a better choice for the tournament instead of Therese. If Therese goes against Pop, then Pop would win hands down, because Pop's speed is very high, and Therese's tech is very low.

And having other Witches shouldn't affect your choice of having Pop rather than other melee fighters, unless the witches compliment other melee fighters better than Pop. Having another Witch is just a bonus for Roland.
By that logic, wouldn't Ayano be a better choice than either of them? (excluding the fact that Pop is another witch to add to Roland's pool of possible engagements). I'm actually leaning a little AGAINST Pop right now simply because her movepool doesn't seem to fit as well as with Ayano and Therese to her stats. For that matter, if one were to consider Ayano vs Therese for this tourney, who would be better? (Therese has more power and the ability to raise her attack, while Ayano is MUCH faster, moves faster, and is more accurate except maybe her fifth move, plus has the ability to null magic, increase resist for up to five people, and the ability to increase her own speed and tech...)

[skellitorman]

Theres only a few problems with ayano. Firstly, Muei has absolutely terrrible accuracy. Secondly her health and MP are just one of the lowest ever (especially for the tournament with cap 45) so casting silver seal might only happen once or twice because of the high 45 mp to cast. I also don't recall Ayano's speed when compared to Pop (because they are at such different levels right now), but they should be around the same, because Pop has a very high speed stat which might even be higher than ayano's (but then again ayano has meditate +40 and Pop only has rise +20, so it might be around the same).

Also don't forget that in a match between Therese and Ayano, Ayano might win, but in a match between Pop and ayano, Pop will most certainly win. Pop has alot more life and their strength should be around the same. However don't forget that burst stomp has high damage (x3) and can't miss (i tested her 60 tech against character with over 300 speed and hit percent was 100%).

Also Lai only does x2 (but has high critical) whereas Burst stomp does x3, so unless you are planning to use muei with its terrible accuracy, Pop is alot stronger.

[Mank]

Theres only a few problems with ayano. Firstly, Muei has absolutely terrrible accuracy. Secondly her health and MP are just one of the lowest ever (especially for the tournament with cap 45) so casting silver seal might only happen once or twice because of the high 45 mp to cast. I also don't recall Ayano's speed when compared to Pop (because they are at such different levels right now), but they should be around the same, because Pop has a very high speed stat which might even be higher than ayano's (but then again ayano has meditate +40 and Pop only has rise +20, so it might be around the same).

Also don't forget that in a match between Therese and Ayano, Ayano might win, but in a match between Pop and ayano, Pop will most certainly win. Pop has alot more life and their strength should be around the same. However don't forget that burst stomp has high damage (x3) and can't miss (i tested her 60 tech against character with over 300 speed and hit percent was 100%).

Also Lai only does x2 (but has high critical) whereas Burst stomp does x3, so unless you are planning to use muei with its terrible accuracy, Pop is alot stronger.

Is Burst Stomp really that powerful/accurate? Wow. Also, I just realized my Pop has no stat boosting lapis while my Therese/Ayano do. Looks like Pop might actually be just what I'm looking for. Thanks.

[skellitorman]

No problem. Glad I could help.

[elmerfudd893]

Ok. How about this. First Rasche's moves actually takes away less AO than Luna's. (Javalin Spike for Rasche takes 11 AO, while purifying water takes away 15 AO!) Every character starts with their AO plus 3 except if you have 40 AO starting then you get plus 4 AO. Every step you take takes away 2 AO, and depending on what move you use it takes away more AO.

Pip has 44 AO (remember this is plus the bonus) and Luna has 40 AO. Purifying water takes away 15 AO and if you move three steps you will have 19 AO! Ouch is all I can say. Whereas Pips curer only takes away 14 AO. So if Pip moves and uses curer he will have 24 AO left. 19 AO and 24 AO is a pretty significant difference. Luna's most powerful healing spell might even take away more AO, but I don't have it since I never use Luna so I can't test it.

Now onto the Lapis seed slots situation. Lapis seeds are probably the most important equip items in the game, and they are are very very precious. Using 2 Skanda Garments will get you 45 AO but if you cast a healing spell then your AO lowers to that of Pip's casting a spell (maybe even lower for the more powerful healing spell). Understand that with the 2 skanda Garments she is going to have at best average AO, and that is wasting two whole slots.

It could work if you know how to strategize. But still wasting two slots for Skanda Garments isn't something that I would want to ever do.

Oh yeah and if you go attacking with Luna then you are going to be waiting a long time till its your turn again, and if you need to heal during that time then tough luck.
Huh... Very insightful, I never knew anything about AO like that before... I just hope that Luna's turn comes up and beat up the enemy.:tongue: Either way she doesn't really do as much damage as compared to the other witches of the same level. Although shes meant to stay behind and heal rather then be ahead and beating up enemies for you. Unless you can store up like 500 AO and just blast it all in one turn:D

[skellitorman]

I actually made a slight error in that post. If a character has 40 or more AO (base AO, not including the bonus), then their moves actually take away more AO. So with two skanda garments I was correct with that, in the sense that purifying water takes 15 AO. But if she only has 37 AO purifying water actually takes 13 AO. And no you can't stack AO. If you don't move at all you stay with your AO + bonus, so for Luna without Skanda Garments her AO would be 40.

[Acre32]

Ouch... Muei is crap... ;-0 I mean, I kind of knew that... but to actually face someone online and see it have a 0% hit chance??? ;-0 OUCH!!! :-o

Oh well... not sure I can raise a replacement member... :-/

I'm most disappointed with Rasche. I was using him a ton in the beginning... but his range and AO are pretty poor... :-(

[CanuckGamer]

Sorry to break your heart about that move ^^
don't feel bad tho, Therese is a beast.

[skellitorman]

Well Muei is pretty darn powerful, but you have to know how to use it. at side its base is attack is x3.5, and for some reason I can't quite calculate how its accuracy is made, because I am getting inconsistent results with my formula (which means its probably wrong). I think the accuracy is around tech x .94 which is then subtracted by speed. So if you really want a very high hit percent then hit the back and have a higher tech than their speed by about 100.

Obviously thats kind of hard if your trying to attack someone like Sadie or Pop, but some of the slower characters might have that gap. And besides if you have at least a 50% (a back attack with around 65% more tech than opponents speed) chance of killing your opponent in one hit then sometimes that might be the best option.

[Acre32]

Sorry to break your heart about that move ^^
don't feel bad tho, Therese is a beast.

I haven't touched Therese... great... so now I have to go back and power level her before tonight's match? :-D Dammit! I'm already replacing one member cause of my semi-match last night... Now... ehh, I guess I can level these guys together, but I'm sick of replaying the lava mountain level ("Cow Dare You"), especially since I can't cheaply use those Mana Materias! X-D

Well Muei is pretty darn powerful, but you have to know how to use it. at side its base is attack is x3.5, and for some reason I can't quite calculate how its accuracy is made, because I am getting inconsistent results with my formula (which means its probably wrong). I think the accuracy is around tech x .94 which is then subtracted by speed. So if you really want a very high hit percent then hit the back and have a higher tech than their speed by about 100.

Obviously thats kind of hard if your trying to attack someone like Sadie or Pop, but some of the slower characters might have that gap. And besides if you have at least a 50% (a back attack with around 65% more tech than opponents speed) chance of killing your opponent in one hit then sometimes that might be the best option.

Sounds like I should pack her with some TECH items... :-/ But... ehh, I don't know. I might have no choice... I kind of like the lapis she's already carrying... Oh, and she does have the ability to raise her Tech and Speed! X-D Mostly, I like her for her high movement range and AO. I feel like low AO characters will get murdered in this game...

[skellitorman]

If you like what items you gave her, but she can't do anything to anybody, then whats the point of having her?

Don't attach Tech items to her. You really need a Paragon spirit. Remember you need about 70 more tech if you want at least 50 hit percent. Ayano is best used to attack slow characters and spell casters. And realize that certain melee fighters can really mess her up, especially Pop, Roland.

Also Ayano does reduced damage to all the witches, which I thought is something you may want to know, but they do reduced damage to her as well.

[xX_Josie_Xx]

Personally, I use Ayano as more of a distraction in fights, considering her high movement, I'll move her up to a far enemy, and running back to a great fighter, [Roland, Pop, etc..] and I'll let Roland kill the enemy. Mwhaha! I'm evil to Ayano. ;P
Althea? Well, with Ignis Blaze, I'll set her behind Roland or a skilled fighter and attack the enemies with her far ranging magic abilities.
Fatima? I send her out pretty much instantly and obliterate enemies with her multiple attacking Freeze Dust, which can hit like, 6 enemies at the same time if their clumped, but usually I hit 1's, 2's, and 3's.
Kaph? Nah just kidding, he sucks on my game! Serves the perv right! Rawr!
Dia? I rarely use her, but she is good for what I use for, 'Cat Bait'. ~
Roland? Well, of course, I attack and obliterate, isn't that what everyone does?
Pop? Again, I rarely use her, but I will use her for multiple hitting, I can't remember which attack name. I refer to her saying, "I won't lose!". ;P
Josie? Of course, my favourite, that's why the little undead kitty is my username. Again, I will use him as 'dog bait' or sit him beside Roland and use Rusty Rain and Dark Pierce. Sometimes I revive dead characters with him.
Sadie? I sometimes use her, but I hit with her long range shots, usually sitting behind Althea.
Rina? Yay! Goo Rina. An Archer with witches, it doesn't really match, but still. Sit her beside Althea and Shadow Shot, Loop Shot, Apollo Shot. Gee, whats with 'shot'? xD
Rashe? Yes, I like keeping him out with Kaph, I don't use him as much, he's too slow. D:

I think that's all, but my main team is:

Roland, Althea, Rina, Fatima, Josie, Ayano.

[Rampage Ghost]

I took Karen over Rina.

[xX_Josie_Xx]

Eh, Karen has huge range with her 'Flying Shell' but, for some odd-ish reason, I find Rina better.. Hmh..
Let me look into that. xD

[Rampage Ghost]

Rina's range is great and all but her attack power seems so low. The problem I have with Karen is that Flying Shell takes up so much MP. One thing I noticed about Karen though, does anyone else find Grenade, her cheapest skill, to be the most powerful? I dunno.. it just seems to either do more damage than her other skills or a few points less.

[skellitorman]

Jaja. Funny how you say that Rina is weaker. She might be base wise, but that philo bow gives 120 to attack + -40 to tech jaja!! Theoretically she can be insanely strong if you give the philoc bow, homberg + shadow shot. Problem is with equipment that makes her strong makes her VERY inaccurate, and the ones that makes her weak make her decently accurate. Shadow shot is absolutely insane though. It does over x4 damage which is more than any move that I have tested in the game (its even stronger than many people's FD). Karen's strongest move is only x3 I believe (not including FD).

Shadow shot has less accuracy than Muei by 20%. So whoever thought muei was inaccurate will laugh at shadow shot.

[daemons8]

Really? I personally find that some characters have their own disadvantages, but, to a certain degree does it really matter? I just choose my units and move out. As you play the game, the characters will prove their worth to you.

[skellitorman]

You think so? I would like someone to "prove their worth" with this team against me: Rasche, Alice, Kaph, Dia, Luna, Pip. If they beat me with that team then maybe I might believe them.

[Acre32]

Didn't have time to switch my team around... but if I did... I'd use Karen and Richter.

Karen, Richter, Althea, Fatima, Sadie, and Luna.

Those would be good, I think. I'm surprised a lot of people seem to like Rina. I didn't like her much... found her to be kind of whiney... :-P

EDIT: I forgot to mention: I just love Karen's FD!!! X-D It's awesome when maxed out! :-) A little FPS in your SRPG?

[xX_Josie_Xx]

I don't use Steven and Richter much, but when I do, I try to hit double groups with Richter, but Steven gets the same job as Roland.
I'd say Rina is much much better then Karen, her Shadow Shot doesn't have high accuracy, but it is sooo powerful. I get like 20% with it. ;D
Karen is also great, I don't use her as often, but I'm running through the game a second time, I think I'm at Chapter 30 ; Throne of the Mage Queen.
You can kill the weak enemies at the start of the game when you run through a second time, it makes you feel like a killer. :D

[skellitorman]

Since when can you use Steven (Rasche's dad)?

On a side note. Josie is absolutely awesome and I proved that in my last wifi match jaja. I even killed people with dark pierce jaja (it only did like 128 damage).

[CanuckGamer]

Josie is really great but it all comes down to what lapis you put on him.

[freakcan]

I don't see what is great about Josie. I'd say (s)he is mid tier.

[skellitorman]

Play me and you will understand.

[daemons8]

Since when can you use Steven (Rasche's dad)?


My guess...HACKS!!!!!:o
But ya I'm wondering the same thing. (multiple play throughs?)

[xX_Josie_Xx]

Oops, did I put Steven? :X
I meant Gaston, hehe.
I get their names mixed up alot. Don't mind meh. ;D
Yesh, Josie does rock, but it's very true what CanuckGamer said, it all depends what lapis you put on him. So true.
I wish I had a Wi-Fi connector, I wanna play with you guys online. ;P

[skellitorman]

Josie is a very tricky character to play against and to use. He can be very good if you know how to use him. In my last match that I played my Josie only died once and killed two characters (one with dark pierce!) whereas my Fatima must have died like 4 times . The match was long too (about an hour long) because of items... (like holywing)

What people don't realize is that Josie is quite versatile, and even though he lacks power, there is no character that is quite like Josie.

[freakcan]

Play me and you will understand.

Well, I'm going to assume your Josie is level 99 though. Level 45s will have a tough fight.

[skellitorman]

Well when all your characters are lvl 99 and then you play me, then you will understand.

[xX_Josie_Xx]

Josie does lack power, but he can distract the foe by making them walk to him, then making another person and another surround the boss and kill. And Josie doesn't have long ranged attacks, (other then Dark Pierce), but the problem with that is he doesn't have much health either. :X
Otherwise he's a great character, and when you learn how to use him with some lapis, he can be the best. ;D

[skellitorman]

The fact that nobody equips automedics make him better. And if they do equip an automedic you can laugh about josie scaring them into doing that lol.

[kitsune_rei]

Richter was so much better than Rasche it was sad, he got kicked to the curb because Richter was so much better at pretty much everything.

I wanted to like Luna as a healer, but she's so slow usually you're dead anyway so Althea is a better choice. A lot of stuff in the game can 1-2 shot you so smaller healing doesn't help much, and Pip's regen only helps marginally. It just sucks losing your FD when you die. Though at least Luna has some damage too. I used Pip to get through early game, but I wouldn't use against another player.
I think Fatima is stronger than Althea offensively. Althea was fairly strong when she first shows up, but she seemed weak by later game.

Between Ayano and Therese is a hard choice, though the lack of accuracy can be annoying. I liked Ayano's wide movement range, though she never has a huge amount of HP.

I really liked Karen more than Rina. I've never once seen Kaph's Silence effect work.

Roland isn't shining, but he's good at a lot of things and a good mix of melee and magic, and has high HP etc compared to many characters. I think he's good all around unless you have no witches in your party.

I wish Dia and Josie were a bit more impressive.

[skellitorman]

Josie is already too impressive what more do you want? God Josie?

About Althea. She only has 30 less mag stat than fatima when they are both lvl 99 so fatima isnt stronger by much, and so if you think althea was weak later game then fatima is pretty weak too.

[kitsune_rei]

I guess most of the witches don't feel as strong later game. I loved Pop at first, but after getting other melee characters she wasn't that great. I do think Fatima's chance of freezing makes her a lot more useful, but I stopped using her much and just use Althea for hard fights to rez. I beat the last spa mission just by using the Althea machine to keep throwing characters at her as fast as she was killing em.

I guess I'm really missing something on Josie. He doesn't hit particularly hard, doesn't seem to live particularly well, I like his movement but all his attacks are single target, is Rusty Rain better than I thought or something? His revive is only partial health I think so its not that useful. I love Josie, so if he's good then I want to use him more.

But I don't play online, so maybe he's more useful vs players.

[skellitorman]

Yea he is a more useful character vs. players. His rusty rain is pretty much useless though so yea.