Ketsui Death Label - DS Shooter

[jeffx]

http://www.shopncsx.com/images/products/detail/ketsui_death_ds.1.jpg

http://dsmedia.ign.com/ds/image/article/876/876487/ketsui-death-label--20080523040107998.jpghttp://dsmedia.ign.com/ds/image/article/876/876487/ketsui-death-label--20080523040120607.jpghttp://dsmedia.ign.com/ds/image/article/876/876487/ketsui-death-label--20080523040109389.jpghttp://dsmedia.ign.com/ds/image/article/876/876487/ketsui-death-label--20080523040106811.jpg


View the Official Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhfq53if8hE)

This is yet another Cave shooter that's leaps and bounds above every other game of its genre. Difference here is that this is a DS title that could easily be picked up for the US market. The DS has a poor selection of SHMUP titles (Nanostray I, II... that's IT unless you include the homebrew Touhou games) so this could definitely fill the gap. Atlus USA, you would make a lot of gamers happy and strengthen your hold on the "hardcore for the hardcore" status.

Make it happen!!! Otherwise I'll go bug Aksys or D3 Publisher (who did a good job with Bangai-O Spirits)

For more info, here's a hands on preview (http://www.siliconera.com/2008/10/20/hands-on-with-ketsui-death-label-sort-of/), and more videos (http://www.siliconera.com/2008/08/25/lets-take-another-look-at-ketsui-death-label/) of the game in action.

[Sei]

Day one.

[jeffx]

Day one.

Didn't expect anything less from you. Well played!

[Sei]

Thanks! I'm actually a big fan of shooters in general, some more than others :)

[Kakizaki]

I would day one as well.

[dragonlife29]

I'm not very skilled at SHMUPS, and don't why I buy them...but this looks fun! :D

I think the only ones I have are Castle of Shikigami III (horrible at it), and Bangai-O Spirits (kinda bad at it, too...). I have been interested in R-Type Command as well, since it's $20.

[Kakizaki]

R-Type Command isn't a shmup.

[dragonlife29]

Oh, then a sidescrolling shooter...right?

[Kakizaki]

^lol, no. Shmups can be vertical or horizontal.

While R-Type generally is a shmup franchise, R-type Command is a turn based strategy game.

[dragonlife29]

Ah; gotcha.

[jj984jj]

I support this and I know Arika and 5pb are different companies, but it doesn't make much sense to pick this up and not the full version coming out on the 360 recently dated for the end of January.

[jeffx]

Somehow, and this is not based on anything but my gut instinct, this DS game has a lot more chance to come out here than the 360 game. There are rumors of 50K minimum print run (http://kotaku.com/5064895/is-microsoft-making-it-harder-for-small-developers) out there, and while the 360 is the de facto system for SHMUPs in Japan, it still hasn't reached that status here (other than the XBLA offerings). This definitely puts the kibosh on other fantastic 360 SHMUPs (http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=597964) that deserve to be picked up.

On the other hand, Nintendo doesn't give a damn about what comes out on the DS/Wii. All that shovelware is digging a hole deeper than the Kola Superdeep Borehole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kola_Superdeep_Borehole), which makes me that much angrier when good games like Ketsui are likely to be passed up on.

I'd say Death Smiles, especially with its recent prettification (http://www.siliconera.com/2008/10/16/im-drooling-over-deathsmiles-rearrange-mode/), stands a much better chance than the straight-up arcade-to-360 port of Ketsui.

^lol, no. Shmups can be vertical or horizontal.

No love for Zaxxon/Philosoma/isometric shooters??

[Kakizaki]

^Ah, except there hasn't been a de facto system for shmups here for years.



No love for Zaxxon/Philosoma/isometric shooters??

Let's not get ticky-tack. I'm pretty certain my collection of shmups would dwarf almost anyone here -- and possibly all of you combined. And Viewpoint destroys both of those titles. ;)

[jeffx]

That's why I said in Japan, no?? I don't get it.

But do you seriously mean that Viewpoint > Philosoma comment?
Though to be fair I only played the PSX version.

[Sanctine]

Day one, although I'm not as big a fan of portable shooters as I am of ones on home consoles.

[edit] I love Viewpoint. Played the #### out of it on the NeoGeo.

[Kakizaki]

That's why I said in Japan, no?? I don't get it.

But do you seriously mean that Viewpoint > Philosoma comment?
Though to be fair I only played the PSX version.

You did, but my point was that remark has no real bearing on what happens here.

Yes, I did mean Viewpoint is greater than Philsoma, but you some of guys need to chill -- you know what I am talking about. I even used a emoticon.

[Yan Can Cook]

I'm going to pick this up today. It sucks it's a boss rush only game but I'm still ok with that. Plus Cave has yet to fail with the quality of their shmups.

[Kakizaki]

Here is the thing too.....As much as I would love to see more shooters localized here, shooters on the DS are almost pointless in that there is no region protection and shooters aren't exactly difficult to crack language barrier-wise.

[Sei]

But what about the plot!

[Yan Can Cook]

But what about the plot!

I'm actually quite surprised that some of these games still actually have a story. Even when they do they usually don't have any kind of ending to go with it. :confused:

[choco]

Here is the thing too.....As much as I would love to see more shooters localized here, shooters on the DS are almost pointless in that there is no region protection and shooters aren't exactly difficult to crack language barrier-wise.

But then if it's so easy to translate why don't they localize it and sell it for those of us who don't want to go through play-asia?

Or because there just wouldn't be enough sales to justify the production costs?

I'm not sure if I would day one this or borrow it from a friend first to see if it's worth it. I'm half-half on shmups.

[Kakizaki]

I'm not sure if I would day one this or borrow it from a friend first to see if it's worth it. I'm half-half on shmups.

^I think you just answered your own question right here.

There are plenty of other importers besides PA as well, although I know some people are put off by the higher prices for Japanese DS games. But if it is something you really want, I don't think it is a big deal.

[Sei]

It doesn't help that quite a few shooters have had most terrible localizations, like Ikaruga for GQ, where they just went and removed all text.

[Kakizaki]

^True, or worse they remove options such as tate mode.

[Yan Can Cook]

Man I'm really torn on this game. On one hand it's really fun and I'm enjoying trying to beat the harder difficulties quite a bit. On the other, it makes me want to play the actual full game sooo bad. :very_sad: What a tease.

[Lou Diamond Phillips]

For all the shortcomings this game has, it totally fills my shmup cravings on DS.

I hope Cave puts out more DS stuff. You hear that Atlus? Make it happen.

[Zeether]

It doesn't help that quite a few shooters have had most terrible localizations, like Ikaruga for GQ, where they just went and removed all text.
But the XBLA version has the text translated...and some stuff tweaked as well.

[Kain Mare]

I'll day one this. I've been getting into the SHUMPS genre. Huge turn ons where Castle Shikigami II and some Japanese SHUMP that dealt with women and flowers... I can't remember the name for the life of me right now.

22 and a bad memory... God I suck.

[cj iwakura]

Didn't Arika make Technic Beat? Definitely a good sign for them.


Kain, you're referring to the Touhou series. Imperishable Night, Mountain of Faith, something something Immaterial Power, etc.

[Zeether]

This is a great game even though it's just a boss rush (well, unless you count the 2-player vs mode and the mini-stage 3 Canal section with the midboss). Even if you suck, it gives you plenty of lives so you can just bomb on the hard patterns :P I would love for Atlus to bring it here.

[Einherjar]

I smell touhou.
Well, it's true there are many japanese shooter games that involve overwhelming horde of bullets, but touhou always comes to mind. I supposed it can't hurt having that stuff on a ds, but why would you need it to be localized? Is language so important in a game like this?

[jeffx]

for the survival of the genre in this barren land.

[Zeether]

There's some dialogue that may need translation. Not much though.

[jeffx]

Still haven't given up on this! If someone has the balls to pick up Raiden Fighters Aces... this should be a no-brainer.

[VMan]

Still haven't given up on this! If someone has the balls to pick up Raiden Fighters Aces... this should be a no-brainer.

Exact same reason I haven't given up on Raiden IV and Deathsmiles.

[sfried]

Not quite sure on the Day One, but I'm definitely up for this considering I need more shmups in my life.

[kuponick]

Day one for me ! I'd buy any Cave shmup on day one !

Picture this : if Atlus or some other company picks this up (or any other Cave shmup), it would be the first Cave title EVER released in North America. Surely it would be possible to build some buzz around such an event, right ??

Now that the game is back ordered (on Play-Asia anyway), we can only hope... and don't check this out on ebay or you'll cry :very_sad:

[jeffx]

It would be the first Cave title EVER released in North America.

Nah bro, Princess Debut holds this title, then SMT: Imagine of course. First Cave SHMUP though? Yup.

I saw the eBay prices this weekend... OMG.

[kuponick]

I had forgotten about SMT online, but Princess Debut... man I can't believe that one. No offence to Princess fans (?) but I find it very lame this is the only Cave title introduced to the west so far (at retail).

I would be very curious to know how much copies Natsume managed to sell. Surely Ketsui would fare better, right ? Right ?!?

Somehow if Atlus could unite the shmup community with their new Atlus Online... they could include leaderboards, online challenges, tips, videos and some much needed "educational info" to the misunderstood shmup genre.

[Tatsuki]

If it's Ketsui, wouldn't it be better to ask for the 360 version? Since that's the full game and all, iirc the DS version is just a boss rush of sorts.

[Zeether]

The DS version has slightly different scoring mechanics than the arcade game. You now get yellow multiplier chips for landing laser hits on a boss and using bombs turns bullets into chips.

It's possible to actually score 1 billion or more points if you know what to do.

[gsl]

It would be the first Cave title EVER released in North America.

Nah bro, Princess Debut holds this title, then SMT: Imagine of course. First Cave SHMUP though? Yup.

Well, if you want to be REALLY technical about it, both Donpachi and Progear no Arashi got (fairly small) arcade releases here back in the day--Donpachi was actually published by Atlus, though I'm not sure if the North American branch of the company had anything to do with the distribution. ;)

Ketsui Death Label would indeed be a much easier localization than any of Atlus' current products. The Japanese text is not at all present in the actual gameplay, and is only present in various menu descriptions and in the Oshiete! IKD-san section. This section features characters from the original arcade game conversing with Tsuneki Ikeda, lead programmer for most Cave titles (including of course Ketsui). There are little questions on the scoring systems for both the DS and arcade versions of the game, as well as some downright wacky banter, but none of it is terribly long or complex in the least.

Ensuring the game would be worth the licensing cost is going to be a much steeper battle than the actual localization. Cave's games occupy a tiny niche (2D manic shooters) of a rather niche (arcade gaming) market as far as Japanese games go, and despite fairly impressive sales numbers of Ketsui DS in Japan it would be difficult to argue that the sales weren't spurred in a large amount by fans of the original arcade release. Here in the states arcades are nearly dead, and shooters are such a niche property that they are usually released as semi-budget titles (Castle of Shikigami III, the poorly-named Ultimate Shooting Collection) or download-only releases where unsold stock holds no risk (Ikaruga, Triggerheart Exelica, etc.). We wouldn't have the influence of the arcade version to drive the sales of the game here, which would make an especially tough sell--Nanostray and its sequel didn't exactly sell in record numbers.

Licensing the title itself might be the biggest hurdle, though. To make a broad generalization, there are some small- to medium-sized Japanese companies, especially those engaged with rather niche genres, which tend to take a rather pessimistic view of western (e.g. non-Japanese) receptivity to their work. The oft-told story of Nintendo's conviction that western audiences 'wouldn't get' the real Super Mario Bros. 2 is an attitude that still can occasionally be found today. I'm not saying that this is the case with Cave/Arika (or 5pb, if we're talking about Ketsui EX), but there's that possibility that the companies would be reluctant to deal with a localization on those grounds. To be fair, sales of 2D shooters in western markets would confirm those suspicions.

I suppose I sound like quite the killjoy, which I don't intend to be--I'd love for nothing more than to see the game on shelves here (maybe even with the superplay DVD!), but there are a lot of factors to consider in a potential localization, all of which would be more troublesome than the localization work itself. I imported the game on release and absolutely love it for its depth and how it captures the general feel of the arcade version, and I would instantly shell out for a localized copy should that become available. It's just that our market isn't the best-looking where 2d shooters are concerned, much less ones on the DS. :frown:

[kuponick]

Very intereting comments you make, gsl.

To make a broad generalization, there are some small- to medium-sized Japanese companies, especially those engaged with rather niche genres, which tend to take a rather pessimistic view of western (e.g. non-Japanese) receptivity to their work.

This could be the case with Cave. Another way to view it would be that Cave might be reluctant to make a "cheaper" version of their games available. For years now, Cave's games have seen only limited production runs which results with high demand from collectors and dare I say, ebayers.

So what would happen if a company like Atlus decided to release Ketsui over here ? The prices on ebay would likely go down a little. Good for the customer, bad for Cave. By bad I mean that if their games become more available, the resellers on ebay will stock less of Cave's next game.

This all sounds a bit stupid really, but I would be very curious to know the ratio of resellers vs. "real customers" who buy Cave games on day one.

[gsl]

This could be the case with Cave. Another way to view it would be that Cave might be reluctant to make a "cheaper" version of their games available. For years now, Cave's games have seen only limited production runs which results with high demand from collectors and dare I say, ebayers.

I'd argue against Cave's reluctance to make cheaper versions of their games by pointing to console ports of their arcade titles, three of which (Mushihimesama, Ibara, and the upcoming Deathsmiles) have even been programmed by Cave themselves. They could focus entirely on producing arcade titles and just expect the dedicated (and hardcore) to shell out $1000+ on day one for the PCB. As a slightly offtopic side note, I had the pleasure of attending an event held by Cave in September of 2007 in which they demoed a playable version of Ketsui DS (just the Doom battle which you downloaded through some weird variation on the DS Download Play). Part of this event was a talk given by Ichiro Mihara of Arika and Tsuneki Ikeda, one of the main programmers at Cave. At one point Mihara asked how many people in the audience owned an original Ketsui arcade board (which is out-of-print but still available on secondary markets e.g. eBay or Yahoo Japan Auctions) and a flurry of hands shot up, while none of the speakers batted an eye. So the company's definitely aware of the fanbase who would pay to own the original arcade version of their games; I'd speculate that if they wanted to put any sort of kibosh on lesser expensive versions of their games, they'd just stick with straight arcade titles and not allow for any console ports whatsoever.


So what would happen if a company like Atlus decided to release Ketsui over here ? The prices on ebay would likely go down a little. Good for the customer, bad for Cave. By bad I mean that if their games become more available, the resellers on ebay will stock less of Cave's next game.

I'd go out on a limb and say that I don't quite think Japanese developers and publishers are too concerned about resale of their titles on eBay. As far as the sale of imports go, entities like Play-Asia or NCSX would be more important to Japanese publishers than would eBay sellers, as they buy their titles direct from distributors in Japan. EBay sellers generally either purchase the games new from retail or used from gameshops, so any artificially inflated price you pay on eBay is going into that seller's pocket and not e.g. Cave's. Since importers are such a small part of the general gaming market here in the US, a localized title would probably sell far more units and therefore, be more profitable to the parent company in the form of licensing fees.

Please note that I don't fancy myself any kind of expert on the business of game licensing; it's all just speculation based on what little I do know.

[sfried]

Licensing the title itself might be the biggest hurdle, though. To make a broad generalization, there are some small- to medium-sized Japanese companies, especially those engaged with rather niche genres, which tend to take a rather pessimistic view of western (e.g. non-Japanese) receptivity to their work. The oft-told story of Nintendo's conviction that western audiences 'wouldn't get' the real Super Mario Bros. 2 is an attitude that still can occasionally be found today. I'm not saying that this is the case with Cave/Arika (or 5pb, if we're talking about Ketsui EX), but there's that possibility that the companies would be reluctant to deal with a localization on those grounds. To be fair, sales of 2D shooters in western markets would confirm those suspicions.

Here we go again...having perception of what "western culture" doesn't get using America as a basis.

Didn't you know how big shmups were in the UK and Europe, so much some companies (like Factor 5!) even released games with seemingly Japanese names, like Apidya? And what about that French documentary about shmups (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpUN72-bn4A&fmt=18)?

Don't make broad generalizations that are clearly wrong. Assumption is the brother/mother/any other sucker of all ****-ups. Heck, even Blast Works (Kenta Cho's commercial stuff) got some favorable reception here...

[jeffx]

bordel, il est tres bon le documentaire. putain de merde. les shooting games!

[gsl]

Here we go again...having perception of what "western culture" doesn't get using America as a basis.

Didn't you know how big shmups were in the UK and Europe, so much some companies (like Factor 5!) even released games with seemingly Japanese names, like Apidya? And what about that French documentary about shmups (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpUN72-bn4A&fmt=18)?

Don't make broad generalizations that are clearly wrong. Assumption is the brother/mother/any other sucker of all ****-ups. Heck, even Blast Works (Kenta Cho's commercial stuff) got some favorable reception here...
I'm not sure that it would be terribly out of line to remind you that, for quite a while Europe has essentially been the 'red-headed stepchild' of the gaming world. How many times have major titles or even systems been delayed months at a time for no apparent reason? Take the DS for example: despite having multiple language settings on even the Japanese machines, it was released in Europe/the UK a good four months after the US launch. For some countries there are obviously issues of translation before a game can be released, but that still doesn't explain why titles already in English take so long to hit the UK. And most of the time Australia has it even worse. Like it or not, and not to say this is at all correct, in most cases the Japanese perception (broadly speaking, once again) of "western markets" only goes as far as the good ol' US of A.

Europe at least is indeed a good deal more receptive to 2D shooters than the US -- for example, both the Gunbird and Psyvariar titles got budget releases on the PS2, and the publishers even had the decency to release Gunbird as itself, and not that horrible travesty Mobile Light Force that we got here. I've seen the French documentary as well; it was very well done, enjoyable, and well-received by gaming sites and forums online, but to my knowledge it didn't exactly make waves in the general gaming scene either here or there. Mario Kart Wii was noted as being the top-selling game worldwide in 2008, having sold some five million units in the US and close to 2 million in the UK; shooters no matter how well done or how well received are just a drop in the bucket sales-wise. With numbers like that, you can't blame companies for generally looking to the US market first. Compare this to the sales of Ketsui DS in Japan, which only sold around 20,000 units. Thanks to the small development team, this was still a success on account of the overwhelming popularity of the DS and the original arcade title. I've yet to hear of Ketsui being found in the wild here in the states and to my best knowledge there's only one that surfaces from time to time in an arcade in England. And the DS, while popular both here and in Europe, doesn't have the massive popularity or market penetration it enjoys in Japan, trust me.

It's not a question of reception or critical acclaim or fanbase, either here or in the European markets--it's about sales numbers and perceived market, pure and simple. Some of the largest publishers--names like Nintendo and Konami and Capcom, usually ones with offices in markets outside of Japan, are of course willing to take risks and are getting much better about worldwide releases in a short span of time, but for a company that has to rely on a foreign publisher, they're first going to look for the market with the largest possible sales base. No assumption required to notice which one that is.

[dungeon_man]

If it's Ketsui, wouldn't it be better to ask for the 360 version? Since that's the full game and all, iirc the DS version is just a boss rush of sorts.

More people have a DS than a 360.
The DS Ketsui game actually exists.
The DS doesn't have a 50,000 minimum print run requirement.

More specific to myself:
I have a DS and no intention of buying a 360.
I have plenty of good console shmups, so I'm more interested in a solid portable offering. (Space Invaders Extreme was awesome, btw)

[Kakizaki]

^I don't even own a 360 yet but I would prefer the 360 version. It is easy enough just to import the DS version.

[System_Error]

If it's Ketsui, wouldn't it be better to ask for the 360 version? Since that's the full game and all, iirc the DS version is just a boss rush of sorts.

More people have a DS than a 360.
The DS Ketsui game actually exists.
The DS doesn't have a 50,000 minimum print run requirement.

More specific to myself:
I have a DS and no intention of buying a 360.
I have plenty of good console shmups, so I'm more interested in a solid portable offering. (Space Invaders Extreme was awesome, btw)

DS's are region free, 360's are not. Therefore 360 version is more important

[dungeon_man]

^I don't even own a 360 yet but I would prefer the 360 version. It is easy enough just to import the DS version.

Have you looked at what it would cost to do that lately?

Anyway, the point is that we can all beg for the 360 version after it actually exists. The DS version exists now. (Or existed a few months ago...)

[VMan]

If it's Ketsui, wouldn't it be better to ask for the 360 version? Since that's the full game and all, iirc the DS version is just a boss rush of sorts.

More people have a DS than a 360.
The DS Ketsui game actually exists.
The DS doesn't have a 50,000 minimum print run requirement.

More specific to myself:
I have a DS and no intention of buying a 360.
I have plenty of good console shmups, so I'm more interested in a solid portable offering. (Space Invaders Extreme was awesome, btw)

DS's are region free, 360's are not. Therefore 360 version is more important

Just to be clear, though, the 360's region protection up to the publisher and not mandatory. There are NTSC-J Xbox 360 games that are that are not locked to that region.

[Kakizaki]

Have you looked at what it would cost to do that lately?lol, lately? Japanese DS games have typically always cost more than U.S. ones, and I'm well aware of it (that is pretty much the way it has been for all handhelds and consoles -- not just lately). SE already stated why I think the way that I do regarding this:

DS's are region free, 360's are not. Therefore 360 version is more important

Also...

Just to be clear, though, the 360's region protection up to the publisher and not mandatory. There are NTSC-J Xbox 360 games that are that are not locked to that region.

Right, but there are still games that are locked. It still isn't as universally region free as the DS. I know you know that. Just saying...

[dungeon_man]

Have you looked at what it would cost to do that lately?lol, lately? Japanese DS games have typically always cost more than U.S. ones, and I'm well aware of it (that is pretty much the way it has been for all handhelds and consoles -- not just lately).

I think you missed the part where the game is sold out and people are asking $120 for it on eBay.


Anyway, this thread is about the DS game. I thought moderators try to keep discussions on topic.

[Kakizaki]

^You are right. I totally did miss that - although I don't use Ebay as a gauge for prices either. Even when a game is hard to come by.

Anyway, this thread is about the DS game. I thought moderators try to keep discussions on topic.

Dude, no reason to be snippy. This is a fairly low traffic board and this happens to be a fairly low traffic topic. If you consider the banter in here to be off topic, you seriously need to lighten up.

[dungeon_man]

Dude, no reason to be snippy. This is a fairly low traffic board and this happens to be a fairly low traffic topic. If you consider the banter in here to be off topic, you seriously need to lighten up.

You're right. I apologize. I was getting tired of every DS post being responded to with "360 version is more important," but nothing we say here affects anything anyway.

[Kakizaki]

^I can see why you would want the DS version. I'm glad if any shooter makes it here. I can also see why you would become frustrated regarding the DS versus 360 version discussions. Plus, I knew the game was hard to come by, but not quite to the degree it is now, so I was off.

Personally, I want the full version. So if it were between the two, I would pick the 360. If we could get both, great! I also can be a little bit of a spaz with shooters, so when it is on a handheld, some of my movements make it a tad more difficult for my old eyes to keep up with the action.

As long as people aren't bashing each others brains out in these threads, I'm cool with disagreement. That is why I haven't done much. Plus, I encourage any discussion about shooters. ;)

If you are interested, the next time I see a copy come up with a seller I know gets this type of stuff, I will PM you.

[System_Error]

I also didn't know Ketsui DS was out of print so I apologize,


So Atlus!

Both!

[gamerdood]

Day One!

[-Oath]

I imported first day, VERY glad I did. This game got me into SHMUPS, got Ikaruga for the GC soon after.

[jeffx]

Still hot in my mind.

[AbsyntheDelacroix]

Bump for great justice.

[kat_ears_kahrain]

Woo! DS Shooter! NEED NEED NEED!!

*foams at the mouth and falls over*

[henbayward]

Looks great-- and would you look at that box art? How come American games don't have box art like that? *sigh*

[dungeon_man]

I just noticed that we have not yet gotten a North American release of Ketsui: Death Label. Please remedy this situation.

Oh, and PS2 Ibara. Gotta hurry, the system's deep into it's twilight.

[LordGeo]

2D shooters are always welcome, boss rush or not, on the DS.

I'd be really tempted if this was announced...

[jeffx]

I just noticed that we have not yet gotten a North American release of Ketsui: Death Label. Please remedy this situation.

Oh, and PS2 Ibara. Gotta hurry, the system's deep into it's twilight.

You make a good point. While the PS2 will by far outlive the PS1, its little brother got a lot more cool games towards the end of its lifespan due to Sony not giving a damn anymore. We're not seeing the equivalent to games like Gekioh: Shooting King (http://www.insertcredit.com/reviews/gekioh/index.html) and that kinda bugs me. I guess all those flash-in-the-pan publishers moved to the Wii.

Also Europe got Psyvariar Complete but we didn't. Now that REALLY sucks. It's a Success game! Atlus USA, why did you ignore it??!?!??!?

[dungeon_man]

I know. I've waiting for the PS2 to start getting a bunch of late-life shmups from budget publishers, but it's just not happening. IIRC, RAIDEN III from two years ago is the most recent PS2 shmup released in NA. Sad thing is they're still coming out in Japan. Fantasy Zone Collection, TF VI, THE Enhanced all within the past half year or so.


Oh, and let's not forget about K:DL. (Gotta pretend I'm on topic.)

[thinkfreemind]

I tried to import this once before, but the site I used said they didn't have any more. I would love to play this game. DeathSmiles too!

[rapoon]

^Ah, except there hasn't been a de facto system for shmups here for years.



No love for Zaxxon/Philosoma/isometric shooters??

Let's not get ticky-tack. I'm pretty certain my collection of shmups would dwarf almost anyone here -- and possibly all of you combined. And Viewpoint destroys both of those titles. ;)


put your junk back in your pants. :D

PC Engine & games are boxed so I won't count those. However, I have a nice little spot amongst the rest of my games for my shmups. Totalling my PCB's, DC, PSX and PS2 games = 73 shmups. I'm referring to proper 2d shooters. Not including rails like Sin & Punishment or Rez.

[rapoon]

I know. I've waiting for the PS2 to start getting a bunch of late-life shmups from budget publishers, but it's just not happening. IIRC, RAIDEN III from two years ago is the most recent PS2 shmup released in NA. Sad thing is they're still coming out in Japan. Fantasy Zone Collection, TF VI, THE Enhanced all within the past half year or so.


Oh, and let's not forget about K:DL. (Gotta pretend I'm on topic.)

Those budgets youre waiting for are never coming. =( (I want them too)

I got a mint copy of DonPachi for $50.00. DoDonPachi was closer to $100.

shooters are a small niche, but you won't find a more dedicated fan-base. As long as the niche remains small, the games are good and demand from the players is high - they'll be expensive as hell. DoDonPachi - 10 years later, still one of the best shmups. It's taken me years and thousands of dollars to put together my collection. :very_sad:

Raiden fighter aces is coming stateside in May on the 360. $20.

[dungeon_man]

Arika found some old stock of Ketsui: Death Label. They are being dumped on Amazon Japan.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B0019JPGCS

They are going for 5,800 Yen (~$63), and will be available on August 1. This is the original release with the arcade superplay DVD. (There is no other version.) I had a friend in Japan order me a copy. Anybody who wants this game should do the same.

[bucklemyshoe]

http://www.play-asia.com/SOap-23-83-a120-71-br-77-1-49-en-15-ketsui-84-j-70-3qfx.html

KETSUI LIMITED EDITION FOR 360 WENT ON PRE-ORDER TODAY

[sfried]

Day -30. That's how bad we need DS shmups.

I know there were a couple made for DSiWare already but so far they haven't been released here. Here's hoping for CAVE to make Mushihimesama DS or something.

[Einherjar]

Wow, this looks sick, it's like touhou...

[sfried]

Wow, this looks sick, it's like touhou...

Why does everybody compare every bullet hell shooter to Touhou? It's as if that "franchise" invented bullet hell, and I know as hell it didn't.

[Einherjar]

I do find it most awesome though. That, and I don't have much contact with other bullet hell games. At least, not one with as much bullet as that.

[sfried]

I do find it most awesome though. That, and I don't have much contact with other bullet hell games. At least, not one with as much bullet as that.
Ever tried DoDonPachi and the other Cave games?

[Einherjar]

I saw a few shots and most of them don't have as half as much as Touhou. Is it because they're faster?

[dungeon_man]

I didn't count the bullets, but my experience with Touhou games suggests that they're more interested in making a pretty pattern than killing the player. Bullets in Cave games are generally more targeted and faster moving.

The danmaku/bullet hell genre is widely regarded as being the invention of Tsuneki Ikeda with 1993's Batsugun at Toaplan and, after Toaplan went under, 1995's DonPachi when Cave was formed.

Touhou's first danmaku was released in 1997.

Oh, and here's a video of Ketsui:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU_T22FmIfQ

[Zoltor]

I'm surprised that's a DS title, I would've guessed such a game would be put on the wii.

If this game came out, I would buy it for sure, however it wouldn't be a first day(that's reserved for stuff like "Wizardry", hint hint ATLUS).

[sfried]

How many Cave games has Atlus published so far?

The international release of Death Smiles should convince the company that there is a sizable amount of shmup fans out there.

I saw a few shots and most of them don't have as half as much as Touhou. Is it because they're faster?It's because those shots are taken from the easy levels. dungeon_man has his info right with Batsugun.

Too many people think Touhou was the origin of bullet hell shooters which is a misnomer, not to mention half those people only play it for the little girls.

[dungeon_man]

I'm surprised that's a DS title, I would've guessed such a game would be put on the wii.

If this game came out, I would buy it for sure, however it wouldn't be a first day(that's reserved for stuff like "Wizardry", hint hint ATLUS).

Sorry, I may have caused some confusion. That is the arcade version of Ketsui, used to illustrate the aggressive bullet patterns for the Touhou argument.

However, here is the same boss battle on the DS game. It starts fairly easy and the difficulty ramps up each time you kill it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxPhPvL2pUU

[Einherjar]

It's because those shots are taken from the easy levels. dungeon_man has his info right with Batsugun.

Too many people think Touhou was the origin of bullet hell shooters which is a misnomer, not to mention half those people only play it for the little girls.

Yeah, but how many have bullets forming into lasers and reverse? I've seen some bullet hells, but none as... colourful and creative. In any case, you still can't deny that Touhou is the most prominent of the genre, and you can't expect someone who is never interested in shooting much to know everything about it.

[dungeon_man]

In any case, you still can't deny that Touhou is the most prominent of the genre

I'll deny it.

Touhou is not bullet-hell's spokesperson. People who are fans of the genre acknowledge Touhou, appreciate it's existence, and recognize that it broadens the STG genre's audience, but they usually play something else.

Touhou is most popular among people who are more interested in Japanese culture, storytelling, and pretty graphics than they are in shooting games. You said so yourself.

Yeah, but how many have bullets forming into lasers and reverse? I've seen some bullet hells, but none as... colourful and creative. ... and you can't expect someone who is never interested in shooting much to know everything about it.

That's cool, BTW. Your perspective of bullet-hell STGs comes from your experience with Touhou. There's nothing wrong with that. We're just trying to explain one simple thing:

Touhou is neither the alpha nor the omega.

[jeffx]

I get a bigger kick out of Touhou-derived doujin than the games themselves. As much as I respect ZUN's success story, I'll go to CAVE for hardcore shooters.

[Zoltor]

I'm surprised that's a DS title, I would've guessed such a game would be put on the wii.

If this game came out, I would buy it for sure, however it wouldn't be a first day(that's reserved for stuff like "Wizardry", hint hint ATLUS).

Sorry, I may have caused some confusion. That is the arcade version of Ketsui, used to illustrate the aggressive bullet patterns for the Touhou argument.

However, here is the same boss battle on the DS game. It starts fairly easy and the difficulty ramps up each time you kill it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxPhPvL2pUU

Oh ok.

[Kakizaki]

In any case, you still can't deny that Touhou is the most prominent of the genre

I'll deny it.

Touhou is not bullet-hell's spokesperson. People who are fans of the genre acknowledge Touhou, appreciate it's existence, and recognize that it broadens the STG genre's audience, but they usually play something else.

Touhou is most popular among people who are more interested in Japanese culture, storytelling, and pretty graphics than they are in shooting games. You said so yourself.

Yeah, but how many have bullets forming into lasers and reverse? I've seen some bullet hells, but none as... colourful and creative. ... and you can't expect someone who is never interested in shooting much to know everything about it.

That's cool, BTW. Your perspective of bullet-hell STGs comes from your experience with Touhou. There's nothing wrong with that. We're just trying to explain one simple thing:

Touhou is neither the alpha nor the omega.


I concur on both of your responses here DM. I'm not the biggest fan of bullet hell, but I really get tired of people constantly referring to Touhou when referencing the aforementioned sub genre. I feel people tend to give it a little more recognition than it deserves. In a fit of nerd rage a couple of years ago, I actually was banned from a message board (albeit a poor excuse for a message board) over the whole Touhou / bullet hell thing. It was embarrassing but it was also a little amusing.

[sfried]

I concur on both of your responses here DM. I'm not the biggest fan of bullet hell, but I really get tired of people constantly referring to Touhou when referencing the aforementioned sub genre. I feel people tend to give it a little more recognition than it deserves. In a fit of nerd rage a couple of years ago, I actually was banned from a message board (albeit a poor excuse for a message board) over the whole Touhou / bullet hell thing. It was embarrassing but it was also a little amusing.
Wow, and I thought I was the only one.

The problem with Touhou is that it derives it success out of the story and moe. The gameplay itself isn't as varied and as interesting as you'd want it to be, not to mention a lot of the levels feel samey and repetative, with little variety as to the kind of fodder enemy you've encountered. The games themseleves aren't bad, but it's the fanbase that ruins it along with the many "Marisa is mai waifu" threads that I wish I could shoot down like a Vic Viper with a Force bit. Heck even the Cotton games are more fun at times. As with most cutesy games, most people play the games more for masturbation material than actual gameplay value.I get a bigger kick out of Touhou-derived doujin than the games themselves.
Correction: I get a bigger kick out of Touhou-derived doujin games. MegaMari is worth checking out on its own.
Touhou is most popular among people who are more interested in Japanese culture, storytelling, and pretty graphics than they are in shooting games. You said so yourself.Those same people probably only go to Akihabara and Shinjuku for their "Japanese culture".

Onto Ketsui Death Label: Seems like the perfect title that screams DSiWare with it's "only boss-battles" mode.

[dungeon_man]

Onto Ketsui Death Label: Seems like the perfect title that screams DSiWare with it's "only boss-battles" mode.

Funny you should say that since, Arika's next DS shmup (an original development, not based on Cave's IP) is available on DSi-ware in Japan and is coming to Australia as Metal Torrent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqlkul8ZkrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3hthFYzWvM

Looks pretty good too. I'd imagine we'll see this in the Americas as well. Since it's got a low price-point and isn't "just a boss rush" it will probably appeal to a wider audience than a retail copy of Ketsui: Death Label would have.

If this does well, perhaps we will see Ketsui: Death Label as a downloadable at some point.

[sfried]

Onto Ketsui Death Label: Seems like the perfect title that screams DSiWare with it's "only boss-battles" mode.

Funny you should say that since, Arika's next DS shmup (an original development, not based on Cave's IP) is available on DSi-ware in Japan and is coming to Australia as Metal Torrent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqlkul8ZkrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3hthFYzWvM

Looks pretty good too. I'd imagine we'll see this in the Americas as well. Since it's got a low price-point and isn't "just a boss rush" it will probably appeal to a wider audience than a retail copy of Ketsui: Death Label would have.

If this does well, perhaps we will see Ketsui: Death Label as a downloadable at some point.Can't wait for that game, too. It's Day 1 for me once it's out here.

[Uzumakijl]

Funny you should say that since, Arika's next DS shmup (an original development, not based on Cave's IP) is available on DSi-ware in Japan and is coming to Australia as Metal Torrent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqlkul8ZkrQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3hthFYzWvM

Looks pretty good too. I'd imagine we'll see this in the Americas as well. Since it's got a low price-point and isn't "just a boss rush" it will probably appeal to a wider audience than a retail copy of Ketsui: Death Label would have.

If this does well, perhaps we will see Ketsui: Death Label as a downloadable at some point.

Cool, Never thought Aa Mujou Setsuna would be released on other place besides japan, But, I wonder why it was Australia...

Still i would like an American release of Ketsui: Death Label, It would be awesome to have the game with the superplay DVD too :tongue:

Actually, It would be rather awesome to see the game in a retail store on México... But for some reason (Which i would love to know) Not all the games you make get sold here... Anyways.

C'mon ATLUS Can't you guys work again with Cave like in the good 'ol days?

[jeffx]

I know you live there and all, so you know this, but when I worked in Mexico I couldn't believe how expensive new games could be. Prices were just atrocious, 100$ USD and up for typical Gamecube/PS2 (at the time) shovelware.

[Uzumakijl]

Yeah, Videogame/Console prices here are just brutal. I always laugh at people who says "WTF? 40$? For a game!?" When 80~90 USD is the standard price for launch titles on other countries (México is a good example),

Personally i always check bargain bins and so, That's how i got Contact for 8 USD.

(The European version, Cause things with "ATLUS" on the box are really rare on stores here... :( )

Somewhat offtopic but whatever heh.