How about...

[slayn]

...we ban people that can't communicate properly? Ideally this would include, but not be limited to, horrible spelling, horrible grammar, overuse of emoticons, and overuse of internet abbreviations (lol, lmao, etc.). Note that I'm speaking of extremes here, not the occasional misspelling, missed comma, smiley, or "lol."

You've taken steps to eliminate the negative connotations that have been associated with these forums in the past (word filter, banning volatile members).Disruptive behavior isn't limited solely to pure negative intent. Issues dealing with poor communication can be just as disruptive.

[Balrog]

There's no excuse for horrible spelling. There is a built-in spell checking function in Firefox, no excuses, guys.

[James Fiend]

I'm guessing that that this sort of rule won't be instituted any time soon with the rise in popularity of the Persona series. Alienating young new fans probably isn't good for business.

If something like this were instituted, however, I'd suggest new members be encouraged to explain if English is their second language.

Actually, I think new members would be wise to do that anyway.

[Kakizaki]

^I kind of agree with you on the ESL thing, but I think you may also be shocked at the results.

I can't tell you how many times I assumed I was speaking with a non-native English speaker due to 'grammar issues' and it turned out to actually be a native speaker. Sad.

Also, second the comment on Firefox. It baffles me as to why people don't take advantage of that feature.

[jeffx]

Some sort of warning/karma system where people vote individual posts up and down (think Slashdot) would be more appropriate than straight bannin'. I'm sure there's such a vBulleting extension out there, but does Atlus really care about installing it?

There's also the ignore list, don't forget about that option.

[Hamel]

^I kind of agree with you on the ESL thing, but I think you may also be shocked at the results.

I can't tell you how many times I assumed I was speaking with a non-native English speaker due to 'grammar issues' and it turned out to actually be a native speaker. Sad.

Also, second the comment on Firefox. It baffles me as to why people don't take advantage of that feature.

Some of us don't use FF
like me

[Sei]

Or me!

Chrome 4l!.

[dragonlife29]

Seeking Utopia on the internet, huh? While it is an interesting idea...I don't know--sounds a little too extreme.

[James Fiend]

^I kind of agree with you on the ESL thing, but I think you may also be shocked at the results.

I can't tell you how many times I assumed I was speaking with a non-native English speaker due to 'grammar issues' and it turned out to actually be a native speaker. Sad.

Also, second the comment on Firefox. It baffles me as to why people don't take advantage of that feature.
Don't get me wrong, I'm guessing the ESL factor is maybe ten to fifteen percent. I just feel bad when people get mistaken for illiterate when they are actually not as familiar with the language and don't throw that fact in their sig or list their country.

This definitely doesn't apply to some of the insane internet shorthand I've seen popping up. (ofc = of course? Really?!)

[Hamel]

^I kind of agree with you on the ESL thing, but I think you may also be shocked at the results.

I can't tell you how many times I assumed I was speaking with a non-native English speaker due to 'grammar issues' and it turned out to actually be a native speaker. Sad.

Also, second the comment on Firefox. It baffles me as to why people don't take advantage of that feature.
Don't get me wrong, I'm guessing the ESL factor is maybe ten to fifteen percent. I just feel bad when people get mistaken for illiterate when they are actually not as familiar with the language and don't throw that fact in their sig or list their country.

This definitely doesn't apply to some of the insane internet shorthand I've seen popping up. (ofc = of course? Really?!)

Because if we do put it in our sig people may take us less seriously
or at least that's what I feel

[dunno001]

Some of us don't use FF
like me

Wow... I'm excited to see that there are other people who will admit to not using FF! My browser works fine everywhere I go, including a site that both my roommates and myself need to occasionally access. They use FF, and I always hear them griping about how it doesn't render correctly... (And don't get me started on that one smiley on the side here...)

Back to the topic at hand, a warning system would be much better than an initial outright ban. I would also put money on more than 3/4 of the people who would be in trouble for this being "native" speakers; I can't count the number of people I've seen apologize for poor English (that really wasn't) because it was a second language.

[Sei]

^I kind of agree with you on the ESL thing, but I think you may also be shocked at the results.

I can't tell you how many times I assumed I was speaking with a non-native English speaker due to 'grammar issues' and it turned out to actually be a native speaker. Sad.

Also, second the comment on Firefox. It baffles me as to why people don't take advantage of that feature.
Don't get me wrong, I'm guessing the ESL factor is maybe ten to fifteen percent. I just feel bad when people get mistaken for illiterate when they are actually not as familiar with the language and don't throw that fact in their sig or list their country.

This definitely doesn't apply to some of the insane internet shorthand I've seen popping up. (ofc = of course? Really?!)

Because if we do put it in our sig people may take us less seriously
or at least that's what I feel

I agree with that. People tend to judge what you say for who you are and not what you say. For instance, everyone started treating me different here when someone said I'm a girl. Why a bunch of people made posts about how they'd cope with that new reality and how they would treat me different missing the point that I am I and that if I wanted to be treated a different way than everyone else I would plainly say so. It's demeaning and condescending on its own way.I think people should be judged for their actions and not for who they are perceived to be (nationality wise, or ethnicity wise or gender wise). If someone can't spell and has horrible grammar, then they can't spell and have horrible grammar. If people want to nitpick on that they will whether the person is from California or Croatia (for example). But the self identified Croatian will (from what I have seen) have to put up with a lot more condescension, regardless of his other abilities.

I think part of the magic of the internet is that people are just people, and not anything else.

[slayn]

I'm guessing that that this sort of rule won't be instituted any time soon with the rise in popularity of the Persona series. Alienating young new fans probably isn't good for business.


Then Atlus is supporting underage players getting access to M-rated games and needs to be reported ;).

If you're old enough to buy a Persona game (and assuming English is your native language), then you can damn well take the extra five seconds necessary to make sure your posts don't look like a bunch of gibberish.

And warning systems are for weak, pansy forums. Atlus needs to send a message that idiots won't be tolerated.

[Hamel]

Atlus doesn't publish SMT games only

[Kakizaki]

And warning systems are for weak, pansy forums. Atlus needs to send a message that idiots won't be tolerated.

I can definitely understand your frustration, but I do think this tone is a bit harsh.

While I was for a warning system from the beginning, so far I am not sure what I think of the one we actually do have in place currently -- maybe people are unaware that we do have one. I think it still may be too early for me to make a call on its effectiveness at this point.

[slayn]

Atlus doesn't publish SMT games only

I never said they did. However, SMT games, and specifically the Persona games, were the examples given of why a bunch of young fans are showing up, and I felt compelled to point out the seemingly contradictory nature of such a claim.



I can definitely understand your frustration, but I do think this tone is a bit harsh.

I'm mostly being facetious with this. I don't ever really expect to see bans for poor communications skills. With that said, I still think something needs to be done before this forum is thought of as a place full of little kids gushing about the latest Persona game.

[Kakizaki]

^I assumed as much, but I wasn't sure if everyone would get that.

[James Fiend]

I agree with that. People tend to judge what you say for who you are and not what you say. For instance, everyone started treating me different here when someone said I'm a girl. Why a bunch of people made posts about how they'd cope with that new reality and how they would treat me different missing the point that I am I and that if I wanted to be treated a different way than everyone else I would plainly say so. It's demeaning and condescending on its own way.I think people should be judged for their actions and not for who they are perceived to be (nationality wise, or ethnicity wise or gender wise). If someone can't spell and has horrible grammar, then they can't spell and have horrible grammar. If people want to nitpick on that they will whether the person is from California or Croatia (for example). But the self identified Croatian will (from what I have seen) have to put up with a lot more condescension, regardless of his other abilities.

I think part of the magic of the internet is that people are just people, and not anything else.
I don't think they necessarily have to list their country of origin, it just might be in their best interest to somehow make it known that English isn't a language they are fluent in. Slayn probably wouldn't make a thread demanding we throw out people who are struggling with English (probably).

Gender doesn't affect your ability to communicate (cue jokes) so there was never any special reason to let anyone know. The only people who seemed surprised were a handful of regulars who seemed surprised that it never came up and had already built up an image of you. There are a couple of posters who have mentioned being girls and a few alternate lifestyle posters. I haven't seen them face any condescending posts. I think this forum is relatively progressive ( except when it comes to RPGs :wink: )


Then Atlus is supporting underage players getting access to M-rated games and needs to be reported ;).

I'm guessing the money would be worth the risk even if you weren't joking.

[Kakizaki]

I don't think they necessarily have to list their country of origin, it just might be in their best interest to somehow make it known that English isn't a language they are fluent in. Slayn probably wouldn't make a thread demanding we throw out people who are struggling with English (probably).

Gender doesn't affect your ability to communicate (cue jokes) so there was never any special reason to let anyone know. The only people who seemed surprised were a handful of regulars who seemed surprised that it never came up and had already built up an image of you. There are a couple of posters who have mentioned being girls and a few alternate lifestyle posters. I haven't seen them face any condescending posts. I think this forum is relatively progressive ( except when it comes to RPGs :wink: )

Well said. I agree on both accounts.

[magitalon]

I like this idea, but I bet there are at least a few younger kids who can't help themselves, yet enjoy being around...

[slayn]

Thread necromancy!

LOL if I am to get mordern warfare 2 I hope they take juggernaut off it requires NO SKILL whatsoever...it pisses me off... i invaded this one guy and he was a coward he ran off on 1-4 or 5 whichever the one with the false king so we get to the elevator what is weird is he pulled the switch and it went so fast and yet in my world when I pulled the lever it slowly went up...but anyways the guy was a whimp....and as soon as I stepped in there he pulled it and had a huge sword or something and in swung it so fast for it being so big and 3 hits killed me and I sent him a message cussing him bc of that and he was the biggest whimp out of everybody at least the other guy hurried and summoned someone so I got double teamed i got pissed about that too but if I am fighting someone it is ONE on ONE unless I have somebody with me

Look at this post. Just look at it. How is this not being edited into non-existence? How is this user, and the many others like him that show up with each new game that Atlus announces, not being given warnings for the sexual assualt they are committing on the English language?

Yes, I can understand if English is not your native language, but I'm guessing that, by and large, this is not the case and people are just lazy. Take the above-quoted post; this fellow obviously has some degree of intelligence since he only misspells a single word, so I can only conclude he is just incredibly lazy.

Being young is no excuse, either, because schools start teaching spelling and the basics of grammar (like, I don't, capitalization and proper punctuation) in the first grade.

The rampant abuse of the language was irritating when I started this thread last year, but things have gotten progressively worse. And beyond just irritating some of the regulars, it is giving the Atlus forums a bad reputation in other parts because no one wants to try to decipher crap like the post I quoted in the hopes that there's something worthwhile hidden away behind the stupid.

[Olethros]

Me agreed wit Slain here whyl its has gots worsened in tha pissed yeer i cant imajin wut cud bees dun aboot it sew i gess us haz to puts up wit id

[SickleCellAnemia]

How about warning people that use text colors that hurt your eyes like this? Someone's been doing that recently, and imagine a whole post with that color.

[Hamel]

How about warning people that use text colors that hurt your eyes like this? Someone's been doing that recently, and imagine a whole post with that color.

What's wrong with some color?

[littlefuzzy1]

... mordern ... whimp ... (in swung it so fast) ... whimp ...
Take the above-quoted post; this fellow obviously has some degree of intelligence since he only misspells a single word, so I can only conclude he is just incredibly lazy.

I counted THREE misspellings. :devil:
Ignoring the non-capitalized words, lack of punctuation, and so on, he had:
1. mordern = Modern
2. & 3. whimp = wimp (two times)
?. Also, he had "in swung it so fast", from the context, I assume he meant something like "THEN swung it so fast". However, I don't know if that strictly counts as a misspelling.

I definitely would say that warnings come before a ban, dropping a "ban hammer" out of the blue on someone just because of a post like the above is extremely heavy-handed, and it would just encourage resentment towards the Atlus forums. - "Don't go there, they are Nazis who ban anyone that doesn't post like they are in Honors English."

I have a friend who is an adult with some level of extra responsibility at his job, but his spelling is atrocious. It's not that he's lazy, or trying to set a speed record in typing, he just can't spell. I know that it is difficult for many people out there to type or try to remember all of the English rules while they are putting their thoughts down on a message board post.

[slayn]

I know that it is difficult for many people out there to type or try to remember all of the English rules while they are putting their thoughts down on a message board post.

I refuse to accept this as a valid excuse. The beautiful thing about a message board post is that it does not upload the exact second you finish typing; you have all the time in the world to review what you're saying and make the necessary corrections before you hit that "Submit Reply" button. If a person cares to little for their thoughts and opinions that they don't bother to make them at least legible, if not clear and concise, why the hell should I, or anyone else, give a damn about what that person is saying?

[Kain Mare]

How about warning people that use text colors that hurt your eyes like this? Someone's been doing that recently, and imagine a whole post with that color.

What's wrong with some color?
Those colors can trigger a chronic migraine for me. I don't know about you, but I don't want the feeling of someone drilling into my head for a day. Unfortunately, I haven't experienced said user(s) posting with intolerable colors. If I am to, in the future, I will gladly voice my concerns about it. I've done so on other boards.

On the topic of bad spelling and horrible grammar, as long as the person is conveying their point and is understandable, then I think it is alright. However, I HATE chat speak with a passion, and have a real dislike for those who continue to use it. I think there should be some warnings issued. It's unacceptable for one to decipher a single post full of chat speak and/ or has horrible spelling and bad grammar.

I like jeffx' idea of a Karma system. Users have the ability to increase or decrease another user's Karma, and after a certain negative point, that is when I think a warning is issued.

[Olethros]

I didn't even consider the migraine issue, but Kain's concerns are medically valid. This is a documented phenomenon and I'm just damned glad that it's not one of my triggers.

I can live with spelling and grammar errors (I'm guilty myself when I'm hurrying) within reason. The overwhelming annoyance to me comes from the ever present one-sentence-block-of-text-running-sentence-with-lots-of-repeated-parts-only-seperated-with-ellipses-and-without-paragraph-breaks nonsense we seem to get here. They also usually come with a bandwagon statement that takes a few minutes to decipher and ends up being the same damned thing the post above it said anyway. :mad:

[Onion of Mystery]

Oh boy. You think you've got it bad here? You should see the emails we get.

This place is a gen-u-wine Bovine University compared to the things we see in our inboxes. Real emails, from real people.*

*For a given value of "real."

[slayn]

Oh boy. You think you've got it bad here? You should see the emails we get.

This place is a gen-u-wine Bovine University compared to the things we see in our inboxes. Real emails, from real people.*

*For a given value of "real."

- Stopped trying to make sense of it all since 2006.

I think I understand now.

Really, though, I'm not surprised, though I can't help but be just a little bit confused. I would assume these people are contacting you (you being all Atlus employees that receive such emails) to voice an opinion or make a complaint or something similar. I know that anytime I've contacted a company in the past, I took my time writing the letter or email and made sure I was coherent and that that I didn't have any misspelled words or grammatical errors, because I knew I wouldn't be taken seriously otherwise. And Onion's comment indicates I was right, since he's joking about those emails here.

[Olethros]

LOL. Sorry Onion. I can only imagine what you guys must get, especially considering the whole CrossAschWard fiasco as an example.

Still, no harm in venting off a little frustration now and again, eh?

[Inzaghi]

I would assume these people are contacting you (you being all Atlus employees that receive such emails) to voice an opinion or make a complaint or something similar.

The confusion is so extensive that we're not even sure why these people contacted us to begin with.

[Foobar]

On the forum I admin, we had to come to the conclusion that we couldn't just ban people for being stupid or spelling poorly. While one person might not communicate that well, there may be a reason for it.

It sometimes does let a couple people go on posting for a little too long, but you have to realize there should be some fairness to banning. We had another admin that basically wanted to ban people as Slayn originally suggested, but we didn't want such an arbitrary process. Not only would it be too much work to be the grammar police, most of our users didn't require that much attention. The few thousand that visit are fairly well behaved and we're fortunate for that.

A warning system tends to suffice for most forums. I will nitpick that here, however, such warnings should not be issued only in the threads themselves, but in PM. Trust me, its annoying as hell to do a PM for every little issue that comes up and I cringe when I have to attend to it, but at least the user has no excuse for not knowing they've been warned.

Warn only in a thread and a user might not come back to it for days and never return to the topic. Its the easy way out, but its not as effective a means for warning the user.

That said, I will say colored text is eye-splittingly bad. Bad grammer won't hurt my eyes, but having to try to read pink or yellow text does hurt. Its jarring, unpleasent and forces your eyes to readjust just to read that one post. I've actually wanted to say something about to that user the other day, they don't seem to realize thier form of "expression" basically amounts to violating the retinas of others.

[Kakizaki]

That said, I will say colored text is eye-splittingly bad. Bad grammer won't hurt my eyes, but having to try to read pink or yellow text does hurt. Its jarring, unpleasent and forces your eyes to readjust just to read that one post. I've actually wanted to say something about to that user the other day, they don't seem to realize thier form of "expression" basically amounts to violating the retinas of others.

Thank you.

Those colors can trigger a chronic migraine for me.

I actually have the same problem, but I am hesitant to mention it because I feel as though people might have a hard time believing it.

I used to PM people here regarding font color, but I noticed they tend to get much more bent out of shape than when you request the same through a public post. Odd.

[Kain Mare]

Kakizaki; I've suffered from Chronic Migraines for just about 10 years now. The slightest of color changes for me (including light) can trigger one to where I can't stop it. I have to voice my illness to others when they post outrageous fonts on boards, or I risk being out of commission for days (5 a most). I also tell my co-workers, friends and other relatives (and strangers who flash cameras in my peripheral vision. I get incredibly upset over it). When they ask, I describe. I can appreciate boards like this one that have nothing but black text, and I don't have to worry if a user is going to post in a different color.

Now, the user in question has such a color font that isn't black, and I'm slightly weary of reading their post. Right now, I'm ignoring threads that this user has posted in, but when it comes to a time when said user is going to post in the same thread as I, that is when I will kindly ask in public.

I'm glad there are others who share the same illness as I. It's difficult sometimes because when I explain, I get the response, "Oh, it's just a stronger headache. You'll be fine."

Foobar; I whole heartily agree.

[Kakizaki]

^I've been having problems with migraines since I was a little kid. I'm still not sure about all of my triggers, but I at least know of a few.

I had pretty good luck for a stretch a couple of years back, but then over the past year and a half, I have experienced a pretty bad run of reoccurring migraines.

This spring, April/May, was really bad.

[SickleCellAnemia]

especially considering the whole CrossAschWard fiasco as an example.

WHY YOU DEFIES ME OLETHROS???

[Onion of Mystery]

Well, heck. I thought I could whip up a new style for you that would disable the [ color ] tags just by selecting it, but after an hour or so on the vBulletin forums that appears to be impossible (as in, "major cross-forum code breaking" impossible). A simple find/replace for the color tags won't work, since the tags don't actually appear as text. The only option available at the nonce appears to be to disable the color BB tags for everyone, and I can't do that over just a couple of people.

I'll have to bug PurpleDragon tomorrow to sign me/her/Atlus staff up for the "official vBulletin customer" forum so I can ask them directly, but so far the prognosis isn't good.

I can certainly sympathize; I get migraines myself, though so far there doesn't appear to be any particular trigger for them. I had a really bad last couple of months though, but I know (www.atlus.com/101party) exactly (www.atlus.com/bancho) why. (www.atlus.com/traumateam)

[Olethros]

I can certainly sympathize; I get migraines myself, though so far there doesn't appear to be any particular trigger for them. I had a really bad last couple of months though, but I know (http://www.atlus.com/101party) exactly (http://www.atlus.com/bancho) why. (http://www.atlus.com/traumateam)

LOL.

Thanks for trying Onion. I've had migraines since I was in my late teens. Mine are almost always stress/anxiety related, so I particularly related to your "reasons". I'm incredibly thankful that color/light don't seem to effect me. That must be extremely difficult Kain/Kaki.

[slayn]

Another idea: Warnings/bannings for overuse (which is to say, more than a single time) of stupid internet memes. Off the top of my head, there's a certain user that has been spamming the idiotic "OVER 9000" 4chan meme, though another example would be claims that the Wii is for little kids, which pops up almost anytime anyone mentions the Wii.

[Onion of Mystery]

If we started banning people for being stupid, there'd be nobody left but chibilemonchan, because we'd have all banned each other into extinction.

[slayn]

Well I'm not talking about all the stupid people, I'm just talking about the people posting idiotic memes. Also, I did say warnings first; if you're too thick to stop doing something after an admin has told you not to, well, you're probably not going to be around very long anyhow.

[bluecactus]

If we started banning people for being stupid, there'd be nobody left but chibilemonchan, because we'd have all banned each other into extinction.

Hahaha, I had to laugh at that.

To the Original Poster: that's too much of being a grammar nazi if we started banning everyone with horrible spelling and grammar. Not everyone's first language is English. But anyway, I know what you mean about people who can't seem to comprehend anything. Aren't these people called trolls?

[slayn]

Aren't these people called trolls?

No, actually, they're the people susceptible to trolls :).

[Tivor]

u mad?



Ok ok I kid. :D

But if I had it my way, saying "u mad?" would be an insta-bannable offense. That has to be the most annoying internet meme in recent history. Thankfully, I don't think I ever saw it uttered here on Atlus boards. (except, of course, my own utterance of it just now.... uh-oh.....)

[Kakizaki]

But if I had it my way, saying "u mad?" would be an insta-bannable offense. That has to be the most annoying internet meme in recent history. Thankfully, I don't think I ever saw it uttered here on Atlus boards.

There are a bevy annoying internet meme that show up on these boards -- but fairly infrequently. My personal least favorite:

"Mmmkay..."

Repulsive. Really hasn't come up in quite a while, but there was a particular poster who used to use it quite a bit.

[Olethros]

I remember that...

Come to think of it, I could've sworn I've scene it recently resurface. :-?

[Inzaghi]

I don't know if you could call it a meme exactly, it's too widespread for that, but I'm personally tired of people adjusting a quoted message and saying "Fixed." It stopped being original a long time ago, and as a form of argument, it's not much higher than "NO U."

[Camanche]

Do all these memes come up in the various game forums? I never see them. I just ran across the NO U while reading this actually. lol

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e356/Zausticaa/no20u_571-1.jpg